Does Norman Lear ultimately deserve blame for the downfall of "Good Times"

[TMC]

If you want to consider it a "downfall" (many point to John Amos' firing/James Sr.'s death as the jump the shark moment). From what I've heard (and please if anybody can back me up it would be a major plus), JJ's original character (during the early development phase) was going to be bombastic and talkative, yet still at the end of the day, a smart bookworm and good student. Rumor has it that as soon as Norman Lear caught Jimmie Walker's stand up act in Los Angeles, that was when it was decided that JJ would instead be this shucking and jiving slickster w/ the "Dy-no-mite!" catchphrase for good measure.

Apparently, Norman Lear's dad was a huge racist, so Norman tried to deal with racism THROUGH laughter. The problem is, is that he made the show Good Times into a sad "woe is me" type show where they never made any significant advancements, then threw in the "shucking and jiving" to top it off. Then they gave JJ all the plum plots/screentime and naturally, Esther Rolle and John Amos hated it because they considered themselves trained actors caught up in JJ/Jimmie Walker's "mess" & buffoonery. In other words, Lear was too heavy-handed and made a mess of that show.

[Yong Fang]

I don't know, the show did last a long time. Jimmie Walker became the star of the show, and Esther Rolle and John Amos were simply jealous and didn't like it. JJ wasn't a bad role model actually. He was a bit of a buffoon....because he played a teenage kid! JJ was also a talented artist, loved his family, loved his siblings and was respectful.

Not to stray into a racial thing, but Willona was a lot more ghetto and shuck and jive. Again, and I should not have to apologize, but these shows were written by Jews who did not have any experience living in inner city ghettos and did have a racial bias. Saul Turtletaub and Bud Yorkin were the head writers for Sanford and Son, I mean, HELLO!

[Will Dockery]

Originally Posted by Yong Fang

I don't know, the show did last a long time. Jimmie Walker became the star of the show, and Esther Rolle and John Amos were simply jealous and didn't like it. JJ wasn't a bad role model actually. He was a bit of a buffoon....because he played a teenage kid! JJ was also a talented artist, loved his family, loved his siblings and was respectful.

Not to stray into a racial thing, but Willona was a lot more ghetto and shuck and jive. Again, and I should not have to apologize, but these shows were written by Jews who did not have any experience living in inner city ghettos and did have a racial bias. Saul Turtletaub and Bud Yorkin were the head writers for Sanford and Son, I mean, HELLO!

The J.J. character just clicked with the young folks of that era, much like Fonzie... the producers of the show understandably wanted to run with that popularity.

[king of comedy]

Originally Posted by TMC

If you want to consider it a "downfall" (many point to John Amos' firing/James Sr.'s death as the jump the shark moment). From what I've heard (and please if anybody can back me up it would be a major plus), JJ's original character (during the early development phase) was going to be bombastic and talkative, yet still at the end of the day, a smart bookworm and good student. Rumor has it that as soon as Norman Lear caught Jimmie Walker's stand up act in Los Angeles, that was when it was decided that JJ would instead be this shucking and jiving slickster w/ the "Dy-no-mite!" catchphrase for good measure.

Apparently, Norman Lear's dad was a huge racist, so Norman tried to deal with racism THROUGH laughter. The problem is, is that he made the show Good Times into a sad "woe is me" type show where they never made any significant advancements, then threw "shucking and jiving" into it over the top of it. Then they gave JJ all the plum plots/screentime and naturally, Ester Rolle and John Amos hated it because they considered themselves trained actors caught up in JJ/Jimmie Walker's "mess" & buffoonery. In other words, Lear was too heavy-handed and made a mess of that show.

Thanks for info on Norms' father. Now I will never buy this show and is on my list of shows I wished I never saw.

[TVFactFan]

Yes because he brought back Esther Rolle in season 6 when she was no longer needed

[TMC]

Originally Posted by king of comedy

Thanks for info on Norms' father. Now I will never buy this show and is on my list of shows I wished I never saw.

Please note, that I don't have concrete evidence right in front of me regarding what Norman Lear's father was really like. I'm purely basing this on hearsay from what I've read on other forums online.

[TMC]

Originally Posted by Yong Fang

I don't know, the show did last a long time. Jimmie Walker became the star of the show, and Esther Rolle and John Amos were simply jealous and didn't like it. JJ wasn't a bad role model actually. He was a bit of a buffoon....because he played a teenage kid! JJ was also a talented artist, loved his family, loved his siblings and was respectful.

Not to stray into a racial thing, but Willona was a lot more ghetto and shuck and jive. Again, and I should not have to apologize, but these shows were written by Jews who did not have any experience living in inner city ghettos and did have a racial bias. Saul Turtletaub and Bud Yorkin were the head writers for Sanford and Son, I mean, HELLO!

And ironically, despite Esther Rolle's claims that by the fourth season, JJ was for the most part, still immature, he had actually grown up a lot in the fourth season. He refused to let Thelma drop out of school, got a job to support his family and was very serious after James' funeral, even talking seriously to Michael about Michael joining a gang, as he himself has been unwillingly forced to join a gang.

