Tony and Angela getting together ruined the show

[Novera]

Originally Posted by peteemory

Their getting together in Season 8 didn't ruin the show. The horrific scripts ruined the show (the scheduling switch from Tuesdays to Saturdays destroyed the show's heretofore ratings). They (Tony & Judith) had tremendous screen chemistry and it was almost completely destroyed by having the Tony character become a complete jerk by the final season. Happens to lots of sitcoms near the end of their run: often the main character(s) just become dumber versions of themselves. Sad.

I used to think the same thing. That their getting together killed the show, by killing off the "will they or wont they" tension of the series.

But in hindsight I agree with you, it was the material itself that killed it. The exaggerated situations/funny gags would've been better in smaller doses, but they were constant. This made the show seem silly, with actual slapstick gags happening in each episode. I rewatched the series recently and couldn't believe they actually had Tony's ass break through the ceiling followed by the ubiquitous "I've fallen and I can't get up!" line. This used to be a show about a poor housekepper struggling to pay for things so his daughter could fit in with her new (wealthy) friends!

I wonder what would've happened if they had written it like a season 3 or 4 era writing style. They get together and there are realistic story lines, like Jonathan/Samantha struggling with them being married (should I call her mom, should I call him dad). How their extended families react, what the neighbours say, etc.

I think they were stuck at this point, the shows ratings were waning and they must've thought "ok lets make this over the top fun to keep people engaged". The problem is, even if they wrote it realistically, the show had been on for so long people just lost interest. The fire/passion of "OMG will they actually hook up?" had turned into two older single people who finally settle down... not much spice at that point.

[peteemory]

Originally Posted by Novera

I used to think the same thing. That their getting together killed the show, by killing off the "will they or wont they" tension of the series.

But in hindsight I agree with you, it was the material itself that killed it. The exaggerated situations/funny gags would've been better in smaller doses, but they were constant. This made the show seem silly, with actual slapstick gags happening in each episode. I rewatched the series recently and couldn't believe they actually had Tony's ass break through the ceiling followed by the ubiquitous "I've fallen and I can't get up!" line. This used to be a show about a poor housekepper struggling to pay for things so his daughter could fit in with her new (wealthy) friends!

I wonder what would've happened if they had written it like a season 3 or 4 era writing style. They get together and there are realistic story lines, like Jonathan/Samantha struggling with them being married (should I call her mom, should I call him dad). How their extended families react, what the neighbours say, etc.

I think they were stuck at this point, the shows ratings were waning and they must've thought "ok lets make this over the top fun to keep people engaged". The problem is, even if they wrote it realistically, the show had been on for so long people just lost interest. The fire/passion of "OMG will they actually hook up?" had turned into two older single people who finally settle down... not much spice at that point.

Hi Novera:

Many thanks for your thoughtful reply.

I agree with your assessment of what was likely going-on with the show and how much investment (or lack thereof) that ABC had at the time as regards top-flight scripts for the show. What's more, given that the show is a sitcom, I believe it's safe to assume no one at the network was losing sleep over the brain-dead silliness of much of the final season, especially since it was a sinking ship ratings-wise at that point too. I always consider the great "Seinfeld" when I look at the concluding years of a sitcom...even that wonderful show had many dumb moments during the final season or two in which the leads essentially traded mean-spirited barbs with one another. And when a show reaches that point, I get frustrated and lose all interest. That said, "WTB" really had something special with the Angela-Tony relationship, so (for me) it's sad to see how it devolved.

[peteemory]

Originally Posted by Novera

I used to think the same thing. That their getting together killed the show, by killing off the "will they or wont they" tension of the series.

But in hindsight I agree with you, it was the material itself that killed it. The exaggerated situations/funny gags would've been better in smaller doses, but they were constant. This made the show seem silly, with actual slapstick gags happening in each episode. I rewatched the series recently and couldn't believe they actually had Tony's ass break through the ceiling followed by the ubiquitous "I've fallen and I can't get up!" line. This used to be a show about a poor housekepper struggling to pay for things so his daughter could fit in with her new (wealthy) friends!

I wonder what would've happened if they had written it like a season 3 or 4 era writing style. They get together and there are realistic story lines, like Jonathan/Samantha struggling with them being married (should I call her mom, should I call him dad). How their extended families react, what the neighbours say, etc.

