Mary Morris murder discussion back on....THIS THREAD ONLY!!

[tsaun]

Originally Posted by RobinW

The idea of a contract killer murdering the wrong person after they were hired by the victim's own husband is the most farfetched part of this scenario, but some people in this thread have theorized that Mike could have hired the killer through an intermediary and never actually met him face-to-face. If the hitman was from out of town and not particularly competent at their job, then I guess it's possible he could have simply looked up Mary Morris' name in the phone book or something and targeted the wrong person.


I think the murder of the first Mary Morris was always meant to be a straightforward hit and never intended to look like a suicide, so the killer wasn't too concerned about using the victim's gun to commit the crime. It was only after they realized they'd killed the wrong person that they decided to go through with Plan B and attempted to fabricate a suicide scenario for Mary Morris#2.

Mary Morris #2 was beaten before she was killed. I think that rules out a staged suicide theory.

I don't think they are related.

[tsaun]

Do we know what happened to Mary's cell phone? Was it found at the crime scene?

[soilentgreen]

Originally Posted by tsaun

Mary Morris #2 was beaten before she was killed. I think that rules out a staged suicide theory.

I don't think they are related.

I've never been sure about the mistaken hit theory - other than similar names, they had no ties, and they didn't live near each other. The "wrong Mary Morris" call after Henderson-Morris' murder lent itself to the hitman screwup theory, but it might have been a red herring.

It's possible that Henderson-Morris was killed in a random carjacking/attack (with the vehicle being incinerated to destroy fingerprints or other evidence). The guy who was making crank calls to her husband's unlisted number was traced back to a nearby apartment complex, but there's no further information about the him or how he had accessed the number.

[TheCars1986]

Random theory that I just had after listening to RobinW's recent episode about this case: what if the first Mary Morris was the intended target all along? I know every piece of information about this case says she had no known enemies, but consider:

-Her body and her car were burned beyond recognition. No cause of death was able to be determined.
-The entire focus of every outlet that has profiled this case has been on Mary McGinnis and potential suspects that would want her dead. We know next to nothing about Mary Lou's background other than an ex-husband, husband, and daughter.
-The phone call shortly after she was murdered about getting "the wrong Mary Morris".
-Her purse was taken from the vehicle and later dumped. Her wedding ring was also taken but never found.
-She was killed shortly after leaving her house for work that morning.

I know it's unlikely, but it seems like most of the attention on this case has been placed on Mary McGinnis and her background, when, IMO, it's likely that Mary Lou could have been the intended target all along. What better way to throw off the trail of an investigation than to murder Mary Lou, phone a newspaper about the "wrong Mary Morris", and then kill another woman with the same name in the same city? And why burn her body beyond recognition, but sloppily try to make Mary McGinnis's murder look like a suicide? If Mary Lou was the victim of a botched hit, wouldn't the hitman have known right away that he got the wrong Mary Morris after taking her purse? Why take her wedding ring too? My other main issue with the botched hit where Mary McGinnis was the intended target is that the 2 main suspects: Duane Young and Mike Morris, both had access to pictures of Mary McGinnis. You would think they would have shown a hitman a picture of the correct Mary Morris. Mary Lou was found dead roughly 3 and a half hours after leaving for work that morning. Meaning her killer was waiting for her, or knew her routine. Which also supports the theory that whoever killed her intended on doing so.

[RobinW]

Originally Posted by TheCars1986

Random theory that I just had after listening to RobinW's recent episode about this case: what if the first Mary Morris was the intended target all along? I know every piece of information about this case says she had no known enemies, but consider:

-Her body and her car were burned beyond recognition. No cause of death was able to be determined.
-The entire focus of every outlet that has profiled this case has been on Mary McGinnis and potential suspects that would want her dead. We know next to nothing about Mary Lou's background other than an ex-husband, husband, and daughter.
-The phone call shortly after she was murdered about getting "the wrong Mary Morris".
-Her purse was taken from the vehicle and later dumped. Her wedding ring was also taken but never found.
-She was killed shortly after leaving her house for work that morning.

I know it's unlikely, but it seems like most of the attention on this case has been placed on Mary McGinnis and her background, when, IMO, it's likely that Mary Lou could have been the intended target all along. What better way to throw off the trail of an investigation than to murder Mary Lou, phone a newspaper about the "wrong Mary Morris", and then kill another woman with the same name in the same city? And why burn her body beyond recognition, but sloppily try to make Mary McGinnis's murder look like a suicide? If Mary Lou was the victim of a botched hit, wouldn't the hitman have known right away that he got the wrong Mary Morris after taking her purse? Why take her wedding ring too? My other main issue with the botched hit where Mary McGinnis was the intended target is that the 2 main suspects: Duane Young and Mike Morris, both had access to pictures of Mary McGinnis. You would think they would have shown a hitman a picture of the correct Mary Morris. Mary Lou was found dead roughly 3 and a half hours after leaving for work that morning. Meaning her killer was waiting for her, or knew her routine. Which also supports the theory that whoever killed her intended on doing so.

