Mary Morris murder discussion back on....THIS THREAD ONLY!!

[Hambone2421]

Originally Posted by TheCars1986

Sorry to bump this thread, but I am making my way through the later seasons on Prime and watched this one again. My impressions of Mike Morris have actually changed a little bit. I do not find the refusal of the polygraph, refusing to let his daughter be questioned, or the 4 minute phone call to be suspicious anymore. I remembered that the segment said that Mike suspected Mary of having an affair with a longtime family friend and confronted them over that. So it is absolutely within logic that an overbearing and jealous husband would let the phone ring for 4 full minutes because he thought his wife was having an affair. The police indicated that the phone call took place 2 hours after Mary called 911. Meaning that Mary was roughly 2 hours late coming home from work. Making the phone call even less suspicious, IMO.

My issue with the phone call is that the cell phone company sated that it was a completed call. Mike Morris is the only one saying he let it ring for four minutes. I have never worked for a cell phone company but I'll take their word for it that it was a completed call. I make calls all the time where the other party does not pick up. Those calls do not show up on a cell phone bill

Originally Posted by TheCars1986

The only problem I have with Mike Morris's story is the gun. It's his word alone that Mary wanted one for protection, and he was the one who said Mary kept it in her car for protection. But it seems like so much scrutiny was placed on the 2nd Mary's personal life that the 1st Mary just kind of flew under the radar. The 1st Mary Morris was killed 3 miles east of her home. I cannot fathom how a hitman would have bungled it that bad to where he didn't check the address of his intended target. Either the 1st Mary Morris was a random murder and the 2nd Mary Morris murder was an unbelievable coincidence, or, IMO, the 1st Mary Morris was the intended target all along.

To me, his story about the gun, which also was the murder weapon IIRC, is akin to someone breaking into someone's home and killing them with a weapon already in the home. I guess what I mean is, I still believe the killer knew the gun was there and killed her with it due to the knowledge of its presence there. The only way the killer would know it was there is if he was told and by Mike's own account, he is the one who put the gun there.

As far as the "mistaken hit" theory, I just don't know how someone could bungle it so badly. They lived so far apart and had nothing in common, save for their name. I can't make head or tails of this unless they both just happened to be murdered days apart.

[Labonte18]

Originally Posted by Hambone2421

My issue with the phone call is that the cell phone company sated that it was a completed call. Mike Morris is the only one saying he let it ring for four minutes. I have never worked for a cell phone company but I'll take their word for it that it was a completed call. I make calls all the time where the other party does not pick up. Those calls do not show up on a cell phone bill

Here's what confuses me.. And it doesn't make sense from ANY standpoint, other than it would backup the phone company records.

He was calling a cell phone. How many cell phones, even back in 2000, would ring for 4 minutes straight? They'd go to voicemail after the 4th ring or so.. Even if VM isn't setup.. It goes to voicemail with a "Voicemailbox isn't setup"

So.. I don't EVER recall a time where a cell phone would just ring, ring, ring for 4 minutes.

This COULD explain the phone company saying the line picked up.. but it wouldn't have been ringing like Mike said. AND.. If her VM was setup, which you'd expect.. There'd be a 4 minute (approximately) 'dead air' message.

VM was pretty standard even back in 2000. You have to go back to the late 80's or early 90's to a time where VM was an add-on service or not available. And I don't particularly know if even then it would be allowed to ring for 4 minutes.

[ghosthouse]

Originally Posted by Labonte18

Here's what confuses me.. And it doesn't make sense from ANY standpoint, other than it would backup the phone company records.

He was calling a cell phone. How many cell phones, even back in 2000, would ring for 4 minutes straight? They'd go to voicemail after the 4th ring or so.. Even if VM isn't setup.. It goes to voicemail with a "Voicemailbox isn't setup"

So.. I don't EVER recall a time where a cell phone would just ring, ring, ring for 4 minutes.

