Was "Bonanza" too formulaic and/or predictable - Sitcoms Online Message Boards

TMC · 02-13-2017, 01:59 AM

Here are most of the Bonanza stories:

A Cartwright falls in love, the woman dies.
A Cartwright falls in love, the woman is a sham and one of the boys tricks her into revealing her true motives.
Some bad guy comes to the Pondarosa and they don't suspect till it is almost too late.
Joe tricks Hoss into doing something stupid or dangerous.
Someone is trying to steal Cartwright property.
Hoss befriends an unacceptable.
Someone famous now, but unknown then comes to the Pondarosa.

MichaelKeith · 11-05-2019, 04:26 PM

Even though it was a very good show, it's true that several of the episodes are similar in format to what you describe above and thus seem formulaic. That's one reason Pernell Roberts left the show. He wanted more depth and range to the episodes and not repeating the same themes.

Duster76 · 11-05-2019, 08:08 PM

"Was "Bonanza" too formulaic and/or predictable"

How could it not be! In the first 9 seasons, 303 episodes were churned out. 7 of those seasons featured a mindboggling 34 episodes a year, the other two seasons featured 33 and 32 episodes. Law and Order reached the 303 mark at the start of season 14. Bonanza was on 14 years, Law and Order 20, there are 431 episodes of Bonanza and 456 of Law and Order. The show had to be formula driven based on the number of episodes that needed to be turned out.

Sgt. Saunders · 05-12-2022, 09:28 PM

After the tragic death of Dan Blocker, I thought that the show’s producers would bring Pernell Roberts back to reprise his role of Adam, the oldest Cartwright son. Unfortunately, Mr. Roberts never did return to the show.

After Dan Blocker’s death, they should have just ended the show. Instead, they brought in an awkward-looking teenager and wrote stories about how Ben and “Little” Joe looked out for him. Zzzz, zzzz, wow, was that boring and uninspiring. Thankfully, NBC pulled the plug on this moribund show.

Requiem aeternam, “Bonanza.”

biffbronson · 05-13-2022, 03:44 AM

Actually the teen you're referring to, Jamie Hunter played by Mitch Vogel, started on Bonanza in 1970. Blocker died in 1972. Vogel's character was "brought in" as an addition, not a replacement, though he obviously was filling a void later.

It's noteworthy too that they still had David Canary as "Candy" Canaday, whose final ep was aired in Jan. 1973.

Sgt. Saunders · 05-13-2022, 04:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by biffbronson

Actually the teen you're referring to, Jamie Hunter played by Mitch Vogel, started on Bonanza in 1970. Blocker died in 1972. Vogel's character was "brought in" as an addition, not a replacement, though he obviously was filling a void later.

It's noteworthy too that they still had David Canary as "Candy" Canaday, whose final ep was aired in Jan. 1973.

Aren’t the episodes with the precocious Jamie Hunter in them, euphemistically referred to as the “lost Bonanza episodes”? Apparently, these later “Bonanza” episodes were rarely televised in syndication. (I wonder why?) Well, those episodes were hardly “Bonanza” at its best, imo. I mean, with no Adam, no Hoss (obviously, “Bonanza’s” greatest and most beloved character), no Hop Sing, no Sheriff Coffee, the show was practically operating with a skeleton crew.

It’s like if “Star Trek” had lost Mr. Spock, Scotty and Uhura for its final season. Or if “Leave it to Beaver” had lost Eddie Haskell and “Lumpy” Rutherford for its final season. (Losing the irrepressible Larry Mondello several seasons before was bad enough.)

Nothing against Mitch Vogel, but Jamie Hunter is one of those extraneous television characters I could do without like the largely reviled Randy Pearson on “That 70s Show”
or the insufferable Chachi Arcola on “Happy Days.” And, don’t get me started on Sharon Farrell, who was on “Hawaii 5-0” for its last season after “Danno” Williams, Ben Kokua and the beloved Chin Ho “Kelly” had previously left that classic American tv show.

biffbronson · 05-13-2022, 05:00 AM

The "Lost Episodes" were spread throughout the range of Seasons 6 through 14. It goes back to syndication deals where some networks picked & chose to not air some eps whose content could fall on the objectionable end of things.

KatieAnn · 05-13-2022, 05:19 PM

They probably should have ended the show when Dan Blocker died, but that would have been sadness upon sadness. I hear the way it ended was not that great, or satisfying for the audience.

