Was Using Real Music on 'WKRP' A Big Mistake?!? - Sitcoms Online Message Boards

Brian Damage · 12-07-2010, 11:31 AM

Was using real music during its run hurting the success of this show now? While using real music gave the radio station sitcom a much more authentic feel,I do believe it has hindered dvd releases and possible sales. Agree? Disagree?

dlemond · 12-07-2010, 12:11 PM

That is pretty much a double edged sword.

The real music definitely added to the personality of the show and I loved that.

But if there were no real tunes then the DVDs could be a 100% reflection of what we remembered instead of a butchered version.

Can't fault the show anyway- who knew there be issues with the music back then? If they did know that, I'd still take the show the way it was.

What sucks is that even with the music replaced, other parts of the show get butchered. This has happened with a lot of shows, dialogue redone, scenes cut, or scenes that make reference to music that isn't there.

You can't even speak the lyrics outloud (without clearance or paying for it)

I still don't know how Freaks and Geeks managed to pay for all their music which in one season, I believe, used more actual songs than in the entire run of WKRP.

I wish Shout would get on that.

catlover79 · 12-07-2010, 12:19 PM

Back then, there was no such thing as TV on DVD, much less DVDs. So obviously they couldn't think that far ahead. Universal ponied up for all the musical rights to use in the Miami Vice DVDs and all 5 seasons of that show sold very well. Of course, the prices on those season sets were pretty high, but I don't think WKRP fans would have any qualms about paying extra if it means getting all the episodes fully intact with the original music.

Marvo301 · 12-07-2010, 04:03 PM

At the time the series was in production using all that "real music" was absolutely the right thing to do. It's only in retrospect that it became a mistake. They didn't have any idea at the time that in the future there would be something called DVD's and that TV shows would be released on that medium. Or that their use of "real music" would become a major issue holding up the release of WKRP on DVD. It's just a shame that this issue has been so detrimental to the legacy of such a great show.

MickeyMac · 12-07-2010, 07:29 PM

Using real music was a great idea. This show takes place at a radio station after all.

atcguy77 · 12-12-2010, 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marvo301

At the time the series was in production using all that "real music" was absolutely the right thing to do. It's only in retrospect that it became a mistake. They didn't have any idea at the time that in the future there would be something called DVD's and that TV shows would be released on that medium. Or that their use of "real music" would become a major issue holding up the release of WKRP on DVD. It's just a shame that this issue has been so detrimental to the legacy of such a great show.

I agree with Marvo301 that using popular music of the time was the right thing to do. I'll add that wanting to view reruns long after the music licenses ran out was just a gamble, but I don't necessarily agree that the lack of permanent licensing was a mistake only in retrospect.

It begs the notion that we haven't totally learned from history. Yes, many shows came and went without even a request for reruns, but why haven't we learned "Plan for the worst, hope for the best and take what you get"? By the time WKRP came around, there were plenty enough lessons to learn from. Examples that come to mind are: the Three Stooges had no inkling that their shows would make it big in syndication (through the new and not-yet-popular television), but they left no 'lifelong' stipulation in their contracts, so they missed out on big residuals. The cast of Gilligan's Island figured the show might play on reruns for a couple of years and never see TV again, sadly a miscalculation that apparently cost them many years worth of income.

Now the issue is, in this case, music changes as well as chopping from a 80% show-20% commercial format to 75% show - 25% commercial format.

Can anyone give a first-hand answer as to how much more a permanent license to use music costs over a temporary one? Double? Triple? More? Also, at what point is the difference considered significant? I suppose under the right circumstances, pennies saved can make the difference between a show being produced or not.

TMC · 11-27-2022, 04:41 AM

Correct me if I'm wrong, but WKRP used videotape because there used to be a licensing rule with either BMI or ASCAP that allowed a lower fee per song for videotaped shows; that's why all the variety shows of the era were shot that way. That rule expired in the 1990s around the same time as the music licensing contracts, and Pat Robertson owned MTM Productions and refused to foot the bill.

Alan Brady's Hair · 11-27-2022, 05:31 AM

WKRP creator Hugh Wilson on the music rights for the show:

https://youtu.be/PExGo9b1K44

He says there was a drastic increase in music fees between the time WKRP first aired and when it first became necessary to renew the rights. One factor may have been the success of the 1983 movie "The Big Chill", which was largely driven by its soundtrack.

BestTVever · 11-27-2022, 02:54 PM

What do TV networks do today when airing the show? I have not watched in a long time. Mamas Family did not air much music but the small parts where licensed music played hurt the show in syndication. For example the episode that used Chariots of Fire music was not seen on TV in decades until recently. The DVD versions have erased the original music and piped in something else. However when the show airs on TV today, the Chariots of Fire music and the Willie Nelson music is on TV yet not on the DVD. You think the artists dont care or got a pay day?
I wonder what they do with WRKP. IMHO all it does it promote your music so if I was an artist I would be thrilled my music was being played on TV. When youtube came out artists went nuts with all sorts of unauthorized music. But lately many artists see the benefit of it promoting you as an artist.

