Was "Rhoda" one of the most incompetently managed "hit shows" in history - Sitcoms Online Message Boards

TMC · 02-08-2022, 02:22 AM

The show had a revolving door of head writers. Nobody could figure it out, so they kept handing it off to someone else.

Mitchell/Neigher engineered the disastrous divorce and got bounced. Allan Katz and Don Reo from MASH did Season 4. Bob Ellison from The Mary Tyler Moore Show did drain-circling Season 5.

The writers claimed they didn't know how to write comedy about married people, even though The Dick Van Dyke Show and The Bob Newhart Show managed to pull it off.

They didn't develop a bench of friends or neighbors for Rhoda. So when she got divorced and the actors playing her parents got lured away to do their own shows in the third season, she was twisting in the wind. In contrast, when Rhoda herself, departed The Mary Tyler Moore Show, they brought in Sue Ann Nivens, which proved to be a genius comic creation.

TVFactFan · 02-12-2022, 01:26 AM

It looks like it was the writing because the show stayed on Monday night the first 3 seasons

JSP · 02-21-2022, 10:44 PM

I really enjoy the Season 3-5 Rhoda episodes. I never lost interest in the show.

TMC · 02-22-2022, 11:45 PM

Interesting AV Club article - How the producers of Rhoda killed the show by making it better...

TMC · 03-04-2024, 05:11 AM

As others have pointed out, homely Brenda upstaged Rhoda in the sense that she got all of Rhoda's former lines, so Rhoda became boring. Would it might have been better to have Rhoda react against a sister who was perfect?

clanoftheduck · 06-28-2024, 05:11 AM

I love Rhoda, I didn't watch it live because I was a baby, but in the mid 90's when, 70's nostalgia was at it's peak, Nick@Nite showed Rhoda in it's lineup and I first got hooked, along with TMTMS which aired with it then too.

I'm there for the full series, I enjoy it as a whole, but I agree with this threads title a little bit.

Season 3 was rough! So many changes that started then, and it really, continued seemingly to always change throughout the next 2 and a half seasons. Change is rough in real life, and sitcoms, especially when they ruled back then, were your escape from real life, even if they reflected your real life in the way your brain interacts.

The cast become like friends. The main characters home base set becomes a place you visit once a week to hang out and it feels cozy, you know it almost as well as you do your own home. Their work life feels like you're popping in to say hi there, now and then and see what the wacky coworkers are up to. But season 3 turned all of that on it's head; Joe was a different person entirely, and Rhoda changed too. Ma and Pop disappeared (because Nancy Walker left for Blansky's Beauties) Rhoda lost her business and the nicer apartment that felt so much like home before. The new supporting cast seemed to be trying real hard to fill the gaps but often came off as annoying because they felt wedged in.

Season 3 still has an undertone of sadness to it, to me, still fun, still Rhoda, but just that feeling of constant change makes you nostalgic for what it was.

I never really grew comfortable with Rhoda's new apartment, secretly rooted for her to become a huge success and could move back to the other. Never really felt connected to the later work cast, or the people in the apartment building, though I'm a big fan of Anne Meara. Rhoda herself just didn't always seem in a 'happy place' anymore, she was starting over after having reached all these life goals, so instead of being freeing and refreshing, like the writers had been going for, instead you almost felt bad for her.

.While more of a nitpick, the Season 4 and 5 intro kind of cements that feeling when you move past Season 3, the ominous bass line and the various head shots of Valerie for a solid 10 seconds before the redone, but still familiar tune kicks in, is a little daunting, followed by the cinematic scenes of Rhoda around New York replaced what we had been used to...a more frolicking version of the theme that interspersed cinematic footage with fun clips from the show. It gave the feeling that a more serious show was about to play instead of the one we were expecting. I get this was just part of TV in general in the Disco era, and they were trying to look current, but after all the changes in S3, losing the the upbeat intro was another change, not for the better. but that's just me probably, haha.

stevea · 06-28-2024, 08:25 AM

I also always liked Rhoda, but I do recognize the runner(s) mismanaged the show. You really can't blame the writers; they should be managed--everyone has a boss in this business.