This isn't such a damning thing to me. I think sometimes we can just assume that communications like cell phones and internet are just perfect machines -- "if he called it should have just gone to voicemail" sounds like it makes sense but I believe there is the possibility that something could have been crossed up along the way. I can remember dialing a phone number, especially in the older days of cell tech and old landline tech, where a call wouldn't connect or if you called a line and there was no answer it could just ring until the end of time or other times you would get cut off by the phone company with a message saying that the other caller wasn't available. How many times can you remember talking to someone on a cell phone and going on and on and then not getting anything back -- only to realize that your call was disconnected without you knowing? The same thing with the internet, how many times do you load a page or an app and it comes up but nothing loads?

I guess TL;DR - when it comes to things on a computer network, no snafu glitch is completely out of the realm of possibility to me.

[TheCars1986]

Originally Posted by Hambone2421

My issue with the phone call is that the cell phone company sated that it was a completed call. Mike Morris is the only one saying he let it ring for four minutes. I have never worked for a cell phone company but I'll take their word for it that it was a completed call. I make calls all the time where the other party does not pick up. Those calls do not show up on a cell phone bill

The phone call was made 2 hours after Mary called 911. According to the phone records, this was a completed call. But if the authorities were already at the scene within minutes of the 911 call, did the killer take Mary's cell phone? It's very vague, thanks to the UM segment. But if her phone was found at the crime scene, then the phone call is meaningless, because no one other than the authorities would have had access to it at that point.

Originally Posted by Hambone2421

As far as the "mistaken hit" theory, I just don't know how someone could bungle it so badly. They lived so far apart and had nothing in common, save for their name. I can't make head or tails of this unless they both just happened to be murdered days apart.

The first Mary's wedding ring was taken from her body. I still believe she was the intended target all along, and that the 2nd Mary was killed to throw off the investigation. By all accounts, it worked because everyone seems to be so focused on the second Mary's personal life.

[Labonte18]

Originally Posted by Hambone2421

As far as the "mistaken hit" theory, I just don't know how someone could bungle it so badly.

Meth's a hell of a drug.

[infinityluxe]

Originally Posted by TheCars1986

The phone call was made 2 hours after Mary called 911. According to the phone records, this was a completed call. But if the authorities were already at the scene within minutes of the 911 call, did the killer take Mary's cell phone? It's very vague, thanks to the UM segment. But if her phone was found at the crime scene, then the phone call is meaningless, because no one other than the authorities would have had access to it at that point.




The first Mary's wedding ring was taken from her body. I still believe she was the intended target all along, and that the 2nd Mary was killed to throw off the investigation. By all accounts, it worked because everyone seems to be so focused on the second Mary's personal life.

Wow I have watched this case about 6-10 times while rewatching UM over the years and I never once considered that.

[TheCars1986]

Originally Posted by Gumshoe

This is of interest. People seem to be pointing fingers. It seems like there will be a few more of these podcasts done by actual prosecutors, Brett and Alice. #47 seems to be a leadup. #48 focuses on Mary Lou Morris, Jay Morris and Marilyn Blalock. Can't wait for the next one about the 2nd Mary Morris, Mary Mcginnis Morris.
https://prosecutorspodcast.com/

I don't know how I missed this, but THANK YOU for recommending this podcast! It really changed my mind about this case completely. I highly recommend listening to all 3 episodes, but episode #48 and episode #50 (they had some random bonus episode that had nothing to do with the case in between) are the ones you should listen to. I'm going to summarize some new information that they presented and to make things easier, I'm going to refer to the first Mary as Mary Lou and the second simply as Mary.

For starters, I no longer think that these cases are linked. Reasons:

-As previously mentioned by Hambone, the distances from where the two women were killed/lived was actually far. When they say they were both from Houston, that's misleading. They lived in two separate suburbs of Houston.

-The theory that a hitman got their information from a phone book incorrectly cannot be true. Because where Mary Lou lived had a different phone book than the one that would have contained the information for Mary.

-One of the hosts of the podcast spoke with someone at the Houston Chronicle who was adamant that the "they got the wrong Mary Morris" phone call never took place.