I think they were stuck at this point, the shows ratings were waning and they must've thought "ok lets make this over the top fun to keep people engaged". The problem is, even if they wrote it realistically, the show had been on for so long people just lost interest. The fire/passion of "OMG will they actually hook up?" had turned into two older single people who finally settle down... not much spice at that point.

Hi Novera:

Many thanks for your thoughtful reply.

I agree with your assessment of what was likely going-on with the show and how much investment (or lack thereof) that ABC had at the time as regards top-flight scripts for it. What's more, given that the show is a sitcom, I believe it's safe to assume no one at the network was losing sleep over the brain-dead silliness of much of the final season, especially since it was a sinking ship ratings-wise at that point. I always consider the great "Seinfeld" when I look at the concluding years of a sitcom...even that wonderful show had many dumb moments during the final season or two in which the leads essentially traded mean-spirited barbs with one another. And when a show reaches that point, I get frustrated and lose all interest. That said, "WTB" really had something special with the Angela-Tony relationship, so (for me) it's sad to see how it devolved.

[Novera]

Originally Posted by peteemory

Hi Novera:
Many thanks for your thoughtful reply.
... That said, "WTB" really had something special with the Angela-Tony relationship, so (for me) it's sad to see how it devolved.

First - you're very welcome!

I feel the same way about watching it end that way. Me and my family (Italian immigrants) loved the series and watched it together all the time, so it will always be associated with family memories to me. Everyone wanted them to get together while watching over the years and I remember being a bit sad that when it finally happened in 1991/92, no one in my family was really watching anymore.

The worst part was the way it ended on the last episode. When I watched it I thought of all the years and years I watched it with my family, the laughs we had etc. ... then it just sorta went to black and that was it. Spring '92 always felt like the true "end to the 80s" for me because that's when all the big 80s sitcoms ended (Cosby Show/Growing pains/Golden girls etc.)

[peteemory]

Originally Posted by Novera

First - you're very welcome!

I feel the same way about watching it end that way. Me and my family (Italian immigrants) loved the series and watched it together all the time, so it will always be associated with family memories to me. Everyone wanted them to get together while watching over the years and I remember being a bit sad that when it finally happened in 1991/92, no one in my family was really watching anymore.

The worst part was the way it ended on the last episode. When I watched it I thought of all the years and years I watched it with my family, the laughs we had etc. ... then it just sorta went to black and that was it. Spring '92 always felt like the true "end to the 80s" for me because that's when all the big 80s sitcoms ended (Cosby Show/Growing pains/Golden girls etc.)

It can be strange and abrupt when a series ends: like a whole world has gone away. And I know what you mean by your "end to the 80s" remark, a decade never really ends on the last day of the final year of that decade...they tend to spill over into the next decade before they're really done. By this measure, IMHO the 70s ended in about mid-1983. At least that's how it felt to me.

[Novera]

Originally Posted by peteemory

It can be strange and abrupt when a series ends: like a whole world has gone away. And I know what you mean by your "end to the 80s" remark, a decade never really ends on the last day of the final year of that decade...they tend to spill over into the next decade before they're really done. By this measure, IMHO the 70s ended in about mid-1983. At least that's how it felt to me.

I agree with you on the 70s ending around then! I was a toddler at the time, but re-watching shows and listening to music of that time (through they eyes of an adult) really makes me feel the same way.

Like rock and general pop hits still sound 70s-ish to me until around 83/84. Something changed there, a bright shiny neon flash of colour seemed to be added Plus drum machines and synths were at a point where you didn't need to be as rich as people like Prince or a big band. So everyone's sound seemed to be closer to what we consider an "80s sound".

Like that song "Centerfold" which is always showing up on 80s compilations, when I hear it next to a song from 1984, it sounds like different decades to me!

[TMC]

Originally Posted by peteemory

Their getting together in Season 8 didn't ruin the show. The horrific scripts ruined the show (the scheduling switch from Tuesdays to Saturdays destroyed the show's heretofore ratings). They (Tony & Judith) had tremendous screen chemistry and it was almost completely destroyed by having the Tony character become a complete jerk by the final season. Happens to lots of sitcoms near the end of their run: often the main character(s) just become dumber versions of themselves. Sad.

