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Iloveviv · 02-04-2004, 02:37 PM

I havent seen the LUCY SHOW since Nick at Nite stopped running it in the 90's (but I am very thankful for the four years they did, because I hadn't seen these shows in over 20 years).

But there is one episode that I really, really pay attention to because it is loaded with so much symbolism.

When Lucille Ball returned to television after a 2 year break she DEMANDED that Vivian Vance play her best friend. She was not willing to go back on TV without her.

While Vivian was subservient to Lucille on I LOVE LUCY, wearing shabby clothes, being made to appear 20 years older, 20 pounds overweight, and making a small salary in comparison to Lucy and Desi's millions...Vivian put her foot down.

To return to Hollywood from her Connecticut home and her new marriage (she would commute for three years until she was finally worn out)... Vivian INSISTED on:

1. Her character's name being changed to Vivian from Ethel.

2. A Better Wardrobe

3. Contemporary Hairstyles

4. An Outrageous Salary (it is reported Vivian made anywhere from $160,000 to 240,000 a year in the LUCY SHOW years..and we are taking 40 years ago when that was a lot of money ....which was more than her I LOVE LUCY years all put together).

5. Playing Lucy's contemporary, instead of playing a woman a generation older.

6. Getting "co-star" billing.. instead of "with Vivian Vance and William Frawley."

All of that to say this....in the episode LUCY AND VIV PUT UP A TV ANTENNAE....while they are both on the roof, Lucille tells Viv..."Back Up"

Mrs.Bagley refuses.

Viv says : "YOU BACK UP! I will not turn around. If you want me to help you, YOU WILL BACK UP!"

Unlike Lucy Ricardo, who usually told Ethel what to do....Lucy Charmichael turns around and goes the other way.

I can't help but think that particular episode was very symbolic of the subtle change in Lucy and Viv's professional relationship on the new series.

At the very end, a very weary Vivian tells Lucy, "Promise me if this thing blows down again you won't let anybody help you put this back up again but me."

After a weary Viv retired in 1965, Lucille never did find another sidekick. (Mary Jane Kroft had a minor part, but her character was not developed at all in depth).

When asked after Viv's retirement about a new female co-star, Lucille Ball said "Nobody can replace Vivian Vance."

SPLAIN · 02-04-2004, 02:53 PM

I don't know about that salary though, because Lucy herself wasn't making that much back then, it's usually mentionned in the books that she got a salary for doing the show and another for running the studio and it was rather low considering who she was.

Iloveviv · 02-04-2004, 05:35 PM

I read that Lucy made $16,000 an episode for the first few years of THE LUCY SHOW and Vivian made $8000 an episode...but her salary was stretched out over time, so as not to have such a high tax bracket.

There were 30 episodes the first season, 28 episodes the second season, 26 episodes in the third season (Viv was in 20 of them).

I either read that in the book DESILU or THE OTHER SIDE OF ETHEL MERTZ.

I also read Viv got bonuses, too.

I don't know if Viv got any residuals from the series going into rerun.

SPLAIN · 02-05-2004, 10:18 AM

I think everybody involved gets residuals for a while. They asked the writers on a Joan Rivers retrospective on the 40th anniversary of the show, and they said they no longer got a penny from ILL but did get something still from The Lucy show. And Keith Thibodeau said it was small but he still got also. You might be right about Viv, i never read the books on HER. I know that when she threatened to leave, Lucy's people told her she couldn't keep her because she would end up making more than HER. For people who think they made nothing, let's remember that money was worth more in those days and Lucy used to get that bonus under the table every year of 600 thousand just to keep her at CBS, hope Viv got a little something extra also.

bweir · 02-05-2004, 11:52 AM

You never read the two books on Viv?!

What's your 'scuse?

SPLAIN · 02-05-2004, 02:00 PM

They were never readily available, the last time i saw them was when i was going to get them from the Museum, then they had that upheaval there, but i would pay anything to get them. You know Brock, yesterday i went home and was taping a Lucy tape for a fan and Star was showing the Viv Mysteries and Scandals, it was half over, but i should still have taped the half that i was in time for.

SPLAIN · 02-05-2004, 02:02 PM

As much as i know about Lucy, i didn't even know Viv had been married FOUR times, that one was a shock, so i'd love to find out more about her. But when i grew up, you never heard anything about the trio, just Lucy!

MagsLovesLucy · 02-05-2004, 08:36 PM

The only Vivian book I have is The Other Side of Ethel Mertz, and it's absolutely wonderful!! I learned so much about Viv from reading it.