With regards to Mary Lou's death:

-Mary Lou is often portrayed as a quiet nice woman who would go along to get along. The hosts spoke with her daughter, who described Mary Lou as something of a spitfire. She "wore the pants" in her relationship with Jay Morris. And her daughter said that if someone had an issue with Mary Lou or vice versa, she would confront them about it.

-Mary Lou had two main hobbies: horses and gardening. She would often use horse manure as fertilizer for her garden.

-Mary Lou did not take an incorrect route on the morning of her death. Her daughter said that she would go that way regularly because it was easier to get onto the highway.

-Mary Lou was liked by everyone at the bank she was employed at. Oddly, her supervisor did not call her home to check to see where she was at until lunchtime, and did not identify who she was when Jay answered the phone. Jay did not call the police to report her missing until 5:00 p.m.

-When Mary Lou's daughter found out that her mother was missing, she drove over to Jay's house immediately. Mary Lou's first husband (and the father of her daughter) worked in the tow truck business. Mary Lou's daughter called her father to see if he had heard anything about her mother having car trouble, seeing an abandoned car, etc. and he said that he did not but if he heard something he would let her know. As Mary Lou's daughter and Jay were searching for her, her daughter said that Jay was driving at an almost "leisurely" pace which was agitating her. They eventually gave up and went back to Jay's house.

-Mary Lou's first husband called their daughter after he saw something on the news about a vehicle being on fire and gave a precise location to where the vehicle was found. Mary Lou's daughter insisted on driving and because she wasn't familiar with the area, Jay was the guide. When they came up to an intersection with an overpass (which would have taken them to the location described on the news), she asked if they should turn that way. Jay was adamant that they need to go straight. When they went straight, they ran into a police officer. It turns out the news go the location of the car wrong. Jay led her exactly to where the car had been found.

-Jay was supposed to meet someone that day to inquire about buying a horse. This person confirmed that the meeting took place. But Jay described a route that he drove that would have taken him right by the spot where Mary Lou's car was found.

-The police believe that manure was used as the accelerant used to start the fire.

-Shortly after Mary Lou's death, Jay gave away her clothes, sold her horse, sold their house, and remarried.

-The police have two working theories: the majority of them believe that someone Mary Lou knew killed her. There is a minority who believe that this was an elaborately staged suicide because she was given a fatal cancer diagnosis and was too distraught to let her family know. They really didn't elaborate on the suicide theory too much, and if you could read between the lines they think Jay is the most likely suspect in her death. I should note that the police asked Mary Lou's daughter if she owned a gun, she did, and they located inside the home.

As regards to Mary's murder:

-Believe it or not, they found Duane Young to be credible. The whole incident with him showing up at Mary's work banging on windows was exaggerated. He showed up and the building was deserted so he started peering through windows and knocking on them to get someone's attention because he needed his time card signed. He also was not fired. Laurie Gemmell confirmed that to the hosts.

-One detective believed Duane was the prime suspect, but the others felt that they had enough to rule him out. He was allegedly fishing on the day of Mary's murder.

-Mary did not give Laurie a flu shot on the day of her death. She gave her an allergy shot, which was against the rules of her company. She also gave her the vials of the medicine which she would administer later at Laurie's home. Also a big no no with her company.

-Duane reported Mary to his supervisor about falsifying medical records. She was allegedly writing fake prescriptions and doing blood work for her friends. A huge no no with the company. The owner of the company knew about this and planned on flying in and meeting with Mary the day after her death.

-Only 2 people knew about where Mary kept the gun in her car. Mike and Mary. Unlikely that someone unknown would have done this and been able to get the drop on her or even gain access to her car. She was killed with her gun.

-Most members of the police believe Mike Morris is the lone and prime suspect in Mary's death.

