The HYPOCRISY of the Baseball Hall of Fame - Sitcoms Online Message Boards

TMC · 01-26-2023, 09:00 PM

LANGUAGE WARNING

Quote:

Over the past decade, players from the Steroid Era have put the Hall of Fame in a nearly impossible position -- one that has mired Cooperstown in controversy and exposed the Hall's hypocrisy on the issue. In this video, we break down the issue with letting guys like Bud Selig in while excluding greats like Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens.

Chapters:

0:00 - 0:57 The Steroid Era and the HOF
0:57 - 2:07 Bonds and Clemens
2:07 - 4:34 Bud Selig's Hypocritical Induction
4:34 - 5:28 The Overlooked Players
5:28 - 9:01 Sammy Sosa vs David Ortiz
9:01 - 11:59 Media Bias and Dick Allen

GentlemanJim · 01-27-2023, 11:46 AM

When they put Harold Baines in the HOF, that pretty much sealed the deal, as far as my skepticism.

It's probably worth mentioning that it's called "the hall of fame" and not "the shrine of excellence",,, fame being a subjective quality. But Baines, IMO, was a step too far.

Baseball is in kind of a fantasyland anyway, with the obsession with artificial metrics. Things that never show up on the scoreboard, yet people salivate over, etc.

I believe that things took a turn for the worse back when people started to notice that media darling and wonder boy Mike Trout was a little shy about producing RBI's, so his fanbois had to devise synthetic benchmarks that celebrated his capabilities

biffbronson · 01-27-2023, 01:25 PM

Maybe it's just me, but Steve Garvey, a truly dominant player of his time, should have gone in on the 1st ballot. Never inducted. Look at some of his resume items:

National League Record - consecutive games played - 1,207
4 time Gold Glove recipient
Lifetime .294 BA
NL MVP
2 time NL Championship Series MVP
10 time All-Star

Instead, Hall visitors will find such standouts as "Crime Dog" Fred McGriff.

Caroline13 · 01-27-2023, 02:44 PM

More like the Hall of Shame.

Duster76 · 01-30-2023, 12:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by biffbronson

Maybe it's just me, but Steve Garvey, a truly dominant player of his time, should have gone in on the 1st ballot. Never inducted. Look at some of his resume items:

National League Record - consecutive games played - 1,207
4 time Gold Glove recipient
Lifetime .294 BA
NL MVP
2 time NL Championship Series MVP
10 time All-Star

Instead, Hall visitors will find such standouts as "Crime Dog" Fred McGriff.

I have a lot of issues with the recent Hall of Fame selections, how does Rolen get in and Jeff Kent isn't even close. How does Mariano Rivera go in and Curt Schilling be left out. But let me address Steve Garvey.

Steve Garvey was a good ballplayer for many seasons but he falls well short of Hall of Fame standards.

His lifetime OPS is well below .800, he failed to hit even 300 homers, he was double play machine, twice leading the league in grounding into double plays and 9 times in his career being in the top 10 in that category. His lifetime OBP is very low .329.

biffbronson · 01-30-2023, 07:32 AM

Garvey also led the NL twice in hits, if we want to continue with stats.

He's #9 on this list of players who've been excluded:

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/...e-hall-of-fame

"Between 1983 and 1985, he went 194 consecutive games without committing an error, an MLB record for first basemen at that time (Kevin Youkilis has since broken the record)."

He was a clutch player who undid the Cubs in the 1984 NL Championship Series for the Padres and also was a World Series champion ('81). It's a Hall of Fame, and he was easily one of the most famous players of the '70s and early '80s.

Duster76 · 01-30-2023, 10:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by biffbronson

Garvey also led the NL twice in hits, if we want to continue with stats.

He's #9 on this list of players who've been excluded:

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/...e-hall-of-fame

"Between 1983 and 1985, he went 194 consecutive games without committing an error, an MLB record for first basemen at that time (Kevin Youkilis has since broken the record)."

He was a clutch player who undid the Cubs in the 1984 NL Championship Series for the Padres and also was a World Series champion ('81). It's a Hall of Fame, and he was easily one of the most famous players of the '70s and early '80s.

Garvey was a good player who had a good career but his numbers aren't close
to Hall of Fame level. You mentioned Fred McGriff in a derisive manner:

"Instead, Hall visitors will find such standouts as "Crime Dog" Fred McGriff".

