Top Cat: Hanna-Barbera’s Prime-Time Failure - Sitcoms Online Message Boards

TMC · 11-22-2023, 10:30 PM

Quote:

In this video, we're talking about the one and only TC, otherwise known as Top Cat!

Quote:

He's the chief. He's the king. And he might just have the most under-appreciated Hanna-Barbera series. In today's episode of "CartoonCade", Cade takes a deep dive into 1961's "Top Cat" to show just how charming of a show it is.

stevea · 11-23-2023, 08:02 AM

It's a forgotten gem.

Charles Knox · 11-23-2023, 09:51 AM

https://cartoonresearch.com/index.ph...a-and-barbera/

"Hanna: We have, all of our lives, worked with storyboards. So if a script is written, a storyboard is created. There are a lot of writers that are qualified and can write some darn good material, but they can’t draw.

Beck: Aren’t cartoon artists more creative in designing and writing cartoons?

Barbera: Oh yeah. No question.

Hanna: Yeah, that’s right.

Barbera: We did a whole series, Top Cat, we had some of the best writers in the business and the best scripts until I realized to my horror, that it was all terrific dialogue. Where were the cartoon gags? None. Earlier on The Flintstones, we had hired one of the best writers that the Honeymooners had. We had a three episode deal with him. It was a disaster. He hadn’t the faintest idea how to write for animation."

stevea · 11-23-2023, 02:09 PM

One thing I've noticed on Top Cat--they must have used different background artists on each episode, because Top Cat's alley always looked different from episode to episode..

cd637299 · 11-23-2023, 03:14 PM

The only thing that made Top Cat “cartoony” was the use of felines where humans would be! That is a good point though, about being dialogue-heavy.

As TC ripped off Sgt. Bilko, The Flintstones ripped off The Honeymooners. But the huge difference with the latter was the use of Stone Age gags. The Jetsons had futuristic gags, some (like George reading a newspaper on a large screen TV) practically having been fulfilled in 2023. However, TC was set in contemporary times.

The use of big time actors to do voices in TC may have tried to be their selling point.

I only have viewed 1990’s “Fender Bender 500” on YouTube—but I think it was cool to have both Marvin Kaplan (voice of Choo-Choo) and Arnold Stang (voice of TC) reprise those roles, despite the cartoon being “non prime time” material!

Stang did a good job on “Yogi’s Treasure Hunt,” which I felt was decent satire for all ages. One gag I recall was Boo-Boo asking Yogi “Why doesn’t Top Cat just tell us where the treasure is?” (TC only gave clues) TC answers for Yogi—“Are you kiddin’? I gotta milk this bit part for all it’s worth!”

Oh and archive dot org has “Top Cat: the Movie” from 2014. Sure it’s mostly CGI—but the writers kept the characters true to their 1961 selves. Add some cameos of one-shot characters (Jazz & Bo from the ep “All That Jazz” for example) from the old series, and you have something any TC fan would love. And it’s updated for modern times (Choo Choo checking out his smartphone).

I don’t care for a lead character being a crook or con man (con cat?), but that was Bilko too.

cd

stevea · 11-23-2023, 04:28 PM

The thing that happened with TC was the loss of credits when the color films were finally made for syndication. All the episodes run with one set of color credits--the individual show color credit negatives were probably somehow lost. So you really can't pinpoint all the different voice actors used (except the main cast).

This somehow happened with all the H-B ABC primetime animated shows when they were syndicated. Oddly, even with The Jetsons and Jonny Quest, which both aired on ABC in color. They were both eventually restored from the network masters, which corrected them both. But the original credits for the early Flintstones, Top Cat, and probably the Bugs Bunny Show (with Bugs, some of the bridging color animation was probably permanently lost, also).

cd637299 · 11-23-2023, 05:03 PM

Ah yes, the one-closing credit.

On YouTube there have been some network prints with closing in B&W. “The Late T.C.” ep has a 1962 copyright ©️ date, and Ed and Tony Love were the animators.

Recently another one came out on YT, with the original HB “script” logo! The opening was from the ep “The Tycoon”—however, the credits were not. I commented that it wasn’t “The Tycoon” because of Kenneth Muse being credited as sole animator. Muse’s style was nowhere in that ep.

