Did a lot of the show's heart leave with Rhoda and Phyllis - Sitcoms Online Message Boards

TMC · 08-07-2025, 02:14 AM

By the final three seasons (1974-77), did The Mary Tyler Moore Show essentially become a workplace comedy? Sue Ann, never really seemed to fill the void left by Phyllis and Rhoda's departures because she as a character, felt too mean to ever be Mary’s real friend. And Georgette meanwhile, was frankly, too dumb to establish a meaningful relationship with Mary.

Howard · 08-07-2025, 05:49 PM

I really thought the show was at its best those last three seasons. Betty White and Georgette were absolutely fantastic in what they brought to the show. On the other hand I became hooked on Rhoda and the Phylis shows as well and was lucky enough to have been an audience member of both. I wonder if the public knows that these filmings took about 4-5 hours to get it right, constantly changing dialogue and re-takes!?

stevea · 08-07-2025, 07:55 PM

There was probably more of a shift to the workplace, subtle though it may have been. In the early years much comedy was part of the home environment, with Rhoda and Phyllis.

Then they were spun off, Mary moved, and any of Mary's home life was based on visits from work friends, except for a few dates.

But the work environment provided for the development of ample comedy, particularly using Sue Ann. She steps up her pursuit of Lou. She and Murray develop a one-upmanship with their zingers. Secondary characters get scripts, such as Ted and Georgette's relationship, marriage, and their adoption.

So, lots going on in those later seasons to carry things.

Duster76 · 08-07-2025, 10:18 PM

I think the first thing we need to do is separate out these two characters. Phyllis was only a regular the first two seasons, of the character's 33 appearances 11 occurred in season 1 and 12 in season 2. After that the character was seldom seen appearing in only 4 season 3 episodes, in season 4 and 5 the character made only 3 appearances in each of those seasons. Phyllis did appear briefly in the final episode of the series. Rhoda was of course a regular character appearing in 90 of the first 96 episodes. I don't think the exit of Phyllis mattered she was seldom seen after the first two seasons. The exit of Rhoda was certainly more impactful but to me the workplace episodes with Ted, Lou, Sue Ellen, and Murray along with the addition of Georgette more than made up for it.

biffbronson · 08-08-2025, 05:14 AM

From circa 1975 onward, my memories of watching the series when it first ran don't include Phyllis at all; as Duster76 detailed, comparatively she hadn't been a primary player in the cast for long. I do like Cloris and the character though.

Similarly, by the time I was older and watched TMTMS regularly in primetime, Rhoda had moved on to her own series, so I didn't really know firsthand how significant the character had been. I was finding the "heart" of the series to be the newsroom moreso than anything going on in Mary's apartment.

Howard · 08-08-2025, 04:34 PM

I assume you meant RHODA not RHONDA!

Howard · 08-08-2025, 04:37 PM

Cloris wasn't considered a regular cast member; in fact her billing at the end of her episodes stated Special Guest Star. I really enjoyed her character and wished she'd been in more episodes but i was delighted with her spinoff and sad it left after only 2 seasons.

Duster76 · 08-10-2025, 12:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Howard

I assume you meant RHODA not RHONDA!

OMG I made the same mistake twice, typos. Thanks, I'll make the corrections.

biffbronson · 08-16-2025, 07:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Howard

Cloris wasn't considered a regular cast member; in fact her billing at the end of her episodes stated Special Guest Star. I really enjoyed her character and wished she'd been in more episodes but i was delighted with her spinoff and sad it left after only 2 seasons.

I never saw Phyllis in primetime; when I did finally watch it decades later, I thought it was enjoyable and pretty funny.

weldonballou · 08-19-2025, 11:35 PM

YES. I don't like seasons 5 through 7 at all. It went on too long and I didn't like the replacements (Betty White and Georgia Engel)

stevea · 08-20-2025, 05:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Howard

Cloris wasn't considered a regular cast member; in fact her billing at the end of her episodes stated Special Guest Star. I really enjoyed her character and wished she'd been in more episodes but i was delighted with her spinoff and sad it left after only 2 seasons.

Phyllis was integral in the pilot. Cloris and Ed Asner really carried that episode.

I agree, I enjoyed her character.