Right now we are just starting season 6, and in watching some of the season 5 episodes I was thinking the show has already hit it's peak and is winding down. I can understand why Pernell Roberts was tired of the show, or thought it was "beneath" him. But as the episodes are aired every once in a while up pops a really good one. I expect that to be the case for the rest of the series.

I guess they are predictable or follow a formula. I definitely don't expect any Cartwright to get married (although Hoss was supposed to get married in the final season and Joe ended up getting married instead) and always expect the Cartwrights to survive.

biffbronson · 05-13-2022, 07:16 PM

Since you're on Season 6, I can comment on Season 5 without worrying about spoilers. I really liked the start of the Adam Cartwright & Laura Dayton storyline, and the plan for a marriage seems to have been a good one -- finally we would have a married Cartwright instead of all bachelors among original cast, even though Adam/Pernell would be leaving.

As I understand it, Greene & Landon were dead set against having Guy Williams as a regular cast member, so off went Will Cartwright with Laura & little Peggy. I'm glad they didn't kill off Laura, but of course in effect they sent Williams to be "Lost In Space."

Among many fans Pernell Roberts and Michael Landon have long been considered remarkably handsome, and knowing that 19th century men tended to be married at young ages by later standards, their characters remaining single sort of robs the series of credibility, I think.

KatieAnn · 05-13-2022, 09:42 PM

After thinking about it, the fact that none of the men of Bonanza had much long lasting luck in love was an interesting part of the show.

Ben lost three wives, had three sons, all of them so different, and their attitudes regarding love and marriage were so different.

Even while Adam was dating Laura, he didn't seem all that invested in the relationship - and I don't think that was just Pernell not caring about the show, I take it as the character not being very interested in moving on to that next step in life. Maybe he had seen his father suffer so much with loss that he just seemed detached from taking that same traditional road to marriage.

The episodes I remember where Adam seemed to really fall in love, the women were very distinct and also out of reach in some way or another.

Hoss was just either too shy or a bit gullible when it came to women, or too skittish depending on the episodes and Joe was too in love with love, especially in early episodes.

I heard the same as you regarding Lorne Greene and Michael Landon not wanting to add another family member to the show, first when they tried to give Little Joe a half brother and then with Cousin Will. I guess it made sense that 4 four main actors made the show and they didn't want to add a family member to take the place of Adam.

But whatever the objection to adding Will, they did a good job of introducing him and establishing the character on the show and with the family, and I would have liked it if he stayed, if Pernell had to leave.

biffbronson · 05-14-2022, 05:55 AM

To me, one of the most interesting Adam Cartwright eps was in Season 1, "The Last Trophy," where the married Lady Dunsford (Beatrice) goes so far as to kiss Adam on the lips. It's one thing for a married person to be playfully flirtatious with someone who is single, but such an open move is something else. And it doesn't stop there, as one synopsis says Beatrice later tries to "seduce" him.

I think all of this helped establish Adam's character, as Beatrice is an attractive older woman, yet Adam primarily shows concern for what she's "doing" to her husband.

When I was in my 40s, I had occasion where I would be seeing a married lady in her early 60s, who had known my family well but moved away when I was about 8 years old. I was a little overwhelmed with her prolonged hugging & compliments, and several times she even rearranged the bangs on my forehead with her fingers. I was confused and thought she was trying to build my confidence, as far as I should find someone to marry. But when I later described her behavior to a friend, she thought the line of appropriateness had been crossed.

I don't recall in the western TV genre other instances of a married female character overtly pursuing a single main cast male character, though married male going for single female may have been more likely. I like that it opened up questions such as: did Adam find older women attractive, would he be the subject of future openly flirtatious behavior, would he likely be the 1st to marry, did his principles narrow the field of prospective brides?

Sgt. Saunders · 05-14-2022, 07:56 AM

I remember when the late, great Lorne Green guest-hosted “The Tonight Show” several years after “Bonanza” went off the air.

Mr. Green was seated at Johnny Carson’s desk, answering questions on cards, the studio audience had previously submitted to him. One woman asked, “Mr. Green, can you sing and whatever happened to your son, Adam, on “Bonanza”?

