Katherine Korzilius

[freakbook]

Originally Posted by tvscript124

Here is what I don't understand and why I have the biggest problem with the "she fell off" theory.

WHY, if she did fall off and the mom knew about it and it was this tragic accident, go on "Unsolved Mysteries," a top show at the time and open yourself up to all that scrutiny? It doesn't make sense. Just to cover up your own guilt? That can backfire big time.

Because Katherine died and she didn't want to be held responsible which could result in jail time if she was found guilty.

This wasn't an accident in which Katherine fell and eventually got back up. If found responsible for her death she could've been brought up on charges and it could've ruined the family name/business

So they created the narrative that she was abducted or didn't know what happened so people wouldn't point the finger at her. Going on UM and saying it was something/one else and then having Bon Jovi on there singing a sad song will take the heat off of her.

And if she just told the truth then people would call her a bad mother, she may receive jail time and it damn sure would put a dent in the fathers business

[Labonte18]

Originally Posted by freakbook

Very simple, but tragic case.

She was found in the direction the mother was going with marks all over her body that looked like she tumbled from a moving vehicle.

The mother made a weird comment about how "she was laid out there to be found" AHEM AHEM *obsolving responsibilty*

Parents wound up getting divorced shortly after. Wonder if this had something to do with it? Perhaps Dad found out the truth

Perhaps. But.. Losing a child.. That has a tendency to rip a family apart no matter what.

Originally Posted by tvscript124

Here is what I don't understand and why I have the biggest problem with the "she fell off" theory.

WHY, if she did fall off and the mom knew about it and it was this tragic accident, go on "Unsolved Mysteries," a top show at the time and open yourself up to all that scrutiny? It doesn't make sense. Just to cover up your own guilt? That can backfire big time.

The key words.. IF SHE KNEW.. It's.. Feasible, at least, that she could have climbed on the back without the knowledge of the occupants.

Originally Posted by TheCars1986

The family, which had connections to Jon Bon Jovi, can publicly put the narrative out there that their daughter was the victim of an attempted abduction instead of the much more obvious answer: a tragic accident. This segment doesn't get made if this was some random family from some rural town in the south.

Eh.. I both agree and don't.. You're.. PROBABLY right. The more I think on it, the more right I think you are.. but.. Maybe there's a chance..

Originally Posted by freakbook

Because Katherine died and she didn't want to be held responsible which could result in jail time if she was found guilty.

This wasn't an accident in which Katherine fell and eventually got back up. If found responsible for her death she could've been brought up on charges and it could've ruined the family name/business

So they created the narrative that she was abducted or didn't know what happened so people wouldn't point the finger at her. Going on UM and saying it was something/one else and then having Bon Jovi on there singing a sad song will take the heat off of her.

And if she just told the truth then people would call her a bad mother, she may receive jail time and it damn sure would put a dent in the fathers business

I don't really know that she would have faced charges.. Even if she knew and allowed Katherine to hang onto the back of the vehicle. It was the 90's.. Kids were a little more sheltered than us children of the 70's and 80's.. But..

I also don't think, at the time, necessarily that she would have faced charges. At a certain point.. You do have to sit back and say "She's lost her daughter.. That's more punishment than the law could dish out"

I think more than likely.. It just gets looked at as a tragic accident. So.. If you're right.. That she lied to cover it up.. I.. Don't know that she really gained anything from it. Still divorced. Lost her daughter. Lost her son. MAYBE she avoided a very small jail sentence.. but.. I think they probably had enough money that.. She might have gotten probation or a suspended sentence.. At worst. Most likely.. No charges at all.

[freakbook]

Originally Posted by Labonte18

I also don't think, at the time, necessarily that she would have faced charges. At a certain point.. You do have to sit back and say "She's lost her daughter.. That's more punishment than the law could dish out"

I think more than likely.. It just gets looked at as a tragic accident. So.. If you're right.. That she lied to cover it up.. I.. Don't know that she really gained anything from it. Still divorced. Lost her daughter. Lost her son. MAYBE she avoided a very small jail sentence.. but.. I think they probably had enough money that.. She might have gotten probation or a suspended sentence.. At worst. Most likely.. No charges at all.

You have to look at it from her perspective to understand. Let's say Katherine fell from her vehicle and she admitted it. No matter what, someone would blame her and point the finger. Even if she wasn't concernced about prison time, she'd still have to face the scrutiny of people saying it was her fault and she could have prevented it from happening.