TVFactFan · 06-29-2024, 05:27 PM

The highlights of the show for me was the MOM and CARLTON. One was unseen and the other one left after season 2.

hch · 01-20-2026, 02:02 PM

Rhoda is frequently cited as a textbook example of a "hit show" sabotaged by its own creative management. Despite debuting to record-breaking ratings, the series suffered from a series of high-profile departures and fundamental changes that ultimately alienated its massive audience.

Management & Creative Failures
The "revolving door" of writers and producers was a direct result of the showrunners' inability to settle on a sustainable premise:

The "Married Couple" Struggle: Producers James L. Brooks and Allan Burns admitted they found a happily married Rhoda "dull" and struggled to write comedy for her in a domestic setting, leading to the controversial decision to have her divorce Joe Gerard.

Shifting Showrunners: Charlotte Brown became one of TV's first female showrunners when she took over in Season 3 to navigate the fallout of the divorce. Later, Allan Katz and Don Reo (from M*A*S*H) were brought in for Season 4, followed by Bob Ellison in the final season.

Disappearing Supporting Cast: In Season 3, the show lost its strongest secondary characters when Nancy Walker (Ida) and Harold Gould (Martin) left for their own short-lived sitcoms. This left Rhoda without the "bench" of characters that made the parent show, The Mary Tyler Moore Show, an ensemble success.

Ratings Collapse
The creative mismanagement led to one of the most dramatic declines in sitcom history:

Season 1 & 2: A massive top-10 hit.

Season 3: Ratings plummeted from #7 to #33 after the separation and the loss of Rhoda's parents.

Season 5: Following multiple time-slot changes and a focus on Julie Kavner’s character for a potential spinoff, ratings bottomed out at #95, leading to mid-season cancellation.

Durwood · 03-01-2026, 12:41 AM

I think what a lot of people are forgetting is that Season One, airing on Monday nights at 9:30 pm, was such a ratings juggernaut that CBS decided to move it to 8 pm on Mondays for Season 2 (1975-76), and have it anchor it's 'Monday Night Primetime Schedule' ('Phyllis' Season One followed at 8:30). Sounded like a huge honor for the show, except...

...Starting in September, 1975, the FCC (with approval from the three networks) imposed the 'Family Viewing Hour' policy, in effect every night from 8 pm - 9 pm, which stated TV shows must contain 'family content', and stay away from 'the subject of sex' and other subjects of 'adult content' in response to public complaints *. So the writers were writing for a newly married couple ("Joe and Rhoda") yet couldn't write any storylines or jokes about their sex life, no matter how tasteful they would have been. 'Innuendos' could only go so far. How many jokes / storylines could they possibly write about a couple's finances, a sister's lonely Saturday night without a date, or a 'meddling mother-in-law' for a show about a newly married couple?

The policy stayed in effect throughout the 1975-76 season, yet was challenged by writers from every network, and ruled a violation of the First Amendment in 1976, though the policy still held when the third season of 'Rhoda' began production in the summer of 1976. It was the detriment to this new hit comedy. Defeated, the writers decided it was best to have the couple divorce and write for a 'single woman' once again for season three. It was a challenge for the most gifted comedy writers - and none could make it work for 'Rhoda'.

What CBS should have done to save the show was to move it back to 9:30 pm, so the writers could write freely about sex as they did for 'Maude', 'One Day At A Time', 'All In The Family' - which had moved out of the Saturday 8 pm slot when 'Family Hour' began. Instead, they moved it from Mondays to Sundays to Saturdays...still keeping it in the 8 pm slot.

'Family Hour' was finally abandoned by the start of the 1977-78 season, but by then Rhoda's divorce was finalized and she was single. 'Sex' jokes didn't fit into the show's new direction. The show was slowly falling apart, and finally collapsed in the fifth season.

*Other topics off-limits in 'The Family Hour' included politics and religion, as well as violence (for dramatic series).