Be that as it may, here’s the clip, featuring the script logo. I commented there. Seemingly by the time “Tycoon” came out, HB went to the bouncy logo that they used for the next 3 years or so (seen on the color credit TC). Also note the original lyrics!

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RQrPKgjpK3s

cd

stevea · 12-21-2023, 08:11 PM

Looking at the generic color closing, they picked an episode with just the main-character voice cast, written by Kin Platt.

The b/w credits on the link, whatever episode it is, show writer as Harvey Bullock, and Jean Vander Pyl (surprisingly lol) in the voice credits.

I checked Wikipedia, which lists writers on most TV episodes. The Top Cat episode grid does not--there probably is no source.

Is the lyric change after he's the boss, etc. I can hear the difference, but what are the lyrics. I can't make them out. (I found it in the comments).

Someone commented on the original H-B and Screen Gems logos--rare. The S-G logo was restored on The Jetsons Blu-Ray, which makes sense, since they had the original network masters.

People made Youtube comments wanting those on TC--I don't think they understand they would be getting black and white. What SHOULD be done is that the corrected credits should be colorized on any new release. Moot point, since there won't be any.

cd637299 · 12-21-2023, 08:35 PM

Just seeing all the original credits works for me, be they color or monochrome.

I never knew that the show existed with the script logo! At all!

What I hear in the original lyrics:

He’s the boss
He’s a whip
He’s the number one VIP….

I wonder why the change. “He’s the championship” in the revised lyrics sounds kinda dumb. I don’t think “whip” is bad…..as in, smart as a whip.

But I assure you, Muse was not the animator in The Tycoon. Ed Love (also credited in “The Late TC”) had a thing about head-bobs & mouth way-up when a character talks. Don Patterson was similar. Muse was known for straightforward kinda animation; nothing fancy, mainly a thin row of teeth on top + tongue slit in mouth animation.

I know…..yawwwwnnnn

cd

stevea · 12-21-2023, 10:19 PM

Here's what two sites say the lyrics are:

TOP CAT
Theme Song

Top Cat
The most effec-tu-al Top Cat
Who's intellectual close friends get to call at T. C.
Providing it's with invitee
Top Cat
The indisputable leader of the gang
He's the boss
He's the VIP
He's a championship
He's the most tip top - Top Cat

Yes he's the chief
He's the king, but above everything
He's the most tip top - Top Cat!
---------------------------
Top Cat!
The most effectual!
Top Cat!
Who's intellectual!*
Close friends get to call him "T.C.,"
Providing it's with dignity!

Top Cat!
The indisputable leader of the gang.
He's the boss, he's a VIP, he's a championship.
He's the most tip top,
Top Cat.

Yes, he's the chief, he's a king,
But above everything,
He's the most tip top,
Top Cat!

Top Cat!

(*Seems to be some debate, but should be:
"Who's (contraction) intellectual!",
not "Whose (possessive) intellectual close friends..."
Top Cat is intellectual, his close friends are not.)

I put the questionable lyric into red. I really doubt that's correct.

Neither of these account for the original lyrics.

Here's what I thought were the updated lyrics. I remember as a Kid I thoguht "with dignity" was "whipping the t," which makes no sense.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_BOeRFF5KM

cd637299 · 12-21-2023, 10:40 PM

Well, since we have taken this thread way way out….

“….Who’s intellectual” is correct.

This brings up another issue. Since he is supposedly intellectual, why can’t he think how to get him and the gang out of squalor?

[I know….same with the Professor on Gilligan’s Island…]

I don’t know whose bright idea it was to make the character Brain truly a genius in the TC comic books. The whole name was meant to be irony! One issue had him inside a fake computer get-up, answering any and every question put to him. So….why were they still poor? And Brain still LOOKED dumb in the comic books.

Where’s Dick Cavett on all this? Bwahahaha

cd

11-23-2023, 08:02 AM	#2
stevea 22 Years On Sitcoms Moderator Forum Legend Join Date: Aug 13, 2003 Location: Indy Posts: 44,176	It's a forgotten gem.