SPLAIN · 02-06-2004, 10:19 AM

Weren't you SHOCKED Maggie when you read she had been married FOUR times? And yesterday while making a tape for a Lucy fan, i came across that Sullivan tribute where Ed talks to Bill and Viv and he congratulates HER on her Emmy, and Bill says something sweet and fakes his dismay. NOW THAT'S AN ACTOR! Because it is said that when she got it, he made some comment about the whole Emmy thing being FIXED! LOL!

MagsLovesLucy · 02-06-2004, 11:37 PM

I was really surprised to read that Viv had been married 4 times, and was actually sort of like the "home wrecker" when she was "doing things" with Phil Ober.

I remember reading Bill's comment when Viv won the Emmy, LOL. I've also read that when Viv found out Bill died, she said something along the lines of, "Good, let's celebrate!"

SPLAIN · 02-09-2004, 11:52 AM

I know, knowing all that nowadays distracts from their performances, don't you think? That man was a genius, he did what? 100 films? Look at the scene in The Barbershop quartet, when he hears Ricky doing an Irish accent, the look in his eyes is priceless.

Larry Surrell · 02-21-2004, 11:28 PM

I remember seeing Bill Frawley do a cameo appearance in a Lucy Show. It was something about Lucy winning or buying a horse. Lucy and Viv were at the stables looking for it. She tapped a man on the back to ask if he knew where her horse was. He turned around and it was William Frawley. I don't remember his lines, but I do remember that he played his old grumpy Fred Mertz type character, and after he left Viv said something like "Imagine being married to HIM" in a disgusted tone. It was a classic moment.

It's been many years since I've seen that episode so the memory of it may not be completely accurate, but I remember the situation vividly.

SPLAIN · 02-23-2004, 10:45 AM

Yeah, that's the problem, most people haven't seen that one in decades or at least many years. You are off a little. Viv was not in that episode, it was after she had left the series, probably why Bill was on there. It was Ann Sothern playing the Countess Framboise who was with Lucy, and Lucy's line was something like HE REMINDS ME OF SOMEONE I USED TO KNOW. Very short scene for Bill who was very ill and died shortly afterwards, his face was puffy but it was the old Fred Mertz delivery and facial expression all right.

Larry Surrell · 02-23-2004, 08:16 PM

Thanks for the correction, Splain. Funny how the mind distorts old memories!

pilotguy · 02-24-2004, 08:23 AM

Many people believe that the "Lucy Carmichael - Vivian Bagley" relationship of "The Lucy Show" was merely an extension of the "Lucy Ricardo - Ethel Mertz" relationship of "I Love Lucy" with only the names and marriage statuses changed, but nothing could be further from the truth!

Most of the time Ethel Mertz went along with Lucy Ricardo's schemes, even when she knew that they weren't the right thing to do. Ethel was really subservient to Lucy, even though Ethel was technically in a position of greater power (being Lucy's landlord).

Vivian Bagley, while also being sucked into schemes and home improvement projects with Lucy, tended to have more "bite" and backbone. Viv stood up to Lucy a LOT more than Ethel did, and there was also a certain sexiness (or at least attractiveness) to Viv.
Many times Lucy Carmichael and Viv Bagley actually competed for the same boyfriend (and Viv would give Lucy a real run for her money)....Ethel Mertz was never considered a "sexual equal" to Lucy Ricardo.

It's interested to read in Vivian's biography how Viv actually liked playing Vivian Bagley a LOT more than she liked playing Ethel Mertz...frankly, I think that she liked the character of feisty, attractive Viv much more than frumpy (and rather pathetic) Ethel.