If she just cared about the justice and truth of her child, then why hire a P.I. to prove that Katherine couldn't have fallen from her car? It seems like she was doing damage control as much as possible to point the heat away from herself. Hiring a P.I., going on UM, making comments that deflect the blame from her onto someone else "it looked like SOMEONE had laid her out there for me to find". Hell, even threw in Bon Jovi to soften the blow

All signs point to the mother deflecting blame and ducking responsibilty. SOMEONE else had laid her out there, NO WAY she could have fell from my car; the P.I proves it, etc.

She just wanted to protect her image.

[freakbook]

Forgot to the add that the mother could be covering for the brother. If the brother was responsible for Kathrine falling out of the vehicle, then the mother could've been trying to protect the son.

In one picture they showed Katherine wearing a cast on her arm. Im not sure if they rough housed or he bullied her, but there is a chance that the brother was responsible.

She obviously didnt want to lose both children

[Dogface82]

Originally Posted by Labonte18

Ah.. Ok.. I wasn't sure where you were going with the whole 'no mail' thing.

Again, to me, it's rather irrelevant. They were still going to stop at the mailbox to check.

The biggest thing to me.. She was found on the road the same way the mother went. And.. What was the timeframe? It was really, really quick all things considered.. I haven't ever seen an exact timeframe, but it seems everything happened within 15-30 minutes.

It's less difficult to believe that she was on the back of the vehicle than believing that abductor(s) just happened to be watching the mailbox and just happened to grab her during the 2 minutes that she was out of sight and just happened to toss her out of the vehicle...?

Okay, I guess I was clear as mud.
1) I totally agree the family had to stop and check mail.
2) Katherine got out of the car. Was let out or on her own.
3) If no mail she may have been quick enough to catch her car.
4) She was small and easily unnoticed.
5) tumbled resulting in fatal head injury
6) "appeared" laid out when discovered less than 30 minutes later
7) mother believes she was abducted

If no mail that day solves why none was found. Had she seen her brother or other kids ride a rear bumper? Had she done it successfully before? I have seen adults left behind after a roadside stop some jumping up and down using loud profane language who were not noticed. A tiny 6 year old is almost invisible. There are a number of ways katherine could have been disloged, fallen or had a bad dismount from her perch. At very low speed a person can end up looking laid out or at a peaceful rest.

Katherines mother couldn't come to terms she might have caued her injuries and death even by accident. She probably really believes a stranger did this to her daughter. She wouldn't be the only mother like this featured on Unsolved Mysteries.
I think this is the most plausible scenario. A lot of other plausible scenarios and motivations have been discussed. That is why this site is enlightening. While another scenario may not seem as likely it doesn't mean its wrong. Look at some of the mysteries that have been solved.

[tvscript124]

Originally Posted by freakbook

Because Katherine died and she didn't want to be held responsible which could result in jail time if she was found guilty.

This wasn't an accident in which Katherine fell and eventually got back up. If found responsible for her death she could've been brought up on charges and it could've ruined the family name/business

So they created the narrative that she was abducted or didn't know what happened so people wouldn't point the finger at her. Going on UM and saying it was something/one else and then having Bon Jovi on there singing a sad song will take the heat off of her.

And if she just told the truth then people would call her a bad mother, she may receive jail time and it damn sure would put a dent in the fathers business

Okay, I guess that makes sense. I feel sick for the mother if that is the case. To have to live with the guilt all those years.

[tvscript124]

Originally Posted by Labonte18

Perhaps. But.. Losing a child.. That has a tendency to rip a family apart no matter what.



The key words.. IF SHE KNEW.. It's.. Feasible, at least, that she could have climbed on the back without the knowledge of the occupants.



Eh.. I both agree and don't.. You're.. PROBABLY right. The more I think on it, the more right I think you are.. but.. Maybe there's a chance..



I don't really know that she would have faced charges.. Even if she knew and allowed Katherine to hang onto the back of the vehicle. It was the 90's.. Kids were a little more sheltered than us children of the 70's and 80's.. But..

I also don't think, at the time, necessarily that she would have faced charges. At a certain point.. You do have to sit back and say "She's lost her daughter.. That's more punishment than the law could dish out"

I think more than likely.. It just gets looked at as a tragic accident. So.. If you're right.. That she lied to cover it up.. I.. Don't know that she really gained anything from it. Still divorced. Lost her daughter. Lost her son. MAYBE she avoided a very small jail sentence.. but.. I think they probably had enough money that.. She might have gotten probation or a suspended sentence.. At worst. Most likely.. No charges at all.