11-23-2023, 09:51 AM	#3
Charles Knox Member Senior Member Join Date: Apr 17, 2009 Posts: 1,225	https://cartoonresearch.com/index.ph...a-and-barbera/ "Hanna: We have, all of our lives, worked with storyboards. So if a script is written, a storyboard is created. There are a lot of writers that are qualified and can write some darn good material, but they can’t draw. Beck: Aren’t cartoon artists more creative in designing and writing cartoons? Barbera: Oh yeah. No question. Hanna: Yeah, that’s right. Barbera: We did a whole series, Top Cat, we had some of the best writers in the business and the best scripts until I realized to my horror, that it was all terrific dialogue. Where were the cartoon gags? None. Earlier on The Flintstones, we had hired one of the best writers that the Honeymooners had. We had a three episode deal with him. It was a disaster. He hadn’t the faintest idea how to write for animation."

11-23-2023, 02:09 PM	#4
stevea 22 Years On Sitcoms Moderator Forum Legend Join Date: Aug 13, 2003 Location: Indy Posts: 44,176	One thing I've noticed on Top Cat--they must have used different background artists on each episode, because Top Cat's alley always looked different from episode to episode..

11-23-2023, 03:14 PM	#5
cd637299 cd637299 Forum Regular Join Date: Dec 14, 2022 Location: South Florida Posts: 844	The only thing that made Top Cat “cartoony” was the use of felines where humans would be! That is a good point though, about being dialogue-heavy. As TC ripped off Sgt. Bilko, The Flintstones ripped off The Honeymooners. But the huge difference with the latter was the use of Stone Age gags. The Jetsons had futuristic gags, some (like George reading a newspaper on a large screen TV) practically having been fulfilled in 2023. However, TC was set in contemporary times. The use of big time actors to do voices in TC may have tried to be their selling point. I only have viewed 1990’s “Fender Bender 500” on YouTube—but I think it was cool to have both Marvin Kaplan (voice of Choo-Choo) and Arnold Stang (voice of TC) reprise those roles, despite the cartoon being “non prime time” material! Stang did a good job on “Yogi’s Treasure Hunt,” which I felt was decent satire for all ages. One gag I recall was Boo-Boo asking Yogi “Why doesn’t Top Cat just tell us where the treasure is?” (TC only gave clues) TC answers for Yogi—“Are you kiddin’? I gotta milk this bit part for all it’s worth!” Oh and archive dot org has “Top Cat: the Movie” from 2014. Sure it’s mostly CGI—but the writers kept the characters true to their 1961 selves. Add some cameos of one-shot characters (Jazz & Bo from the ep “All That Jazz” for example) from the old series, and you have something any TC fan would love. And it’s updated for modern times (Choo Choo checking out his smartphone). I don’t care for a lead character being a crook or con man (con cat?), but that was Bilko too. cd

11-23-2023, 04:28 PM	#6
stevea 22 Years On Sitcoms Moderator Forum Legend Join Date: Aug 13, 2003 Location: Indy Posts: 44,176	The thing that happened with TC was the loss of credits when the color films were finally made for syndication. All the episodes run with one set of color credits--the individual show color credit negatives were probably somehow lost. So you really can't pinpoint all the different voice actors used (except the main cast). This somehow happened with all the H-B ABC primetime animated shows when they were syndicated. Oddly, even with The Jetsons and Jonny Quest, which both aired on ABC in color. They were both eventually restored from the network masters, which corrected them both. But the original credits for the early Flintstones, Top Cat, and probably the Bugs Bunny Show (with Bugs, some of the bridging color animation was probably permanently lost, also).