I've actually had quite a few people suggest this idea to me since the episode was released yesterday. The thing that's always bothered me is that if Mary Henderson Morris was the intended target all along and the murder of Mary McGinnis Morris was just a diversion to throw off the investigation, then the perpetrator got EXTREMELY lucky. Unless they somehow had knowledge of Mary McGinnis' personal life, they got a major break when they selected another person named Mary Morris who just happened to have suspects in her life with plausible motives to her. She had...

-a hostile coworker who allegedly rearranged items in Mary's office and wrote a threatening message on his desk calendar the SAME DAY Mary Henderson was murdered before he was subsequently fired
-a troubled marriage to a jealous husband who accused her of having an affair and had a substantial life insurance policy on her
-a husband who made a suspicious-looking four-minute call to her cell phone after her presumed murder which has never been satisfactorily explained

So of course, with all that, you can see why so much of the investigation's focus is going to be on the second Mary Morris. It would be something if all those elements surrounding Mary McGinnis' death were nothing more than red herrings, but it seems like too many coincidences to me. But if Mary McGinnis did not have so much drama going on in her personal life at the time she was killed, then perhaps people would be looking at Mary Henderson's murder a lot differently.

[dynoguy88]

It's hard for me to buy the police's opinion that the murders have no connection whatsoever.

It's kind of like the investigators in Montana who said they don't believe Father Kerrigan's abduction, torture and murder is tied to the very long list of children he sexually abused over the course of many years.

Coincidences are not impossible. But still not likely.

[TheCars1986]

Originally Posted by RobinW

So of course, with all that, you can see why so much of the investigation's focus is going to be on the second Mary Morris. It would be something if all those elements surrounding Mary McGinnis' death were nothing more than red herrings, but it seems like too many coincidences to me. But if Mary McGinnis did not have so much drama going on in her personal life at the time she was killed, then perhaps people would be looking at Mary Henderson's murder a lot differently.

I think it's possible that if Mary Henderson was the target, that by killing a 2nd Mary Morris was simply to throw off the investigators as some nutjob intent on murdering people with the same name (a la Terminator). They could have simply lucked into the fact that they got one had a rocky personal life at the time. I mean look at the Sammy Wheeler and Eric Tamiyasu murders. They had "baggage" in their lives too, as well as 3 potential suspects from their personal lives. I think there are more seemingly "regluar people" out there who if something mysterious were to happen to them (murder, disappearance), there are more skeletons in their closets that could come out and make people suspicious of those in their personal lives.

[Charlie99909]

Originally Posted by RobinW

I've actually had quite a few people suggest this idea to me since the episode was released yesterday. The thing that's always bothered me is that if Mary Henderson Morris was the intended target all along and the murder of Mary McGinnis Morris was just a diversion to throw off the investigation, then the perpetrator got EXTREMELY lucky. Unless they somehow had knowledge of Mary McGinnis' personal life, they got a major break when they selected another person named Mary Morris who just happened to have suspects in her life with plausible motives to her. She had...

-a hostile coworker who allegedly rearranged items in Mary's office and wrote a threatening message on his desk calendar the SAME DAY Mary Henderson was murdered before he was subsequently fired
-a troubled marriage to a jealous husband who accused her of having an affair and had a substantial life insurance policy on her
-a husband who made a suspicious-looking four-minute call to her cell phone after her presumed murder which has never been satisfactorily explained

So of course, with all that, you can see why so much of the investigation's focus is going to be on the second Mary Morris. It would be something if all those elements surrounding Mary McGinnis' death were nothing more than red herrings, but it seems like too many coincidences to me. But if Mary McGinnis did not have so much drama going on in her personal life at the time she was killed, then perhaps people would be looking at Mary Henderson's murder a lot differently.

Has the episode been removed? I listened to it and I don’t see it anymore.

[mozartpc27]

The Mary Henderson murder has alway really bugged me, and one of the things that bugs me is: with no cause of death determined, how can they say for sure it was murder at all?

If instead it was some freak accident or (less likely) some weird suicide, it would explain the total lack of suspects or apparent motive.