Rewatching the show on GAC Family, I started to wonder if Who's the Boss? had a clear cut "jump the shark" moment? Somebody on the old IMDb boards, wrote that introduction of Billy in Season 7 was when the show JTS. And yet, on the old JTS website, Billy only got 11 votes, placing his arrival in fourth place.

[TMC]

Originally Posted by Novera

I agree with you on the 70s ending around then! I was a toddler at the time, but re-watching shows and listening to music of that time (through they eyes of an adult) really makes me feel the same way.

Like rock and general pop hits still sound 70s-ish to me until around 83/84. Something changed there, a bright shiny neon flash of colour seemed to be added Plus drum machines and synths were at a point where you didn't need to be as rich as people like Prince or a big band. So everyone's sound seemed to be closer to what we consider an "80s sound".

Like that song "Centerfold" which is always showing up on 80s compilations, when I hear it next to a song from 1984, it sounds like different decades to me!

TV wise, the '70s may have also officially symbolically ended around 1983-84. The transition from the '70s to the '80s began with the end of Barney Miller and to a lesser extent, Mork & Mindy, WKRP in 1982, which also was the year that Family Ties and Cheers premiered. But the period from 1983-84, saw the end of Happy Days, Laverne & Shirley, Taxi, M*A*S*H, Archie Bunker's Place (and by extension, All in the Family), Three's Company, and One Day at a Time. 1984 was arguably when the '80s were officially in "full swing" TV-wise since that was the year that The Cosby Show (the biggest TV show of the decade, period) and Miami Vice (the TV show that arguably defined the decade above all others) debuted.

[TMC]

Originally Posted by UMfan77

Does anyone here think that when Tony and Angela started dating, it kind of ruined the show, or should I say, "jumped the shark"? I think there was an awkwardness with Tony and Angela dating, engagement and marriage. It just didn't feel right to me. I think the show was more appealing when they were employer and housekeeper. What does everyone else think?

I don't know how much a difference a director makes, but it's awfully incidental that the supposed moment(s) that Who's the Boss? jumping the shark coincided with Tony Singletary replacing Asaad Kelada as the resident director beginning in Season 7. Kelada had directed virtually every single episode of Who's the Boss? from Season 2 (as well as some in Season 1) on through Season 6.

[peteemory]

Yes, WTB definitely feels different with the change in directors. Of course, from the looks of how it changed it may very well have been a directive from the network to make things more farcicle in an attempt to save the sinking ratings. Always a bad idea of course, but this plan wouldn't surprise me. TV sitcoms seem to always go into a sort of "desperation mode" as soon as ratings begin to fall.

[TMC]

Originally Posted by peteemory

Yes, WTB definitely feels different with the change in directors. Of course, from the looks of how it changed it may very well have been a directive from the network to make things more farcical in an attempt to save the sinking ratings. Always a bad idea of course, but this plan wouldn't surprise me. TV sitcoms seem to always go into a sort of "desperation mode" as soon as ratings begin to fall.

One subtle change that I notice in the last two years of the show is that the episodes would begin with a cold opening instead of merely going straight to the opening credits sequence.

[TMC]

Originally Posted by peteemory

Yes, WTB definitely feels different with the change in directors. Of course, from the looks of how it changed it may very well have been a directive from the network to make things more farcical in an attempt to save the sinking ratings. Always a bad idea of course, but this plan wouldn't surprise me. TV sitcoms seem to always go into a sort of "desperation mode" as soon as ratings begin to fall.

I went back and looked into the old Jump the Shark website, and one comment near the very bottom suggested that the best way to pinpoint when Who's the Boss? started declining in quality was when Tony decided to enroll in college. The point being that when a show feels that it needs to expand the characters' roles, that's a tell-tale sign that it's in a tailspin. The show's formula the argument says, was already fine when it was simply about a male housekeeper moving with his daughter to Connecticut to keep her away from the tough hoods of Brooklyn.