11-23-2023, 05:03 PM	#7
cd637299 cd637299 Forum Regular Join Date: Dec 14, 2022 Location: South Florida Posts: 844	Ah yes, the one-closing credit. On YouTube there have been some network prints with closing in B&W. “The Late T.C.” ep has a 1962 copyright ©️ date, and Ed and Tony Love were the animators. Recently another one came out on YT, with the original HB “script” logo! The opening was from the ep “The Tycoon”—however, the credits were not. I commented that it wasn’t “The Tycoon” because of Kenneth Muse being credited as sole animator. Muse’s style was nowhere in that ep. Be that as it may, here’s the clip, featuring the script logo. I commented there. Seemingly by the time “Tycoon” came out, HB went to the bouncy logo that they used for the next 3 years or so (seen on the color credit TC). Also note the original lyrics! https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RQrPKgjpK3s cd

12-21-2023, 08:11 PM	#8
stevea 22 Years On Sitcoms Moderator Forum Legend Join Date: Aug 13, 2003 Location: Indy Posts: 44,176	Looking at the generic color closing, they picked an episode with just the main-character voice cast, written by Kin Platt. The b/w credits on the link, whatever episode it is, show writer as Harvey Bullock, and Jean Vander Pyl (surprisingly lol) in the voice credits. I checked Wikipedia, which lists writers on most TV episodes. The Top Cat episode grid does not--there probably is no source. Is the lyric change after he's the boss, etc. I can hear the difference, but what are the lyrics. I can't make them out. (I found it in the comments). Someone commented on the original H-B and Screen Gems logos--rare. The S-G logo was restored on The Jetsons Blu-Ray, which makes sense, since they had the original network masters. People made Youtube comments wanting those on TC--I don't think they understand they would be getting black and white. What SHOULD be done is that the corrected credits should be colorized on any new release. Moot point, since there won't be any.

12-21-2023, 08:35 PM	#9
cd637299 cd637299 Forum Regular Join Date: Dec 14, 2022 Location: South Florida Posts: 844	Just seeing all the original credits works for me, be they color or monochrome. I never knew that the show existed with the script logo! At all! What I hear in the original lyrics: He’s the boss He’s a whip He’s the number one VIP…. I wonder why the change. “He’s the championship” in the revised lyrics sounds kinda dumb. I don’t think “whip” is bad…..as in, smart as a whip. But I assure you, Muse was not the animator in The Tycoon. Ed Love (also credited in “The Late TC”) had a thing about head-bobs & mouth way-up when a character talks. Don Patterson was similar. Muse was known for straightforward kinda animation; nothing fancy, mainly a thin row of teeth on top + tongue slit in mouth animation. I know…..yawwwwnnnn cd

12-21-2023, 10:19 PM	#10
stevea 22 Years On Sitcoms Moderator Forum Legend Join Date: Aug 13, 2003 Location: Indy Posts: 44,176	Here's what two sites say the lyrics are: TOP CAT Theme Song Top Cat The most effec-tu-al Top Cat Who's intellectual close friends get to call at T. C. Providing it's with invitee Top Cat The indisputable leader of the gang He's the boss He's the VIP He's a championship He's the most tip top - Top Cat Yes he's the chief He's the king, but above everything He's the most tip top - Top Cat! --------------------------- Top Cat! The most effectual! Top Cat! Who's intellectual!* Close friends get to call him "T.C.," Providing it's with dignity! Top Cat! The indisputable leader of the gang. He's the boss, he's a VIP, he's a championship. He's the most tip top, Top Cat. Yes, he's the chief, he's a king, But above everything, He's the most tip top, Top Cat! Top Cat! (*Seems to be some debate, but should be: "Who's (contraction) intellectual!", not "Whose (possessive) intellectual close friends..." Top Cat is intellectual, his close friends are not.) I put the questionable lyric into red. I really doubt that's correct. Neither of these account for the original lyrics. Here's what I thought were the updated lyrics. I remember as a Kid I thoguht "with dignity" was "whipping the t," which makes no sense. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_BOeRFF5KM

12-21-2023, 10:40 PM	#11
cd637299 cd637299 Forum Regular Join Date: Dec 14, 2022 Location: South Florida Posts: 844	Well, since we have taken this thread way way out…. “….Who’s intellectual” is correct. This brings up another issue. Since he is supposedly intellectual, why can’t he think how to get him and the gang out of squalor? [I know….same with the Professor on Gilligan’s Island…] I don’t know whose bright idea it was to make the character Brain truly a genius in the TC comic books. The whole name was meant to be irony! One issue had him inside a fake computer get-up, answering any and every question put to him. So….why were they still poor? And Brain still LOOKED dumb in the comic books. Where’s Dick Cavett on all this? Bwahahaha cd