02-08-2022, 02:22 AM	#1
TMC Member Forum Idol Join Date: Jan 09, 2001 Posts: 124,377	Was "Rhoda" one of the most incompetently managed "hit shows" in history The show had a revolving door of head writers. Nobody could figure it out, so they kept handing it off to someone else. Mitchell/Neigher engineered the disastrous divorce and got bounced. Allan Katz and Don Reo from MASH did Season 4. Bob Ellison from The Mary Tyler Moore Show did drain-circling Season 5. The writers claimed they didn't know how to write comedy about married people, even though The Dick Van Dyke Show and The Bob Newhart Show managed to pull it off. They didn't develop a bench of friends or neighbors for Rhoda. So when she got divorced and the actors playing her parents got lured away to do their own shows in the third season, she was twisting in the wind. In contrast, when Rhoda herself, departed The Mary Tyler Moore Show, they brought in Sue Ann Nivens, which proved to be a genius comic creation.

02-12-2022, 01:26 AM	#2
TVFactFan Member Forum Junkie Join Date: Aug 17, 2002 Posts: 98,949	It looks like it was the writing because the show stayed on Monday night the first 3 seasons

02-21-2022, 10:44 PM	#3
JSP Member Senior Member Join Date: Aug 19, 2003 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 2,735	I really enjoy the Season 3-5 Rhoda episodes. I never lost interest in the show.

02-22-2022, 11:45 PM	#4
TMC Member Forum Idol Join Date: Jan 09, 2001 Posts: 124,377	Interesting AV Club article - How the producers of Rhoda killed the show by making it better...

03-04-2024, 05:11 AM	#5
TMC Member Forum Idol Join Date: Jan 09, 2001 Posts: 124,377	As others have pointed out, homely Brenda upstaged Rhoda in the sense that she got all of Rhoda's former lines, so Rhoda became boring. Would it might have been better to have Rhoda react against a sister who was perfect?

06-28-2024, 05:11 AM	#6
clanoftheduck Member Occasional Poster Join Date: Jan 05, 2014 Location: Indiana Posts: 25	I love Rhoda, I didn't watch it live because I was a baby, but in the mid 90's when, 70's nostalgia was at it's peak, Nick@Nite showed Rhoda in it's lineup and I first got hooked, along with TMTMS which aired with it then too. I'm there for the full series, I enjoy it as a whole, but I agree with this threads title a little bit. Season 3 was rough! So many changes that started then, and it really, continued seemingly to always change throughout the next 2 and a half seasons. Change is rough in real life, and sitcoms, especially when they ruled back then, were your escape from real life, even if they reflected your real life in the way your brain interacts. The cast become like friends. The main characters home base set becomes a place you visit once a week to hang out and it feels cozy, you know it almost as well as you do your own home. Their work life feels like you're popping in to say hi there, now and then and see what the wacky coworkers are up to. But season 3 turned all of that on it's head; Joe was a different person entirely, and Rhoda changed too. Ma and Pop disappeared (because Nancy Walker left for Blansky's Beauties) Rhoda lost her business and the nicer apartment that felt so much like home before. The new supporting cast seemed to be trying real hard to fill the gaps but often came off as annoying because they felt wedged in. Season 3 still has an undertone of sadness to it, to me, still fun, still Rhoda, but just that feeling of constant change makes you nostalgic for what it was. I never really grew comfortable with Rhoda's new apartment, secretly rooted for her to become a huge success and could move back to the other. Never really felt connected to the later work cast, or the people in the apartment building, though I'm a big fan of Anne Meara. Rhoda herself just didn't always seem in a 'happy place' anymore, she was starting over after having reached all these life goals, so instead of being freeing and refreshing, like the writers had been going for, instead you almost felt bad for her. .While more of a nitpick, the Season 4 and 5 intro kind of cements that feeling when you move past Season 3, the ominous bass line and the various head shots of Valerie for a solid 10 seconds before the redone, but still familiar tune kicks in, is a little daunting, followed by the cinematic scenes of Rhoda around New York replaced what we had been used to...a more frolicking version of the theme that interspersed cinematic footage with fun clips from the show. It gave the feeling that a more serious show was about to play instead of the one we were expecting. I get this was just part of TV in general in the Disco era, and they were trying to look current, but after all the changes in S3, losing the the upbeat intro was another change, not for the better. but that's just me probably, haha.

06-28-2024, 08:25 AM	#7
stevea 22 Years On Sitcoms Moderator Forum Legend Join Date: Aug 13, 2003 Location: Indy Posts: 44,160	I also always liked Rhoda, but I do recognize the runner(s) mismanaged the show. You really can't blame the writers; they should be managed--everyone has a boss in this business.