I too doubt she would have faced charges back then (I am not a lawyer). More likely the scandal would have hurt the dad's business. And also, as someone else suggested, maybe the mom was in denial that she caused this because it was too horrific to think about. How could you even live with that guilt?

[Labonte18]

Originally Posted by Dogface82

Okay, I guess I was clear as mud.
1) I totally agree the family had to stop and check mail.
2) Katherine got out of the car. Was let out or on her own.
3) If no mail she may have been quick enough to catch her car.
4) She was small and easily unnoticed.
5) tumbled resulting in fatal head injury
6) "appeared" laid out when discovered less than 30 minutes later
7) mother believes she was abducted

If no mail that day solves why none was found. Had she seen her brother or other kids ride a rear bumper? Had she done it successfully before? I have seen adults left behind after a roadside stop some jumping up and down using loud profane language who were not noticed. A tiny 6 year old is almost invisible. There are a number of ways katherine could have been disloged, fallen or had a bad dismount from her perch. At very low speed a person can end up looking laid out or at a peaceful rest.

Katherines mother couldn't come to terms she might have caued her injuries and death even by accident. She probably really believes a stranger did this to her daughter. She wouldn't be the only mother like this featured on Unsolved Mysteries.
I think this is the most plausible scenario. A lot of other plausible scenarios and motivations have been discussed. That is why this site is enlightening. While another scenario may not seem as likely it doesn't mean its wrong. Look at some of the mysteries that have been solved.

Well, you're picturing the situation differently than I.. It seems you're basically saying that the mother dropped the child at the mailbox and then left.

Now.. If that's the case.. A 6 year old.. That's.. Pretty scummy behavior from the mother.

I've always seen this presented as they went to the mailbox, checked the mail, then Katherine asked if she could walk home.. Mother said yes.. and.. Went the opposite direction that she sent her six year old so she'd be completely out of sight.

I've just imagined that the mother sat there for a minute, maybe talking to the son, putting her seat belt on, whatever.. And Katherine, perhaps, took that opportunity to jump on the bumper. This is all assuming the mother's story is real.

You seem to be looking at it from the angle of she was just dropped off at the mailbox, more or less.

Which one of us is right, if either.. one person left alive knows.I suppose it doesn't matter.. But, your point of view on it.. Certainly paints the mother in a much worse light, to me.

Originally Posted by tvscript124

I too doubt she would have faced charges back then (I am not a lawyer). More likely the scandal would have hurt the dad's business. And also, as someone else suggested, maybe the mom was in denial that she caused this because it was too horrific to think about. How could you even live with that guilt?

I don't even think it would have hurt his business. Bon Jovi writes the song.. Honestly.. I don't even think it would be remembered past that.

[Dogface82]

Look at comment #820 by freakbook. It maybe a screen capture. It has a woman (mother?) an SUV by mailboxes. This puts everything in scale. I had seen just the mailboxes on the link provided by Cars1986.

I got the idea that Katherine walking home from the mailboxes was not unusual and she had permission to get the mail and carry it home before she left the car. In any case when I look at the photo she had ample time to walk to the rear of the SUV find a place to ride before her mom had a chance to drive off. The rear bumper with trailer hitch is perfect for a 6 year old to sit and brace their feet against the hitch and find a place to grab or brace with one or both arms. She would have been totally invisible to anyone inside the SUV. I guess we will never know for sure.

[Labonte18]

Originally Posted by Dogface82

Look at comment #820 by freakbook. It maybe a screen capture. It has a woman (mother?) an SUV by mailboxes. This puts everything in scale. I had seen just the mailboxes on the link provided by Cars1986.

I got the idea that Katherine walking home from the mailboxes was not unusual and she had permission to get the mail and carry it home before she left the car. In any case when I look at the photo she had ample time to walk to the rear of the SUV find a place to ride before her mom had a chance to drive off. The rear bumper with trailer hitch is perfect for a 6 year old to sit and brace their feet against the hitch and find a place to grab or brace with one or both arms. She would have been totally invisible to anyone inside the SUV. I guess we will never know for sure.

Here's why *I* picture it the way I do.. And.. Honestly... Not that I feel we're arguing about this, but.. Whichever one of us might have it right in our minds eye.. At the end of the day.. Does it really make any difference? I can't see that it does..

If she just dropped the kid off and it was pre-arranged that she'd walk back.. The seems.. At least a little worse than a spur of the moment decision to me.. but, that's probably not being overly fair.