The former Ponderosa patriarch, replied by singing in that distinctive deep bass voice of his, “Yes I can and Adam is dead!” Of course, co-host Ed McMahon responding by laughing heartily in that trademark guffaw of his, which we all heard for so many years on “The Tonight Show.”

So, apparently: Requiem aeternam, Adam Cartwright.

KatieAnn · 05-14-2022, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by biffbronson

To me, one of the most interesting Adam Cartwright eps was in Season 1, "The Last Trophy," where the married Lady Dunsford (Beatrice) goes so far as to kiss Adam on the lips. It's one thing for a married person to be playfully flirtatious with someone who is single, but such an open move is something else. And it doesn't stop there, as one synopsis says Beatrice later tries to "seduce" him.

I think all of this helped establish Adam's character, as Beatrice is an attractive older woman, yet Adam primarily shows concern for what she's "doing" to her husband.

When I was in my 40s, I had occasion where I would be seeing a married lady in her early 60s, who had known my family well but moved away when I was about 8 years old. I was a little overwhelmed with her prolonged hugging & compliments, and several times she even rearranged the bangs on my forehead with her fingers. I was confused and thought she was trying to build my confidence, as far as I should find someone to marry. But when I later described her behavior to a friend, she thought the line of appropriateness had been crossed.

I don't recall in the western TV genre other instances of a married female character overtly pursuing a single main cast male character, though married male going for single female may have been more likely. I like that it opened up questions such as: did Adam find older women attractive, would he be the subject of future openly flirtatious behavior, would he likely be the 1st to marry, did his principles narrow the field of prospective brides?

All the Cartwrights have a basic moral decency, so to think that one of them would knowingly get "involved" with a married woman seems impossible - but yes, that woman was all about torturing her husband because she thought he had become a "coward." Adam saw through that. Adam sees through most people, most of the time. He seems like the most jaded and cynical member of the Cartwright family.

The only time I can remember Adam being truly fooled by someone was in the episode, "Showdown." The whole Cartwright family, except for Joe, completely ignored the possibility that this new hand might have been involved in a bank robbery. Joe brought it up right away, and they brushed him off or thought he was "jealous" because the hand broke the horse that threw Joe.

In the episode "The Legacy" Ben has to ponder what his sons might do, after believing Ben to be murdered - they all go after different men they think were involved in the murder. Ben has great confidence that his two older sons will not stoop to murder, and he's a little less sure of Little Joe. It turns out he didn't have to worry, he raised them all well, and they know the difference between right and wrong.

KatieAnn · 05-14-2022, 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sgt. Saunders

I remember when the late, great Lorne Green guest-hosted “The Tonight Show” several years after “Bonanza” went off the air.

Mr. Green was seated at Johnny Carson’s desk, answering questions on cards, the studio audience had previously submitted to him. One woman asked, “Mr. Green, can you sing and whatever happened to your son, Adam, on “Bonanza”?

The former Ponderosa patriarch, replied by singing in that distinctive deep bass voice of his, “Yes I can and Adam is dead!” Of course, co-host Ed McMahon responding by laughing heartily in that trademark guffaw of his, which we all heard for so many years on “The Tonight Show.”

So, apparently: Requiem aeternam, Adam Cartwright.

If it was so many years after "Bonanza" ended, at that point maybe Lorne Greene thought that all the Cartwrights were "dead and gone."

biffbronson · 05-14-2022, 03:25 PM

I really enjoyed the Season 4 ep "Knight Errant," where Hoss has won the extremely strong affection of Lottie Hawkins (played by Judi Meredith). As he's just "delivering" her to the man she's to marry, she puts Hoss in a touchy situation of sorts, and things get far worse once the prospective groom detects the potential Lottie-Hoss relationship.

It's fun to see a character show so much love for Hoss; of course he has a heart of gold, so his character is impeccable -- both as being a suitably attractive attribute, and in regard to how he goes about resolving the situation. Love the premise, it made for a memorable episode.

02-13-2017, 01:59 AM	#1
TMC Member Forum Idol Join Date: Jan 09, 2001 Posts: 126,062	Was "Bonanza" too formulaic and/or predictable Here are most of the Bonanza stories: A Cartwright falls in love, the woman dies. A Cartwright falls in love, the woman is a sham and one of the boys tricks her into revealing her true motives. Some bad guy comes to the Pondarosa and they don't suspect till it is almost too late. Joe tricks Hoss into doing something stupid or dangerous. Someone is trying to steal Cartwright property. Hoss befriends an unacceptable. Someone famous now, but unknown then comes to the Pondarosa.
	Last edited by TMC; 08-11-2017 at 02:52 AM.