06-29-2024, 05:27 PM	#8
TVFactFan Member Forum Junkie Join Date: Aug 17, 2002 Posts: 98,949	The highlights of the show for me was the MOM and CARLTON. One was unseen and the other one left after season 2.

01-20-2026, 02:02 PM	#9
hch Member Forum Regular Join Date: Jun 07, 2001 Location: Montross, VA 22520 Posts: 983	Rhoda is frequently cited as a textbook example of a "hit show" sabotaged by its own creative management. Despite debuting to record-breaking ratings, the series suffered from a series of high-profile departures and fundamental changes that ultimately alienated its massive audience. Management & Creative Failures The "revolving door" of writers and producers was a direct result of the showrunners' inability to settle on a sustainable premise: The "Married Couple" Struggle: Producers James L. Brooks and Allan Burns admitted they found a happily married Rhoda "dull" and struggled to write comedy for her in a domestic setting, leading to the controversial decision to have her divorce Joe Gerard. Shifting Showrunners: Charlotte Brown became one of TV's first female showrunners when she took over in Season 3 to navigate the fallout of the divorce. Later, Allan Katz and Don Reo (from MAS*H) were brought in for Season 4, followed by Bob Ellison in the final season. Disappearing Supporting Cast: In Season 3, the show lost its strongest secondary characters when Nancy Walker (Ida) and Harold Gould (Martin) left for their own short-lived sitcoms. This left Rhoda without the "bench" of characters that made the parent show, The Mary Tyler Moore Show, an ensemble success. Ratings Collapse The creative mismanagement led to one of the most dramatic declines in sitcom history: Season 1 & 2: A massive top-10 hit. Season 3: Ratings plummeted from #7 to #33 after the separation and the loss of Rhoda's parents. Season 5: Following multiple time-slot changes and a focus on Julie Kavner’s character for a potential spinoff, ratings bottomed out at #95, leading to mid-season cancellation.
	__________________ "You don't own the rights or the patent on scuffling!" Willona from "Good Times"

03-01-2026, 12:41 AM	#10
Durwood Member Occasional Poster Join Date: Feb 28, 2026 Location: Rhode Island Posts: 10	I think what a lot of people are forgetting is that Season One, airing on Monday nights at 9:30 pm, was such a ratings juggernaut that CBS decided to move it to 8 pm on Mondays for Season 2 (1975-76), and have it anchor it's 'Monday Night Primetime Schedule' ('Phyllis' Season One followed at 8:30). Sounded like a huge honor for the show, except... ...Starting in September, 1975, the FCC (with approval from the three networks) imposed the 'Family Viewing Hour' policy, in effect every night from 8 pm - 9 pm, which stated TV shows must contain 'family content', and stay away from 'the subject of sex' and other subjects of 'adult content' in response to public complaints . So the writers were writing for a newly married couple ("Joe and Rhoda") yet couldn't write any storylines or jokes about their sex life, no matter how tasteful they would have been. 'Innuendos' could only go so far. How many jokes / storylines could they possibly write about a couple's finances, a sister's lonely Saturday night without a date, or a 'meddling mother-in-law' for a show about a newly married couple? The policy stayed in effect throughout the 1975-76 season, yet was challenged by writers from every network, and ruled a violation of the First Amendment in 1976, though the policy still held when the third season of 'Rhoda' began production in the summer of 1976. It was the detriment to this new hit comedy. Defeated, the writers decided it was best to have the couple divorce and write for a 'single woman' once again for season three. It was a challenge for the most gifted comedy writers - and none could make it work for 'Rhoda'. What CBS should have done to save the show was to move it back to 9:30 pm, so the writers could write freely about sex as they did for 'Maude', 'One Day At A Time', 'All In The Family' - which had moved out of the Saturday 8 pm slot when 'Family Hour' began. Instead, they moved it from Mondays to Sundays to Saturdays...still keeping it in the 8 pm slot. 'Family Hour' was finally abandoned by the start of the 1977-78 season, but by then Rhoda's divorce was finalized and she was single. 'Sex' jokes didn't fit into the show's new direction. The show was slowly falling apart, and finally collapsed in the fifth season. Other topics off-limits in 'The Family Hour' included politics and religion, as well as violence (for dramatic series).