Yong Fang · 12-02-2022, 11:14 AM

One flaw in the radio station was that too much different kinds of music was played, and that the DJs more or less chose what they wanted to play which in real life would never happen. Andy would have to beg Johnny and force him to play from the "playlist" of current hits which Johnny didnt like.

Johnny would play mostly oldies like Jerry Lee Lewis, 1950's/early 1960's oldies on the morning shift. Venus at nightime would play mostly soul like stuff. In the daytime when Johnny and Venus are not in the booth, we hear 'Classic Rock" of the era (and the DJ booth with lots of posters from current bands of that era.)

I guess if they are still around, college radio stations and maybe there are some eclectic stations out there who jump all over, but consistancy is the norm. I know at least the main rock station in my hometown basically plays the same fifty songs over and over again. Or a Top 40 station, again, playing the same stuff over and over again, until it falls out of vogue for something else. A radio station has one genre, Country, Modern Rock, Classic Rock, Oldies, Beautiful Music, whatever.

cloggedmind · 12-02-2022, 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BestTVever

What do TV networks do today when airing the show? I have not watched in a long time. Mamas Family did not air much music but the small parts where licensed music played hurt the show in syndication. For example the episode that used Chariots of Fire music was not seen on TV in decades until recently. The DVD versions have erased the original music and piped in something else. However when the show airs on TV today, the Chariots of Fire music and the Willie Nelson music is on TV yet not on the DVD. You think the artists dont care or got a pay day?
I wonder what they do with WRKP. IMHO all it does it promote your music so if I was an artist I would be thrilled my music was being played on TV. When youtube came out artists went nuts with all sorts of unauthorized music. But lately many artists see the benefit of it promoting you as an artist.

I'd have to double-check, but I think the last release of the complete "Mama" from WB had all the licensed music intact. Only problem is that many episodes were syndicated edits, especially the early NBC ones. So, music included (even "I Feel Pretty"!) but no Alastair Quince intros, no voiceovers on the end credits where they used to be, and a scene or two cut here and there.

stevea · 12-02-2022, 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cloggedmind

I'd have to double-check, but I think the last release of the complete "Mama" from WB had all the licensed music intact. Only problem is that many episodes were syndicated edits, especially the early NBC ones. So, music included (even "I Feel Pretty"!) but no Alastair Quince intros, no voiceovers on the end credits where they used to be, and a scene or two cut here and there.

You're correct, I think. If you want the complete episodes from the NBC years, you have to edit the music into the Time Life version from a TV source (or those Warner DVDs), like I did.

From the syndicated years I kept my TBS recordings from around 2005.

stevea · 12-02-2022, 01:21 PM

What episode was I Feel Pretty in?

BestTVever · 12-02-2022, 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevea

You're correct, I think. If you want the complete episodes from the NBC years, you have to edit the music into the Time Life version from a TV source (or those Warner DVDs), like I did.

From the syndicated years I kept my TBS recordings from around 2005.

Its interesting because those Mamas Family episodes were not shown in syndication in the 90s on TBS. The DVD versions have edited in new music. However when you watch the show today on LOGO or another network, the original music is shown like no big deal.
Interesting. They got permission or they dont care?

stevea · 12-02-2022, 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BestTVever

Its interesting because those Mamas Family episodes were not shown in syndication in the 90s on TBS. The DVD versions have edited in new music. However when you watch the show today on LOGO or another network, the original music is shown like no big deal.
Interesting. They got permission or they dont care?

I think when the music was negotiated originally, TV showings in the future were considered part of the deal, but probably not physical media like DVDs.

I'm not sure why Warners would be able to include it but not Time Life, though. Maybe Warners owns the rights to the music anyway. It's really hard to understand music rights--I'd think that short snippet of Willie Nelson music would be fair use, but evidently not.

Mama's Family on TBS in the early 2000s were the syndication-cut episodes for seasons 1 and 2, including the music that Time Life cut.

12-07-2010, 11:31 AM	#1
Brian Damage I'm Rich Bitch Forum Icon Join Date: Feb 03, 2002 Location: What Ain't No Country I Ever Heard Of...They Speak English in What? Posts: 63,108	Was Using Real Music on 'WKRP' A Big Mistake?!? Was using real music during its run hurting the success of this show now? While using real music gave the radio station sitcom a much more authentic feel,I do believe it has hindered dvd releases and possible sales. Agree? Disagree?
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12-07-2010, 12:19 PM	#3
catlover79 God Bless Val Forum Addict Join Date: May 29, 2006 Location: Bewitched in Ohio Posts: 70,376	Back then, there was no such thing as TV on DVD, much less DVDs. So obviously they couldn't think that far ahead. Universal ponied up for all the musical rights to use in the Miami Vice DVDs and all 5 seasons of that show sold very well. Of course, the prices on those season sets were pretty high, but I don't think WKRP fans would have any qualms about paying extra if it means getting all the episodes fully intact with the original music.
	__________________ "Jesus loves you and He approves this message." "I'm alive. I'm feeling good. I'm trying to live every moment as much as I can." - Valerie Harper, March 2013