[Janice Johnson]

Yeah, JJ did grow up a lot in the latter seasons and his comedy became snarky and sarcastic rather than how over the top gis comedy was in the first seasons.

[TMC]

Originally Posted by Will Dockery

The J.J. character just clicked with the young folks of that era, much like Fonzie... the producers of the show understandably wanted to run with that popularity.

This is what Eric Monte had to say:

You then wrote 'Good Times,' correct?

I pitched 'Good Times' in 1971; it didn't go on the air until 1974. In those three years we had about 20 meetings. The one note I got in every meeting was, "Get rid of the father, a strong black man in a sitcom won't work." All the white writers on the show wanted to do stereotypes and I refused, so we'd argue and fight. They would ignore what I suggested and take all that "Yassuh Boss" stuff to the cast, and John Amos and Esther Rolle would have a fit. Then they'd give them what I wrote and the cast would like it, shoot it and it would go on the air. Originally I pictured J.J. as a street-smart hustler who drove his honest, hard-working parents crazy. His character became a buffoon.

Meanwhile, this is what Norman Lear, himself had to say:

Jimmie Walker, as the older son, J.J., was a big problem to them. It started early in the series when he ad-libbed, "Dy-no-mite!" about something that pleased him. It was funny, the audience howled, and he repeated it to the same reaction. A sure laugh, at the next reading the cast found it in the script. John winced, and it was clear trouble was brewing.

Let me say that I loved J.J. the character and Jimmie the actor. In reality, they were not that far apart. The actor seemed to have shrugged off what was known as "the black man's burden." I believed that was the way he chose to deal with it. Physically, he could have been a cartoonist's vision of Ichabod Crane, a funnyman to the eye, to which he deliberately added the ear. The man, the boy, was just plain funny. "Dy-no-mite!" became a running joke, and the character of J.J., John and Esther began to believe, was running away with the show.

[glickmam]

Originally Posted by Yong Fang

I don't know, the show did last a long time. Jimmie Walker became the star of the show, and Esther Rolle and John Amos were simply jealous and didn't like it. JJ wasn't a bad role model actually. He was a bit of a buffoon....because he played a teenage kid! JJ was also a talented artist, loved his family, loved his siblings and was respectful.

Not to stray into a racial thing, but Willona was a lot more ghetto and shuck and jive. Again, and I should not have to apologize, but these shows were written by Jews who did not have any experience living in inner city ghettos and did have a racial bias. Saul Turtletaub and Bud Yorkin were the head writers for Sanford and Son, I mean, HELLO!

Yong Fang, by saying the show did last a long time, you are conflating quality with quantity. Episode count and longevity can't always be a determining factor in a program's success. If that happened, we might as well say that Happy Days never did jump the shark when Fonzie, well, "jumped the shark." That being said, I do blame Norman Lear and all the other producers for the downfall of Good Times by refusing to listen to Amos and Rolle's advice on J.J. and having the gall to fire Amos when he complained to the press. I swear, if I was Robert Wood, president of CBS at the time, I would have responded by having every one of Lear's programs yanked off of the CBS schedule and would have had both him and every one of his producers be blacklisted in the entertainment industry.

[TVFactFan]

The show lasted 5 years, that's a long time?

[TMC]

Does anyone know the real story behind Good Times? Esther Rolle refused to play the role as a single mom. She demanded to have a husband on the show. She was ready to quit until they honored her demands. James Evans was no fool, either. Norman Lear admitted that he had to change the lines "several times" and often had disagreements with him because he didn't like how Lear used certain stereotypical expressions in the script. Most of the cast members had tension with Jimmie Walker because he was the only one that went along with the nonsense that the white writers pitched. He never argued with them. Also - the best part - the Black Panthers were so upset with the show that they stormed Lear's office and threatened him. I can't recall but either they demanded he change the characters on the show or they told him to cancel it. How did he respond?

[DJM77]

Originally Posted by TMC

Also - the best part - the Black Panthers were so upset with the show that they stormed Lear's office and threatened him. I can't recall but either they demanded he change the characters on the show or they told him to cancel it. How did he respond?

That's what made him give George and Louise Jefferson their own series.

[TMC]

Originally Posted by DJM77

That's what made him give George and Louise Jefferson their own series.

When Isabel Sanford said she didn't want to leave All In The Family, because she wasn't sure The Jeffersons would be successful, he told her, "I'll just hire another actress to play Louise and she'll do the spin-off."

He told John Amos, "I got good news and bad news," The good news is Good Times has been renewed. The bad news is you won't be back for it.

Only Carroll O'Connor beat him when he went on strike and he made plans to kill off Archie, CBS said "Get real if it's a choice between you and O'Connor, you're the one going." And Archie came back after a four part serial arc.

[hatwink]

In some ways, yes, but I think him and Amos' relationship would have deteriorated to the point of violence.