DJM77 · 08-20-2025, 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by weldonballou

I didn't like the replacements (Betty White and Georgia Engel)

I'm with you on that.

08-07-2025, 02:14 AM	#1
TMC Member Forum Idol Join Date: Jan 09, 2001 Posts: 124,387	Did a lot of the show's heart leave with Rhoda and Phyllis By the final three seasons (1974-77), did The Mary Tyler Moore Show essentially become a workplace comedy? Sue Ann, never really seemed to fill the void left by Phyllis and Rhoda's departures because she as a character, felt too mean to ever be Mary’s real friend. And Georgette meanwhile, was frankly, too dumb to establish a meaningful relationship with Mary.

08-07-2025, 10:18 PM	#4
Duster76 Member Senior Member Join Date: Mar 01, 2008 Location: New jersey Posts: 1,639	I think the first thing we need to do is separate out these two characters. Phyllis was only a regular the first two seasons, of the character's 33 appearances 11 occurred in season 1 and 12 in season 2. After that the character was seldom seen appearing in only 4 season 3 episodes, in season 4 and 5 the character made only 3 appearances in each of those seasons. Phyllis did appear briefly in the final episode of the series. Rhoda was of course a regular character appearing in 90 of the first 96 episodes. I don't think the exit of Phyllis mattered she was seldom seen after the first two seasons. The exit of Rhoda was certainly more impactful but to me the workplace episodes with Ted, Lou, Sue Ellen, and Murray along with the addition of Georgette more than made up for it.
	Last edited by Duster76; 08-10-2025 at 12:02 AM. Reason: spelling

08-07-2025, 05:49 PM	#2
Howard Member Frequent Poster Join Date: Apr 23, 2003 Posts: 238	I really thought the show was at its best those last three seasons. Betty White and Georgette were absolutely fantastic in what they brought to the show. On the other hand I became hooked on Rhoda and the Phylis shows as well and was lucky enough to have been an audience member of both. I wonder if the public knows that these filmings took about 4-5 hours to get it right, constantly changing dialogue and re-takes!?

08-07-2025, 07:55 PM	#3
stevea 22 Years On Sitcoms Moderator Forum Legend Join Date: Aug 13, 2003 Location: Indy Posts: 44,161	There was probably more of a shift to the workplace, subtle though it may have been. In the early years much comedy was part of the home environment, with Rhoda and Phyllis. Then they were spun off, Mary moved, and any of Mary's home life was based on visits from work friends, except for a few dates. But the work environment provided for the development of ample comedy, particularly using Sue Ann. She steps up her pursuit of Lou. She and Murray develop a one-upmanship with their zingers. Secondary characters get scripts, such as Ted and Georgette's relationship, marriage, and their adoption. So, lots going on in those later seasons to carry things.

08-08-2025, 05:14 AM	#5
biffbronson Sentimental Fool Forum Star Join Date: Aug 22, 2009 Location: Near Notre Dame Posts: 10,265	From circa 1975 onward, my memories of watching the series when it first ran don't include Phyllis at all; as Duster76 detailed, comparatively she hadn't been a primary player in the cast for long. I do like Cloris and the character though. Similarly, by the time I was older and watched TMTMS regularly in primetime, Rhoda had moved on to her own series, so I didn't really know *firsthand* how significant the character had been. I was finding the "heart" of the series to be the newsroom moreso than anything going on in Mary's apartment.

08-08-2025, 04:34 PM	#6
Howard Member Frequent Poster Join Date: Apr 23, 2003 Posts: 238	I assume you meant RHODA not RHONDA!

08-08-2025, 04:37 PM	#7
Howard Member Frequent Poster Join Date: Apr 23, 2003 Posts: 238	Cloris wasn't considered a regular cast member; in fact her billing at the end of her episodes stated Special Guest Star. I really enjoyed her character and wished she'd been in more episodes but i was delighted with her spinoff and sad it left after only 2 seasons.

08-19-2025, 11:35 PM	#10
weldonballou Member Occasional Poster Join Date: Jul 10, 2020 Location: Michigan, USA Posts: 66	YES. I don't like seasons 5 through 7 at all. It went on too long and I didn't like the replacements (Betty White and Georgia Engel)