12-07-2010, 04:03 PM	#4
Marvo301 I'm NOT a Blockhead! Forum Celebrity Join Date: May 17, 2002 Location: The Great White North Posts: 21,450	At the time the series was in production using all that "real music" was absolutely the right thing to do. It's only in retrospect that it became a mistake. They didn't have any idea at the time that in the future there would be something called DVD's and that TV shows would be released on that medium. Or that their use of "real music" would become a major issue holding up the release of WKRP on DVD. It's just a shame that this issue has been so detrimental to the legacy of such a great show.
	__________________ Only a life lived for others is worth living. Albert Einstein A life isn't worth living unless it has impact on other lives. Jackie Robinson Be always at war with your vices, at peace with your neighbors, and let each new year find you a better man. Benjamin Franklin

11-27-2022, 04:41 AM	#7
TMC Member Forum Idol Join Date: Jan 09, 2001 Posts: 124,600	Correct me if I'm wrong, but WKRP used videotape because there used to be a licensing rule with either BMI or ASCAP that allowed a lower fee per song for videotaped shows; that's why all the variety shows of the era were shot that way. That rule expired in the 1990s around the same time as the music licensing contracts, and Pat Robertson owned MTM Productions and refused to foot the bill.
	Last edited by TMC; 11-30-2022 at 01:16 AM.

12-07-2010, 12:11 PM	#2
dlemond Hey, I know you. Moderator Forum Veteran Join Date: Dec 03, 2001 Location: New Jersey Posts: 6,752	That is pretty much a double edged sword. The real music definitely added to the personality of the show and I loved that. But if there were no real tunes then the DVDs could be a 100% reflection of what we remembered instead of a butchered version. Can't fault the show anyway- who knew there be issues with the music back then? If they did know that, I'd still take the show the way it was. What sucks is that even with the music replaced, other parts of the show get butchered. This has happened with a lot of shows, dialogue redone, scenes cut, or scenes that make reference to music that isn't there. You can't even speak the lyrics outloud (without clearance or paying for it) I still don't know how Freaks and Geeks managed to pay for all their music which in one season, I believe, used more actual songs than in the entire run of WKRP. I wish Shout would get on that.

12-07-2010, 07:29 PM	#5
MickeyMac Member Forum Star Join Date: Jun 18, 2008 Location: Kalamazoo, Michigan Posts: 19,004	Using real music was a great idea. This show takes place at a radio station after all.

11-27-2022, 05:31 AM	#8
Alan Brady's Hair Member Senior Member Join Date: Aug 30, 2014 Posts: 1,822	WKRP creator Hugh Wilson on the music rights for the show: https://youtu.be/PExGo9b1K44 He says there was a drastic increase in music fees between the time WKRP first aired and when it first became necessary to renew the rights. One factor may have been the success of the 1983 movie "The Big Chill", which was largely driven by its soundtrack.

11-27-2022, 02:54 PM	#9
BestTVever Member Senior Member Join Date: Jan 29, 2021 Location: Miami Posts: 1,877	What do TV networks do today when airing the show? I have not watched in a long time. Mamas Family did not air much music but the small parts where licensed music played hurt the show in syndication. For example the episode that used Chariots of Fire music was not seen on TV in decades until recently. The DVD versions have erased the original music and piped in something else. However when the show airs on TV today, the Chariots of Fire music and the Willie Nelson music is on TV yet not on the DVD. You think the artists dont care or got a pay day? I wonder what they do with WRKP. IMHO all it does it promote your music so if I was an artist I would be thrilled my music was being played on TV. When youtube came out artists went nuts with all sorts of unauthorized music. But lately many artists see the benefit of it promoting you as an artist.

12-02-2022, 11:14 AM	#10
Yong Fang Member Forum 3000 Club Member Join Date: Aug 04, 2009 Location: Memphis Tennessee Posts: 3,072	One flaw in the radio station was that too much different kinds of music was played, and that the DJs more or less chose what they wanted to play which in real life would never happen. Andy would have to beg Johnny and force him to play from the "playlist" of current hits which Johnny didnt like. Johnny would play mostly oldies like Jerry Lee Lewis, 1950's/early 1960's oldies on the morning shift. Venus at nightime would play mostly soul like stuff. In the daytime when Johnny and Venus are not in the booth, we hear 'Classic Rock" of the era (and the DJ booth with lots of posters from current bands of that era.) I guess if they are still around, college radio stations and maybe there are some eclectic stations out there who jump all over, but consistancy is the norm. I know at least the main rock station in my hometown basically plays the same fifty songs over and over again. Or a Top 40 station, again, playing the same stuff over and over again, until it falls out of vogue for something else. A radio station has one genre, Country, Modern Rock, Classic Rock, Oldies, Beautiful Music, whatever.

12-02-2022, 01:21 PM	#13
stevea 22 Years On Sitcoms Moderator Forum Legend Join Date: Aug 13, 2003 Location: Indy Posts: 44,228	What episode was I Feel Pretty in?