Anyway.. Those mailboxes are individually locked. Standard townhome/apartment complex style mailboxes.. So.. The reason I have the thought that they got out and checked the mail together.. Well, just.. If you had a mailbox like that.. Where would your key for it be? On your keychain with your car keys.. So, to use it.. You'd have to shut the car off and take the keys out. Remember.. This is well before the push button start days.

Is it possible that they kept the key just sitting in the vehicle? Yep. Maybe they had an extra key made for Katherine or something, though.. A 6 year old with keys is.. Well, it seems unusual.

So.. With that in mind.. My vision of how it went down is that either the mother only got out and checked the mail, or.. Both of them did. Whether there was mail or not is.. Mostly irrelevant, though.. That brings up another thought i'll touch on in a second.. As they, or the mother is getting back in the car.. Katherine asks if she can walk home.. OK.. Mother starts up the vehicle.. Maybe takes a few seconds.. If *SHE* got the mail, maybe she's looking through it, which.. I think is rather common. Once you get your mail, you at least thumb through it to see what it is.. Which would allow time for Katherine to get on the bumper. AND.. Since the mother is distracted by looking at the mail.. Maybe she doesn't notice.

You could also say.. You'd think even a 40lb (?) 6 year old sitting down on the bumper, you'd notice the 'dip'.. But.. If it happened right as the vehicle was starting, or being put into gear (No way that thing is a manual!).. Perhaps not.

Now.. The other thing.. If she was just dropped off.. Then there couldn't have been mail. Because.. She would have had it with her. It wasn't found on the road. So.. Just dropping her off.. That's another reason I don't go that way.. In the 90's.. How many days did you NOT have mail? I rarely get mail now, but that's because so much is online. If I didn't get 500 friggin' letters from Charter a year begging me to come back, I probably wouldn't have mail for weeks on end. But.. In the 90's.. Different world. A bit of this is playing the odds.. Which.. Can bite me in the ass, because.. If the odds are one in a million.. There's still a chance.


So.. That's how I come to my vision of it.. They get to the mailbox, stop, Katherine and her mother get out and check the mail.. Boy stays in the car (Maybe he has a gameboy he's playing) because.. The mail won't be for him. But, a 6 year old.. It's fun to check the mail.. Whether there is or isn't mail, we don't know, but I assume there is. Katherine asks if she can walk home.. OK.. Mother gets in the car, glancing at the mail.. Starts up, drives off.. Somewhere in here, Katherine has gotten on the bumper.. Mother doesn't know she's on the bumper, probably isn't driving as if she were.. Hits a turn/bump.. With the cast.. Katherine can't hold on.. Falls off at 25-30 mph.. Cracks her head and that's all she wrote.

[TheCars1986]

You have to remember that initially this case was being treated as a hit and run, and IIRC, they show a newspaper article with a title about a hit and run driver being sought in Katherine's death. But when the autopsy concluded that she either fell or was pushed from a moving vehicle, the theory that she had fallen after jumping on the back of her mother's car without her mother's knowledge was thrown out there. Then the family hired a private investigator. A hit and run, IMO, is much more believable than a random person unsuccessfully abducting a 6 year old and throwing them from their car, and then taking the time to place her in the street "deliberately". But the hit and run was ruled out by the autopsy, leaving the only logical and believable scenario is a very tragic accident.

[Labonte18]

Originally Posted by TheCars1986

You have to remember that initially this case was being treated as a hit and run, and IIRC, they show a newspaper article with a title about a hit and run driver being sought in Katherine's death. But when the autopsy concluded that she either fell or was pushed from a moving vehicle, the theory that she had fallen after jumping on the back of her mother's car without her mother's knowledge was thrown out there. Then the family hired a private investigator. A hit and run, IMO, is much more believable than a random person unsuccessfully abducting a 6 year old and throwing them from their car, and then taking the time to place her in the street "deliberately". But the hit and run was ruled out by the autopsy, leaving the only logical and believable scenario is a very tragic accident.

I think it makes perfect sense to assume a hit and run at the outset. And as you mention, autopsy didn't show broken legs, which would pretty much be a given for a hit and run.. Short of some odd situation such as her being clipped by a mirror on a passing vehicle or something. However, that theory can fairly easily be written off by where she was found.

Hit and run or her being on the vehicle both make more sense to me than abduction and tossing her out of a vehicle.

Logical and believable to you and me. BUT.. CO poisoning was the logical and believable conclusion for Gene Hackman and his wife's death.. Until it was proven that it wasn't. Then.. it got rather muddy.. But.. Throughout.. I can tell you that her dying of hantavirus and him living in the house several days with her dead body before dying of natural causes was so far down the list of 'logical and believable' that it wasn't even on my radar. But, sure enough..