11-05-2019, 04:26 PM	#2
MichaelKeith Member Senior Member Join Date: Mar 01, 2007 Posts: 1,139	Even though it was a very good show, it's true that several of the episodes are similar in format to what you describe above and thus seem formulaic. That's one reason Pernell Roberts left the show. He wanted more depth and range to the episodes and not repeating the same themes.

11-05-2019, 08:08 PM	#3
Duster76 Member Senior Member Join Date: Mar 01, 2008 Location: New jersey Posts: 1,652	"Was "Bonanza" too formulaic and/or predictable" How could it not be! In the first 9 seasons, 303 episodes were churned out. 7 of those seasons featured a mindboggling 34 episodes a year, the other two seasons featured 33 and 32 episodes. Law and Order reached the 303 mark at the start of season 14. Bonanza was on 14 years, Law and Order 20, there are 431 episodes of Bonanza and 456 of Law and Order. The show had to be formula driven based on the number of episodes that needed to be turned out.

05-12-2022, 09:28 PM	#4
Sgt. Saunders Member Forum Regular Join Date: Nov 27, 2021 Location: The Garden State Posts: 540	After the tragic death of Dan Blocker, I thought that the show’s producers would bring Pernell Roberts back to reprise his role of Adam, the oldest Cartwright son. Unfortunately, Mr. Roberts never did return to the show. After Dan Blocker’s death, they should have just ended the show. Instead, they brought in an awkward-looking teenager and wrote stories about how Ben and “Little” Joe looked out for him. Zzzz, zzzz, wow, was that boring and uninspiring. Thankfully, NBC pulled the plug on this moribund show. Requiem aeternam, “Bonanza.”

05-13-2022, 03:44 AM	#5
biffbronson Sentimental Fool Forum Star Join Date: Aug 22, 2009 Location: Near Notre Dame Posts: 10,488	Actually the teen you're referring to, Jamie Hunter played by Mitch Vogel, started on Bonanza in 1970. Blocker died in 1972. Vogel's character was "brought in" as an addition, not a replacement, though he obviously was filling a void later. It's noteworthy too that they still had David Canary as "Candy" Canaday, whose final ep was aired in Jan. 1973.

05-13-2022, 05:00 AM	#7
biffbronson Sentimental Fool Forum Star Join Date: Aug 22, 2009 Location: Near Notre Dame Posts: 10,488	The "Lost Episodes" were spread throughout the range of Seasons 6 through 14. It goes back to syndication deals where some networks picked & chose to not air some eps whose content could fall on the objectionable end of things.

05-13-2022, 05:19 PM	#8
KatieAnn Member Forum Regular Join Date: Sep 15, 2011 Posts: 520	They probably should have ended the show when Dan Blocker died, but that would have been sadness upon sadness. I hear the way it ended was not that great, or satisfying for the audience. Right now we are just starting season 6, and in watching some of the season 5 episodes I was thinking the show has already hit it's peak and is winding down. I can understand why Pernell Roberts was tired of the show, or thought it was "beneath" him. But as the episodes are aired every once in a while up pops a really good one. I expect that to be the case for the rest of the series. I guess they are predictable or follow a formula. I definitely don't expect any Cartwright to get married (although Hoss was supposed to get married in the final season and Joe ended up getting married instead) and always expect the Cartwrights to survive.

05-13-2022, 07:16 PM	#9
biffbronson Sentimental Fool Forum Star Join Date: Aug 22, 2009 Location: Near Notre Dame Posts: 10,488	Since you're on Season 6, I can comment on Season 5 without worrying about spoilers. I really liked the start of the Adam Cartwright & Laura Dayton storyline, and the plan for a marriage seems to have been a good one -- finally we would have a married Cartwright instead of all bachelors among original cast, even though Adam/Pernell would be leaving. As I understand it, Greene & Landon were dead set against having Guy Williams as a regular cast member, so off went Will Cartwright with Laura & little Peggy. I'm glad they didn't kill off Laura, but of course in effect they sent Williams to be "Lost In Space." Among many fans Pernell Roberts and Michael Landon have long been considered remarkably handsome, and knowing that 19th century men tended to be married at young ages by later standards, their characters remaining single sort of robs the series of credibility, I think.