02-04-2004, 02:37 PM	#1
Iloveviv Member Occasional Poster Join Date: Feb 03, 2004 Posts: 12	Art Imitates Life I havent seen the LUCY SHOW since Nick at Nite stopped running it in the 90's (but I am very thankful for the four years they did, because I hadn't seen these shows in over 20 years). But there is one episode that I really, really pay attention to because it is loaded with so much symbolism. When Lucille Ball returned to television after a 2 year break she DEMANDED that Vivian Vance play her best friend. She was not willing to go back on TV without her. While Vivian was subservient to Lucille on I LOVE LUCY, wearing shabby clothes, being made to appear 20 years older, 20 pounds overweight, and making a small salary in comparison to Lucy and Desi's millions...Vivian put her foot down. To return to Hollywood from her Connecticut home and her new marriage (she would commute for three years until she was finally worn out)... Vivian INSISTED on: 1. Her character's name being changed to Vivian from Ethel. 2. A Better Wardrobe 3. Contemporary Hairstyles 4. An Outrageous Salary (it is reported Vivian made anywhere from $160,000 to 240,000 a year in the LUCY SHOW years..and we are taking 40 years ago when that was a lot of money ....which was more than her I LOVE LUCY years all put together). 5. Playing Lucy's contemporary, instead of playing a woman a generation older. 6. Getting "co-star" billing.. instead of "with Vivian Vance and William Frawley." All of that to say this....in the episode LUCY AND VIV PUT UP A TV ANTENNAE....while they are both on the roof, Lucille tells Viv..."Back Up" Mrs.Bagley refuses. Viv says : "YOU BACK UP! I will not turn around. If you want me to help you, YOU WILL BACK UP!" Unlike Lucy Ricardo, who usually told Ethel what to do....Lucy Charmichael turns around and goes the other way. I can't help but think that particular episode was very symbolic of the subtle change in Lucy and Viv's professional relationship on the new series. At the very end, a very weary Vivian tells Lucy, "Promise me if this thing blows down again you won't let anybody help you put this back up again but me." After a weary Viv retired in 1965, Lucille never did find another sidekick. (Mary Jane Kroft had a minor part, but her character was not developed at all in depth). When asked after Viv's retirement about a new female co-star, Lucille Ball said "Nobody can replace Vivian Vance."

02-04-2004, 05:35 PM	#3
Iloveviv Member Occasional Poster Join Date: Feb 03, 2004 Posts: 12	Salary I read that Lucy made $16,000 an episode for the first few years of THE LUCY SHOW and Vivian made $8000 an episode...but her salary was stretched out over time, so as not to have such a high tax bracket. There were 30 episodes the first season, 28 episodes the second season, 26 episodes in the third season (Viv was in 20 of them). I either read that in the book DESILU or THE OTHER SIDE OF ETHEL MERTZ. I also read Viv got bonuses, too. I don't know if Viv got any residuals from the series going into rerun.

02-05-2004, 11:52 AM	#5
bweir Member Frequent Poster Join Date: Aug 23, 2001 Posts: 293	You never read the two books on Viv?! What's your 'scuse?
	__________________ Lucy: Oh Mr. Mooney! You scared me half out of my wits! Mooney: Oh never give me an opening like that.

02-04-2004, 02:53 PM	#2
SPLAIN I Love Lucy Forum 4000 Club Member Join Date: Mar 04, 2002 Location: MONTREAL, CANADA Posts: 4,563	I don't know about that salary though, because Lucy herself wasn't making that much back then, it's usually mentionned in the books that she got a salary for doing the show and another for running the studio and it was rather low considering who she was.

02-05-2004, 10:18 AM	#4
SPLAIN I Love Lucy Forum 4000 Club Member Join Date: Mar 04, 2002 Location: MONTREAL, CANADA Posts: 4,563	I think everybody involved gets residuals for a while. They asked the writers on a Joan Rivers retrospective on the 40th anniversary of the show, and they said they no longer got a penny from ILL but did get something still from The Lucy show. And Keith Thibodeau said it was small but he still got also. You might be right about Viv, i never read the books on HER. I know that when she threatened to leave, Lucy's people told her she couldn't keep her because she would end up making more than HER. For people who think they made nothing, let's remember that money was worth more in those days and Lucy used to get that bonus under the table every year of 600 thousand just to keep her at CBS, hope Viv got a little something extra also.

02-05-2004, 02:00 PM	#6
SPLAIN I Love Lucy Forum 4000 Club Member Join Date: Mar 04, 2002 Location: MONTREAL, CANADA Posts: 4,563	They were never readily available, the last time i saw them was when i was going to get them from the Museum, then they had that upheaval there, but i would pay anything to get them. You know Brock, yesterday i went home and was taping a Lucy tape for a fan and Star was showing the Viv Mysteries and Scandals, it was half over, but i should still have taped the half that i was in time for.

02-05-2004, 02:02 PM	#7
SPLAIN I Love Lucy Forum 4000 Club Member Join Date: Mar 04, 2002 Location: MONTREAL, CANADA Posts: 4,563	As much as i know about Lucy, i didn't even know Viv had been married FOUR times, that one was a shock, so i'd love to find out more about her. But when i grew up, you never heard anything about the trio, just Lucy!

02-05-2004, 08:36 PM	#8
MagsLovesLucy For being a friend.. Frequent Poster Join Date: Aug 13, 2003 Posts: 307	The only Vivian book I have is The Other Side of Ethel Mertz, and it's absolutely wonderful!! I learned so much about Viv from reading it.