We do have to remember to remember that we most likely don't know everything. Not just on this case. That's good advice for life.

So.. Just saying that.. You do have to keep something of an open mind and be willing to accept that.. We just don't know for sure. Just because we can't think of a way that she could wind up where she was, with the injuries she had without the mother knowing or without Katherine sneaking on the bumper of the mothers car.. Doesn't necessarily mean there isn't a way.

It also doesn't mean we have to agree with out there theories. The number of people I saw promoting vaccines and pesticides and other whackadoo theories as the COD for Hackman and his wife.. The abduction theory is.. I won't classify it in the whackadoo area.. But it does get close to the line for me.

[Street Novelist]

I agree with everything freakbook said. As far as I know, there is absolutely no evidence to suggest she was kidnapped and strangled. They've never been able to find one eyewitness to corroborate that theory. The most likely scenario is Katherine climbed onto the back of the minivan, unbeknownst to Mom. When Mom drove away, she fell off. If the car was going fast enough and she landed on her head, that could cause death in a child.

[mozartpc27]

Just listened to RobinW's The Trail Went Cold episode about this case. I agree with him that my initial reaction was something approximating "Wow, how mysterious!", but long ago I concluded, like RobinW, that this is most likely a tragic accident.

However, there was something I never noticed before about the sequence of events that struck me in listening to RobinW's recounting. I am not sure if this information came from the segment or not.

In any event, apparently, after Katherine was taken to the hospital by her Mom, she was eventually pronounced brain dead, and taken off life support. Meanwhile, her father chartered a flight to get home as soon as he heard about the accident... but the decision to pull Katherine off of life support was made before the Dad arrived, and thus he missed her dying.

This struck me as profoundly odd. She was six or at most seven? She had just had the accident that very day. Her dad was en route. Even if she was brain dead - if the machines were keeping her alive, why not let them continue to do so until he got there, so he could say goodbye?

Maybe a small detail but when I heard that this time I was stunned. I think audibly gasped, by myself, alone in the car. I think I would have been terribly upset if that decision had been made without me being there or getting to say good-bye when I was quite literally on my way. What on Earth was the rush?

[Labonte18]

Originally Posted by mozartpc27

Just listened to RobinW's The Trail Went Cold episode about this case. I agree with him that my initial reaction was something approximating "Wow, how mysterious!", but long ago I concluded, like RobinW, that this is most likely a tragic accident.

However, there was something I never noticed before about the sequence of events that struck me in listening to RobinW's recounting. I am not sure if this information came from the segment or not.

In any event, apparently, after Katherine was taken to the hospital by her Mom, she was eventually pronounced brain dead, and taken off life support. Meanwhile, her father chartered a flight to get home as soon as he heard about the accident... but the decision to pull Katherine off of life support was made before the Dad arrived, and thus he missed her dying.

This struck me as profoundly odd. She was six or at most seven? She had just had the accident that very day. Her dad was en route. Even if she was brain dead - if the machines were keeping her alive, why not let them continue to do so until he got there, so he could say goodbye?

Maybe a small detail but when I heard that this time I was stunned. I think audibly gasped, by myself, alone in the car. I think I would have been terribly upset if that decision had been made without me being there or getting to say good-bye when I was quite literally on my way. What on Earth was the rush?

You know.. I've never considered that.. I've always had it in my mind, incorrectly, that an ambulance was called.

I don't read much into it either way, so far as it being 'odd'.. Pending on where the hospital is, it certainly could be quicker for them to put her in the vehicle and go to the hospital.

Looking at a map, there does seem to be a hospital about 2 miles or so away. Just across Hwy 360.. So.. I can see it.. Though at the end of the day, not knowing what happened.. She could have had a neck injury or anything.. It was a bad idea, but, at least understandable. Plus, it was August, she was on blacktop.. I think the mother said something about not wanting to leave her there because of that.. Again.. Bad idea, but.. Not something that is telling.

Now.. The removal from life support, I think that's the first time I've heard the timeline on that and yes.. That is VERY strange. Everything I've read is just that she "Passed away shortly after". Not waiting for the father to arrive.. Now.. It's also possible that they had talked, he was still hours away and reading a bit more, it seems she was totally brain dead.. If the mother pulled her from life support as a unilateral decision.. That's odder than if they talked, it was explained that she was gone and the husband said to go ahead and pull the plug.