McGriff's OPS is .886, Garvey's .775. In 14 out of his 19 seasons McGriff walked over 50 times, Garvey never accomplished this. McGriff's lifetime WAR is 52.6, Norm Cash a first baseman from the 60's to early 70's barely got a Hall of Fame vote he has a WAR of 52 and an OPS of .862 , Don Mattingly another first baseman who didn't make the Hall has a WAR of 42.4 and an OPS of .830, Garvey a WAR of 38 and again an OPS .of .775. I know you're a fan of Garvey, but you have to be realistic.

biffbronson · 02-06-2023, 05:27 AM

Let's be "realistic" and consider facts other than the offense stats and "WAR" - which is followed only by baseball stat fanatics and unknown to most sports fans, let alone the general public. Do you really believe that Hall visitors go there to see the players who came out on top in the WAR and OPS analyses? Garvey's impact on the game of baseball was clearly greater than the vast majority of players of his time, and the people who compiled the list at the site I linked to are in agreement. His defensive prowess is not to be ignored. Here are some facts:

McGriff: Zero gold gloves. -- Garvey: 4
McGriff: Zero times League MVP. -- Garvey: 1
McGriff: 5 time All-Star. -- Garvey: 10 times
McGriff: 1 time All-Star Game MVP. -- Garvey: 2 times
McGriff: "Iron Man" -- NO -- Garvey: NL "iron man" record for decades, 1207 consecutive games played...!!
The "Iron Man" achievement garnered a Sports Illustrated cover.

And here is a stat you seem to have missed in your analysis, since you've gone into offensive production in such depth:
McGriff: Lifetime BA .284 -- Garvey: .294

I am not and never have been a Dodgers or Padres fan, so I have no bias regarding Garvey. But clearly he was a true impact player and "famous" beyond so many who went into the Hall afterward -- McGriff included. I'm not necessarily denying a player like McGriff belongs in the HOF - but clearly Garvey is MORE DESERVING. Yes I was "derisive" - but that's aimed at the HOF, not a slam of McGriff.

"Steve Garvey is real, a slugging first baseman for the Los Angeles Dodgers who matches the image of any All-American boy and tosses fear into opposing pitchers and teams" - Sportswriter Sid Bordman in The Kansas City Star

My dad spent years researching pitcher Ed Reulbach, whose stats clearly indicated HOF material. Never inducted. But stats alone don't always determine impact on the game in a way that captures the public's imagination -- which is what FAME is all about. Great offensive stats don't tell the whole story. I don't want Garvey to be forgotten, that's all.

Duster76 · 02-07-2023, 12:21 AM

Garvey was famous so were:

Fred Lynn (MVP, 4 gold gloves as a centerfielder, OPS .845, WAR 50.2,

Dave Parker MVP, 3 gold gloves, OPS .810, WAR 40.1

George Foster MVP, OPS .818, WAR 44.1 only player in the 70's and 80's to hit 50 homers in a season.

Don Mattingly MVP, 9 gold gloves, OPS .830, WAR 42.4

Keith Hernandez MVP, 11 gold gloves, OPS .821 WAR 60.3

None of the above are in the Hall of Fame. The final two entries defined first base play in the AL and NL during Garvey's playing days, Hernandez first base play was legendary. I could mention a few more that fall somewhere in the Garvey range, some are better some about the same, I throw in one more in, a teammate of his:

Ron Cey no MVP awards or gold gloves, but a higher OPS than Garvey .799, and a better WAR 53.8, he also was a solid postseason performer.

The more players in the Hall the less the honor means, that said, there has been an argument made that the Hall should take a more liberal approach and allow more players in (maybe reduce the vote percentage to 50% instead of 75%). At this point in time I am not in favor of making such a change but it makes an interesting debate.

With respect to Hall attendance, the figures dropped dramatically between 2007 when over 300,000 visited and 2013 when only about 260,00 visited. Since then the attendance has been stable at about 260,000 (2018 is the last year I have figures for).

01-27-2023, 11:46 AM	#2
GentlemanJim Concerns, Support, & Feedback Forum Veteran Join Date: Dec 26, 2019 Location: The back country Posts: 5,443	When they put Harold Baines in the HOF, that pretty much sealed the deal, as far as my skepticism. It's probably worth mentioning that it's called "the hall of fame" and not "the shrine of excellence",,, fame being a subjective quality. But Baines, IMO, was a step too far. Baseball is in kind of a fantasyland anyway, with the obsession with artificial metrics. Things that never show up on the scoreboard, yet people salivate over, etc. I believe that things took a turn for the worse back when people started to notice that media darling and wonder boy Mike Trout was a little shy about producing RBI's, so his fanbois had to devise synthetic benchmarks that celebrated his capabilities
	__________________ On my word as a gentleman!