02-06-2004, 10:19 AM	#9
SPLAIN I Love Lucy Forum 4000 Club Member Join Date: Mar 04, 2002 Location: MONTREAL, CANADA Posts: 4,563	Weren't you SHOCKED Maggie when you read she had been married FOUR times? And yesterday while making a tape for a Lucy fan, i came across that Sullivan tribute where Ed talks to Bill and Viv and he congratulates HER on her Emmy, and Bill says something sweet and fakes his dismay. NOW THAT'S AN ACTOR! Because it is said that when she got it, he made some comment about the whole Emmy thing being FIXED! LOL!

02-06-2004, 11:37 PM	#10
MagsLovesLucy For being a friend.. Frequent Poster Join Date: Aug 13, 2003 Posts: 307	I was really surprised to read that Viv had been married 4 times, and was actually sort of like the "home wrecker" when she was "doing things" with Phil Ober. I remember reading Bill's comment when Viv won the Emmy, LOL. I've also read that when Viv found out Bill died, she said something along the lines of, "Good, let's celebrate!"

02-09-2004, 11:52 AM	#11
SPLAIN I Love Lucy Forum 4000 Club Member Join Date: Mar 04, 2002 Location: MONTREAL, CANADA Posts: 4,563	I know, knowing all that nowadays distracts from their performances, don't you think? That man was a genius, he did what? 100 films? Look at the scene in The Barbershop quartet, when he hears Ricky doing an Irish accent, the look in his eyes is priceless.

02-21-2004, 11:28 PM	#12
Larry Surrell Ed M. 1918-2006 RIP Forum Regular Join Date: Dec 27, 2003 Location: Thousand Oaks, CA Posts: 702	I remember seeing Bill Frawley do a cameo appearance in a Lucy Show. It was something about Lucy winning or buying a horse. Lucy and Viv were at the stables looking for it. She tapped a man on the back to ask if he knew where her horse was. He turned around and it was William Frawley. I don't remember his lines, but I do remember that he played his old grumpy Fred Mertz type character, and after he left Viv said something like "Imagine being married to HIM" in a disgusted tone. It was a classic moment. It's been many years since I've seen that episode so the memory of it may not be completely accurate, but I remember the situation vividly.

02-23-2004, 10:45 AM	#13
SPLAIN I Love Lucy Forum 4000 Club Member Join Date: Mar 04, 2002 Location: MONTREAL, CANADA Posts: 4,563	Yeah, that's the problem, most people haven't seen that one in decades or at least many years. You are off a little. Viv was not in that episode, it was after she had left the series, probably why Bill was on there. It was Ann Sothern playing the Countess Framboise who was with Lucy, and Lucy's line was something like HE REMINDS ME OF SOMEONE I USED TO KNOW. Very short scene for Bill who was very ill and died shortly afterwards, his face was puffy but it was the old Fred Mertz delivery and facial expression all right.

02-23-2004, 08:16 PM	#14
Larry Surrell Ed M. 1918-2006 RIP Forum Regular Join Date: Dec 27, 2003 Location: Thousand Oaks, CA Posts: 702	Thanks for the correction, Splain. Funny how the mind distorts old memories!

02-24-2004, 08:23 AM	#15
pilotguy Member Senior Member Join Date: Apr 09, 2003 Posts: 1,305	Many people believe that the "Lucy Carmichael - Vivian Bagley" relationship of "The Lucy Show" was merely an extension of the "Lucy Ricardo - Ethel Mertz" relationship of "I Love Lucy" with only the names and marriage statuses changed, but nothing could be further from the truth! Most of the time Ethel Mertz went along with Lucy Ricardo's schemes, even when she knew that they weren't the right thing to do. Ethel was really subservient to Lucy, even though Ethel was technically in a position of greater power (being Lucy's landlord). Vivian Bagley, while also being sucked into schemes and home improvement projects with Lucy, tended to have more "bite" and backbone. Viv stood up to Lucy a LOT more than Ethel did, and there was also a certain sexiness (or at least attractiveness) to Viv. Many times Lucy Carmichael and Viv Bagley actually competed for the same boyfriend (and Viv would give Lucy a real run for her money)....Ethel Mertz was never considered a "sexual equal" to Lucy Ricardo. It's interested to read in Vivian's biography how Viv actually liked playing Vivian Bagley a LOT more than she liked playing Ethel Mertz...frankly, I think that she liked the character of feisty, attractive Viv much more than frumpy (and rather pathetic) Ethel.