-There are some who believe Mary's death was a suicide. On the surface it sounds ridiculous. But consider that she was killed with her own gun 12 minutes after telling Laurie over the phone that Duane Young's friend was creeping her out just a few days after finding out that the owner of her company became aware of the allegation that she was falsifying records and was fearful of losing her job. She was able to speak to the 911 operator while this was happening. In a struggle for your life, why aren't you naming your attacker or giving a description of them? I honestly think it's possible that after being reported by Duane to the company she could have used this phone call to Laurie as a way to implicate him in a murder that never happened. It's just too coincidental that immediately after having a conversation with her best friend about some guy really creeping her out, instead of calling the police or driving home, she goes back to her work to log off of her computer. Why was the computer so important? IMO, it was to erase or falsify evidence of the shots she had given to Laurie.

-The 911 phone call could put this to rest once and for all, but the police have refused to release it for 22 years.

I still lean heavily towards both Mary's as being murdered. I no longer believe the cases are connected, and do believe there is a possibility that Mary McGinnis, fearful of losing her job, staged an elaborate suicide.

[Stratego]

Originally Posted by TheCars1986

I still lean heavily towards both Mary's as being murdered. I no longer believe the cases are connected, and do believe there is a possibility that Mary McGinnis, fearful of losing her job, staged an elaborate suicide.

This is what I've always believed. The only thing I've wondered is whether Mary or Mike was inspired by the death of Mary Lou to commit the crime. Then again, they didn't plant a clue that this was the work of a serial killer or something. It might very well be just a very eerie coincidence.

[TheCars1986]

Originally Posted by Stratego

This is what I've always believed. The only thing I've wondered is whether Mary or Mike was inspired by the death of Mary Lou to commit the crime. Then again, they didn't plant a clue that this was the work of a serial killer or something. It might very well be just a very eerie coincidence.

The amazing thing about this case is that the two of them would have never been connected if Mary Lou's daughter, Marilyn, did not receive a phone call from a coroner about her mother's body. She had been buried the day prior so this confused Marilyn, and this is when she realized that another Mary Morris had been murdered. If she never got that phone call, we probably would have never heard about either of these cases.

[Hambone2421]

Originally Posted by Stratego

This is what I've always believed. The only thing I've wondered is whether Mary or Mike was inspired by the death of Mary Lou to commit the crime. Then again, they didn't plant a clue that this was the work of a serial killer or something. It might very well be just a very eerie coincidence.

Great job by TheCars for summarizing the podcast. I listened to it yesterday and wow, so much information out there. It sounds like, yet again, UM did not give an accurate portrayal of the cases, particularly Mary Lou Morris. The information regarding Mary Lou's murder and odd reactions by her husband seem like very important details.

I highlighted the above comment because as I listened to the podcast, I thought the same thing. If Mike Morris was wanting his wife out of the picture and had, at the very least, thought about murdering her then this could have been a prime opportunity. However, I think it's less likely than we are thinking as that would take some super big planning at the last minute by Mike.

Ultimately, I think Mary may have just been carjacked/mugged by a random person and during the struggle, they saw/found the gun and killed her. What I don't understand is why, after 22 years, the police will not, at the very least, release a transcript of the 911 call. At this point, it seems like it could only do good by releasing it. I don't think any names are mentioned during the call because if so, they would have already been able to ascertain or figure out who it was. I don't think she committed suicide because I feel like the 911 call had either a voice or noises from another person on the call. The detective interviewed on the segment said it was bone chilling to hear.

Based on the podcast and the information concerning Laurie Gemmell and Mary, it stands to reason that Laurie could have had some sort of involvement. If they were as close as she said, then I'm sure Mary told Laurie that the top dog was coming in to meet with her. Laurie could have been afraid Mary would say something about her indiscretions as well. I also think Laurie likely knew the location of the gun.

As cuckoo as Duane was on the boards, I can see why he is so upset. The segment painted him out to be a crazy person, when in reality, he was not. He saw something happening at work that was not only wrong, but potentially dangerous, and reported it.