01-27-2023, 02:44 PM	#4
Caroline13 Member Forum Fanatic Join Date: Jan 30, 2021 Location: So Calif Posts: 14,483	More like the Hall of Shame.
	__________________ Inexpensive Health Insurance = Grape Seed Extract Keep It Simple

02-06-2023, 05:27 AM	#8
biffbronson Sentimental Fool Forum Star Join Date: Aug 22, 2009 Location: Near Notre Dame Posts: 10,584	Let's be "realistic" and consider facts other than the offense stats and "WAR" - which is followed only by baseball stat fanatics and unknown to most sports fans, let alone the general public. Do you really believe that Hall visitors go there to see the players who came out on top in the WAR and OPS analyses? Garvey's impact on the game of baseball was clearly greater than the vast majority of players of his time, and the people who compiled the list at the site I linked to are in agreement. His defensive prowess is not to be ignored. Here are some facts: McGriff: Zero gold gloves. -- Garvey: 4 McGriff: Zero times League MVP. -- Garvey: 1 McGriff: 5 time All-Star. -- Garvey: 10 times McGriff: 1 time All-Star Game MVP. -- Garvey: 2 times McGriff: "Iron Man" -- NO -- Garvey: NL "iron man" record for decades, 1207 consecutive games played...!! The "Iron Man" achievement garnered a Sports Illustrated cover. And here is a stat you seem to have missed in your analysis, since you've gone into offensive production in such depth: McGriff: Lifetime BA .284 -- Garvey: .294 I am not and never have been a Dodgers or Padres fan, so I have no bias regarding Garvey. But clearly he was a true impact player and "famous" beyond so many who went into the Hall afterward -- McGriff included. I'm not necessarily denying a player like McGriff belongs in the HOF - but clearly Garvey is MORE DESERVING. Yes I was "derisive" - but that's aimed at the HOF, not a slam of McGriff. "Steve Garvey is real, a slugging first baseman for the Los Angeles Dodgers who matches the image of any All-American boy and tosses fear into opposing pitchers and teams" - Sportswriter Sid Bordman in The Kansas City Star My dad spent years researching pitcher Ed Reulbach, whose stats clearly indicated HOF material. Never inducted. But stats alone don't always determine impact on the game in a way that captures the public's imagination -- which is what FAME is all about. Great offensive stats don't tell the whole story. I don't want Garvey to be forgotten, that's all.
	Last edited by biffbronson; 02-06-2023 at 06:14 AM.

01-27-2023, 01:25 PM	#3
biffbronson Sentimental Fool Forum Star Join Date: Aug 22, 2009 Location: Near Notre Dame Posts: 10,584	Maybe it's just me, but Steve Garvey, a truly dominant player of his time, should have gone in on the 1st ballot. Never inducted. Look at some of his resume items: National League Record - consecutive games played - 1,207 4 time Gold Glove recipient Lifetime .294 BA NL MVP 2 time NL Championship Series MVP 10 time All-Star Instead, Hall visitors will find such standouts as "Crime Dog" Fred McGriff.

01-30-2023, 07:32 AM	#6
biffbronson Sentimental Fool Forum Star Join Date: Aug 22, 2009 Location: Near Notre Dame Posts: 10,584	Garvey also led the NL twice in hits, if we want to continue with stats. He's #9 on this list of players who've been excluded: https://bleacherreport.com/articles/...e-hall-of-fame *"Between 1983 and 1985, he went 194 consecutive games without committing an error, an MLB record for first basemen at that time (Kevin Youkilis has since broken the record)."* He was a clutch player who undid the Cubs in the 1984 NL Championship Series for the Padres and also was a World Series champion ('81). It's a Hall of Fame, and he was easily one of the most famous players of the '70s and early '80s.

02-07-2023, 12:21 AM	#9
Duster76 Member Senior Member Join Date: Mar 01, 2008 Location: New jersey Posts: 1,657	Garvey was famous so were: Fred Lynn (MVP, 4 gold gloves as a centerfielder, OPS .845, WAR 50.2, Dave Parker MVP, 3 gold gloves, OPS .810, WAR 40.1 George Foster MVP, OPS .818, WAR 44.1 only player in the 70's and 80's to hit 50 homers in a season. Don Mattingly MVP, 9 gold gloves, OPS .830, WAR 42.4 Keith Hernandez MVP, 11 gold gloves, OPS .821 WAR 60.3 None of the above are in the Hall of Fame. The final two entries defined first base play in the AL and NL during Garvey's playing days, Hernandez first base play was legendary. I could mention a few more that fall somewhere in the Garvey range, some are better some about the same, I throw in one more in, a teammate of his: Ron Cey no MVP awards or gold gloves, but a higher OPS than Garvey .799, and a better WAR 53.8, he also was a solid postseason performer. The more players in the Hall the less the honor means, that said, there has been an argument made that the Hall should take a more liberal approach and allow more players in (maybe reduce the vote percentage to 50% instead of 75%). At this point in time I am not in favor of making such a change but it makes an interesting debate. With respect to Hall attendance, the figures dropped dramatically between 2007 when over 300,000 visited and 2013 when only about 260,00 visited. Since then the attendance has been stable at about 260,000 (2018 is the last year I have figures for).