[MegtheEgg86]

Originally Posted by mozartpc27

The Mary Henderson murder has alway really bugged me, and one of the things that bugs me is: with no cause of death determined, how can they say for sure it was murder at all?

If instead it was some freak accident or (less likely) some weird suicide, it would explain the total lack of suspects or apparent motive.

That would've been an intense unexplained burn a la Aileen Conway--who at least appeared to have crashed into a guardrail. I'd also have to wonder what became of her wedding ring.

For me, this is one of those limited cases in which I agree the "segment narrative" is what happened. I think they got the wrong Mary Morris the first time. Whether it's the coworker or the spouse, I haven't yet decided. I lean toward Mike Morris, personally.

[MegtheEgg86]

Ok, so I watched this one again yesterday and listened to it on the way home from work (don't judge--I know at least some of y'all out here doing the same thing). It's been several months since I last watched the segment, and I had forgotten how solid the entire episode actually is (aside from that throw-away bit about the "alternative healer" from Russia): the Mary Morris murders, Leonard Dirickson, and Lita McClinton Sullivan segments are all included in it.

I know only yesterday I said Mike Morris is probably the most suspicious, but I watched and listened to the segment a little more closely both times. I got a different impression.

It seems to me a number of nuances come into play regarding the investigation into Mike Morris:

1. Law enforcement starts with the spouse. Statistically, it's quite often the spouse. He's a logical connection if investigators can make it.

2. One investigator in particular seemed perturbed that Mike Morris would not A) meet with them without an attorney, B) would not take a polygraph test, and C) would not allow the couples' daughter to be questioned. I find Mike's explanation that he was taking legal advice on at least the first two items to be reasonable and plausible. It's certainly probably true that most individuals law enforcement question often "don't bring/need an attorney", simply because they trust that the police will act in good faith, are ignorant of their right to have counsel present (even when not in custody), or both. It is unusual, though perhaps not ill-advised, and I personally think this may have prejudiced at least Det. Kuhlman of Harris Co against Mike.

I don't have kids, so I can't speak from a parent's perspective, but I can envision a situation in which someone watching their child absorb the shock of her mother's death would be prickly about the police asking them questions. I might feel the same way.

3. It's unclear how much investigators knew or understood about the way cell phone calls were logged or billed with that particular provider in the early aughts. I would be interested to know if they ever did consult with the Morris' provider to determine exactly how those calls were logged--did an "unreasonable" amount of ring time become a completed call, as posited earlier in this thread? Additionally--and I'll admit I haven't slowed the playback or paused the video to look--but there appears to have been a two-minute phone call that was placed just after Mary's call to 911 and just before the contentious four-minute phone call. Was this the emergency services operator calling back, or something else? How much of this did the investigators actually understand?

4. The only real apparent motive for Mike Morris to have killed Mary is a life insurance policy. Apparently, at the time Mike was having difficulty finding work since the family's move to Texas. A financial motive seems a little tenuous, provided Mary's occupation as a nurse practitioner in a state in which nurses--especially advanced practice nurses--enjoy healthy salaries. Unless Mike had some sort of extreme vice such as compulsive gambling or the like, I just don't see why he would have hired a hitman to kill his wife for the insurance payout.

[Mike82]

Originally Posted by MegTheEgg86

I know only yesterday I said Mike Morris is probably the most suspicious, but I watched and listened to the segment a little more closely both times. I got a different impression.

I pretty much agree with your entire assessment. In particular #2: I used to see that as highly suspicious until I had my own run in with law enforcement (traffic, not criminal). Simply put, my experiences have shown me some cops and prosectuors are pathological liars who will twist innocent words into something completely different. I would also never take a polygraph as they are pseudoscientific nonsense and someone with severe anxiety (like me) would probably fail anyway. I also agree with your cell phone observations: where is the expert on the subject? It certainly isn't the police!

I get the impression either Mike is the luckiest AND dumbest criminal in UM history or the simpler answer: while they might not have had the dream relationship he is definitely no murderer. I never once got the slightly impression he had anything to do with both murders, either as the perpetrator or the one who hired the hitman.

[tarheelslim]

Originally Posted by Charlie99909

Has the episode been removed? I listened to it and I don’t see it anymore.

It's still on Spotify.

[Charlie99909]

Originally Posted by tarheelslim

It's still on Spotify.

Don’t have it on my app.

[Todd Mueller]

Originally Posted by Charlie99909

Don’t have it on my app.

I just checked and it's on the Apple podcast app. Go to the main feed for TTWC and the episode is there.