05-13-2022, 09:42 PM	#10
KatieAnn Member Forum Regular Join Date: Sep 15, 2011 Posts: 520	After thinking about it, the fact that none of the men of Bonanza had much long lasting luck in love was an interesting part of the show. Ben lost three wives, had three sons, all of them so different, and their attitudes regarding love and marriage were so different. Even while Adam was dating Laura, he didn't seem all that invested in the relationship - and I don't think that was just Pernell not caring about the show, I take it as the character not being very interested in moving on to that next step in life. Maybe he had seen his father suffer so much with loss that he just seemed detached from taking that same traditional road to marriage. The episodes I remember where Adam seemed to really fall in love, the women were very distinct and also out of reach in some way or another. Hoss was just either too shy or a bit gullible when it came to women, or too skittish depending on the episodes and Joe was too in love with love, especially in early episodes. I heard the same as you regarding Lorne Greene and Michael Landon not wanting to add another family member to the show, first when they tried to give Little Joe a half brother and then with Cousin Will. I guess it made sense that 4 four main actors made the show and they didn't want to add a family member to take the place of Adam. But whatever the objection to adding Will, they did a good job of introducing him and establishing the character on the show and with the family, and I would have liked it if he stayed, if Pernell had to leave.

05-14-2022, 05:55 AM	#11
biffbronson Sentimental Fool Forum Star Join Date: Aug 22, 2009 Location: Near Notre Dame Posts: 10,488	To me, one of the most interesting Adam Cartwright eps was in Season 1, "The Last Trophy," where the married Lady Dunsford (Beatrice) goes so far as to kiss Adam on the lips. It's one thing for a married person to be playfully flirtatious with someone who is single, but such an open move is something else. And it doesn't stop there, as one synopsis says Beatrice later tries to "seduce" him. I think all of this helped establish Adam's character, as Beatrice is an attractive older woman, yet Adam primarily shows concern for what she's "doing" to her husband. When I was in my 40s, I had occasion where I would be seeing a married lady in her early 60s, who had known my family well but moved away when I was about 8 years old. I was a little overwhelmed with her prolonged hugging & compliments, and several times she even rearranged the bangs on my forehead with her fingers. I was confused and thought she was trying to build my confidence, as far as I should find someone to marry. But when I later described her behavior to a friend, she thought the line of appropriateness had been crossed. I don't recall in the western TV genre other instances of a married female character overtly pursuing a single main cast male character, though married male going for single female may have been more likely. I like that it opened up questions such as: did Adam find older women attractive, would he be the subject of future openly flirtatious behavior, would he likely be the 1st to marry, did his principles narrow the field of prospective brides?

05-14-2022, 07:56 AM	#12
Sgt. Saunders Member Forum Regular Join Date: Nov 27, 2021 Location: The Garden State Posts: 540	I remember when the late, great Lorne Green guest-hosted “The Tonight Show” several years after “Bonanza” went off the air. Mr. Green was seated at Johnny Carson’s desk, answering questions on cards, the studio audience had previously submitted to him. One woman asked, “Mr. Green, can you sing and whatever happened to your son, Adam, on “Bonanza”? The former Ponderosa patriarch, replied by singing in that distinctive deep bass voice of his, “Yes I can and Adam is dead!” Of course, co-host Ed McMahon responding by laughing heartily in that trademark guffaw of his, which we all heard for so many years on “The Tonight Show.” So, apparently: Requiem aeternam, Adam Cartwright.

05-14-2022, 03:25 PM	#15
biffbronson Sentimental Fool Forum Star Join Date: Aug 22, 2009 Location: Near Notre Dame Posts: 10,488	I really enjoyed the Season 4 ep "Knight Errant," where Hoss has won the extremely strong affection of Lottie Hawkins (played by Judi Meredith). As he's just "delivering" her to the man she's to marry, she puts Hoss in a touchy situation of sorts, and things get far worse once the prospective groom detects the potential Lottie-Hoss relationship. It's fun to see a character show so much love for Hoss; of course he has a heart of gold, so his character is impeccable -- both as being a suitably attractive attribute, and in regard to how he goes about resolving the situation. Love the premise, it made for a memorable episode.