Originally Posted by TheCars1986

-Mary did not give Laurie a flu shot on the day of her death. She gave her an allergy shot, which was against the rules of her company. She also gave her the vials of the medicine which she would administer later at Laurie's home. Also a big no no with her company.

I'm curious how the podcast hosts not only heard about this, but were able to verify it? I highly doubt Laurie willingly gave up that information and simply hearing it from Duane doesn't seem like enough to make it credible.

Originally Posted by TheCars1986

-The police believe that manure was used as the accelerant used to start the fire.

This seems to indicate that it could have only been Jay, unless Mary killed herself.

[TheCars1986]

Originally Posted by Hambone2421

Based on the podcast and the information concerning Laurie Gemmell and Mary, it stands to reason that Laurie could have had some sort of involvement. If they were as close as she said, then I'm sure Mary told Laurie that the top dog was coming in to meet with her. Laurie could have been afraid Mary would say something about her indiscretions as well. I also think Laurie likely knew the location of the gun.

The only problem with this was that Laurie already no longer worked for the company. She had left about a month prior to Mary's murder, so she had no fear of any repercussions.

Originally Posted by Hambone2421

As cuckoo as Duane was on the boards, I can see why he is so upset. The segment painted him out to be a crazy person, when in reality, he was not. He saw something happening at work that was not only wrong, but potentially dangerous, and reported it.

It was pretty eye opening and I started to think that I would probably behave in what would be perceived oddball way if it was hinted for years that I was involved in a murder I had nothing to do with.

Originally Posted by Hambone2421

I'm curious how the podcast hosts not only heard about this, but were able to verify it? I highly doubt Laurie willingly gave up that information and simply hearing it from Duane doesn't seem like enough to make it credible.

Laurie Gemmell willingly gave that information up to them. She also told them about the falsifying of prescriptions and illegal blood work she was doing, and said that she would do "anything for her friends". I think she got a little too charitable with what she was doing, lied about it, and then Duane found out (maybe she told him or offered the same to him) and he reported her. They even said that both she and Duane agreed on everything up to the point about whether or not Mary was legitimately fearful of him.

Originally Posted by Hambone2421

This seems to indicate that it could have only been Jay, unless Mary killed herself.

Correct

[Hambone2421]

Originally Posted by TheCars1986

Laurie Gemmell willingly gave that information up to them. She also told them about the falsifying of prescriptions and illegal blood work she was doing, and said that she would do "anything for her friends". I think she got a little too charitable with what she was doing, lied about it, and then Duane found out (maybe she told him or offered the same to him) and he reported her. They even said that both she and Duane agreed on everything up to the point about whether or not Mary was legitimately fearful of him.

If Laurie had nothing to do with Mary's murder then she did a big disservice to her by not disclosing that in the segment and the years afterwards. Most of the segment is a huge finger point to Duane all the while Laurie knew, or at least suspected, that he had nothing to do with it.

I also completely forgot about the completed phone call. While not likely at all, I wonder if the phone call was answered by an LEO since it came in and was completed for four minutes. I also wonder if LE doesn't want to admit to that. Just a thought.

[LooksLikeCRicci]

I'mmmmm sorry, PROSECUTORS PODCAST??

Sign. Me. Up.

In all seriousness, we had a case out of Montana a few years back where a person staged their own kidnapping and "murder," complete with their body being found in a car trunk, but it was ruled to be a very elaborate suicide. Stranger things have happened.

[TheCars1986]

Originally Posted by LooksLikeCRicci

I'mmmmm sorry, PROSECUTORS PODCAST??

Sign. Me. Up.

It's very good but I can see why it isn't more popular. They *gasp* side with the prosecution on some cases in the true crime genre.

[Clockwork]

Whether it was a mistake hit or not, you can't tell me there isn't something eerie about two women with the same name, in the same area (okay maybe it was 20-30 minutes apart) being murdered in the same way in their cars and then say there isn't a connection.

Throw in the suspicion of Mike Morris and also the motive he had with $700,000 in his back pocket and I think you have a guy who probably got away with murder................so far.