This is another comment that really caught my eye:

The slight change to the theme music around 1990 or so did not, in and of itself, send the show over Mr. Sharky. However, it does serve as a signal that the rerun you are watching is indeed a post-JTS episode. It was around this time that Tony was heavily into his college studies, Sam was leaving the nest and heading to college (the SAME college as it turns out), Tony and Angela were openly acknowledging their long-standing romantic feelings for each other, which would soon be acted upon, and poor, poor Jonathan was right smack in the middle of what was probably one of the ten most unkind puberties in sitcom history. Yes, the moment I hear that soprano sax begin during the introduction to "Brand New Life," I realize that even if I BEGIN to watch the impending Nick at Nite rerun of WTB, I will undoubtedly be changing the channel before the first commercial.

[TMC]

Originally Posted by peteemory

Yes, WTB definitely feels different with the change in directors. Of course, from the looks of how it changed it may very well have been a directive from the network to make things more farcicle in an attempt to save the sinking ratings. Always a bad idea of course, but this plan wouldn't surprise me. TV sitcoms seem to always go into a sort of "desperation mode" as soon as ratings begin to fall.

I was watching some of Season 7 and 8 the other day, and it never really occurred to me that the show got more overtly farcical in its final years until you mentioned that. And now that I think about it, I believe that you may be on to something.

A clear cut example of this is an episode from the last season in which Tony gets an allergy on his lips. He initially assumes that it's from all of the stress and anxiety over his upcoming nuptials with Angela. But it turns out that his lips suddenly getting big was due to a reaction to the licking envelops.

And there was in I believe that same season, the "Misery" episode, where Tony has to take care of a bed-ridden Angela after she hurts her ankle. That was another one of those, "too cartoonish for its own good" type of episodes.

Again, I don't have a clear cut idea if the new director, Tony Singletary and/or a new set of writers are to blame for the change in tone. Singletary had replaced Asaad Kelada as the director beginning in Season 7.

[TMC]

Originally Posted by tmac81s

Actually, I think adding young Billy was when it "jumped the shark" at least they got rid of him the next season.

I also agree, that they waited too long to get them together. by that time, it just wasn't natural. it would have happened a couple years earlier.

i remember when it was originally on, reading in some magazine that the plan was for that season, that they'd be married during November sweeps, then the season would end with Angela being pregnant and going into labor in a cliffhanger, leading into another season for the show. i don't remember where i read this, it was a long time ago!

I wonder if it wasn't so much that they waited too long to put Tony and Angela together or the fact that they got together in the first place "ruined the show" and the chemistry between one another if you want to put it that way. Tony's character was now in a different place than the way that he was early in the show's run. To quote somebody else on online, Tony Micelli went from being an easy-going, straight out of Brooklyn kind of guy (similar to Tony Danza's persona on Taxi) to an uptight, extremely embarrassing and overprotective father (a la Danny Tanner on Full House).

The point is that towards the end, it was no longer fun to watch some upper/upper-middle class woman like Angela Bower react to the things done by some dude from Brooklyn. The fact that the characters came from different backgrounds created the sexual tension in the first place. And that made the show interesting for the first few years.

[TMC]

Originally Posted by TMC

I was watching some of Season 7 and 8 the other day, and it never really occurred to me that the show got more overtly farcical in its final years until you mentioned that. And now that I think about it, I believe that you may be on to something.

A clear cut example of this is an episode from the last season in which Tony gets an allergy on his lips. He initially assumes that it's from all of the stress and anxiety over his upcoming nuptials with Angela. But it turns out that his lips suddenly getting big was due to a reaction to the licking envelops.

And there was in I believe that same season, the "Misery" episode, where Tony has to take care of a bed-ridden Angela after she hurts her ankle. That was another one of those, "too cartoonish for its own good" type of episodes.

Again, I don't have a clear cut idea if the new director, Tony Singletary and/or a new set of writers are to blame for the change in tone. Singletary had replaced Asaad Kelada as the director beginning in Season 7.

There was also an episode from the last season where Angela and Mona encounter a man at a spa who just so happens to look exactly like Tony except with a moustache. It really seemed like the writers were running out of good ideas towards the end.

Yes, Tony Danza did play somebody else besides Tony Micelli on Who's the Boss? once prior. There was that episode from the fifth season where he played his paternal grandfather, but at least with that, it didn't feel like it belonged in a campy, cartoonish, farce like Three's Company or Gilligan's Island.