Super sophisticated? - Sitcoms Online Message Boards

TomServo99 · 12-21-2003, 03:53 PM

Has anyone noticed that in Cheers, Frasier was kind of pretentious sometimes, mostly when around Diane, but otherwise he would have beers and watch the football games, while still being really smart? Ever since season 3 in Frasier the writers have kind of changed him into a complete snob. He and Niles are almost the same.

Why do this? I liked it better in Cheers and seasons 1 and 2 (but even then he was still more pretentious) where he was kind of a smarty pants, but still could laugh at Niles getting into a panic about his coffee. Maybe it was because they wanted to really differenciate Martin and his boys?

(By the way, I still love Frasier, I'm just wondering why this might have happened.)

barwars · 12-21-2003, 07:10 PM

One word.... the Bar.
Without the bar Frasier is his normal self, snobby and pretentious.... but whenever he's in the bar.... or with someone from the bar.... he's "Cheers" Frasier.

And I think that he may have changed because the people behind Frasier wanted him to be seperate from his Cheers version. But if you watch the episode "Cheerful Goodbyes", Frasier is back to his "Cheers" version while around the barflys.

DianeChambers87 · 12-21-2003, 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by barwars88
One word.... the Bar.
Without the bar Frasier is his normal self, snobby and pretentious.... but whenever he's in the bar.... or with someone from the bar.... he's "Cheers" Frasier.

And I think that he may have changed because the people behind Frasier wanted him to be seperate from his Cheers version. But if you watch the episode "Cheerful Goodbyes", Frasier is back to his "Cheers" version while around the barflys.

Tim, you took the words right out of my mouth!

Valma · 12-22-2003, 02:56 AM

Well, I don't think Niles and Frasier are *that* much alike - even now. Sure they are psychiatrists, like opera and the theatre, are well read and enjoy expensive wine and food - but those are just surface things. Their personalities are polar opposites - Frasier is an extrovert and Niles is definitely an introvert - and this colours *everything* about how they deal with life – all their actions and reactions. That is a *very* big difference between them and that factor hasn’t changed one iota since the beginning of the show and is still in evidence today.

Frasier is bombastic, domineering and pushy. He always is interfering in the affairs of others and has an extremely high opinion of himself. Frasier has always wanted to be part of a group (whether it was the gang at Cheers, or his high school clubs).

Niles is much more shy, lacks confidence around women, has low self-esteem (until he finally got together with Daphne) and was far less of a "joiner" than Frasier when they were children. He controls his temper much more than Frasier does.

Yes, originally, the creators purposely directed Pierce to play Niles as an “extreme” version of Frasier (as mentioned in the Frasier companion book), like someone who had never had the influence of the people back Boston thrust upon him, because they wanted Frasier to be the central character of the story and be able to carry the "madness" of the plots going on around him.

The creators wanted them to have a *similar* backgrounds to serve as foils for the tension between Martin and his sons, but because of their personality differences they have always (and always will IMO) handled life very differently, (Frasier had to be able to roll his eyes at Niles' behaviour concerning Maris, etc.).

Frasier hasn’t got more like Niles during the years - he still is *much* more relaxed about a lot of things than Niles is. Just one small example of how different they are - Frasier has always dressed more casually than Niles - often wearing jeans at home, sweatshirts, or even a T-shirt or two on occasion. Niles' big concession to casual dress in 11 years (and this only after he and Daphne were a couple) has been wearing cashmere sweaters with three buttons at the collar (except for the black leather outfit he wore when he dated Kit and that one time that he wore the T-shirt with Daphne's picture on the front! - both aberrations really). I really doubt that Niles Crane will *ever* wear a pair of jeans!

Frasier really hasn’t change that much since he was exposed to the “barflys” at Cheers (to me anyway). Niles has changed since he divorced Maris and got together with Daphne – he now has found true love and has a calmer attitude about life. But deep inside him there is a very neurotic person lurking …

Brian Damage · 12-22-2003, 11:52 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DianeChambers87
Tim, you took the words right out of my mouth!

Ditto

Steve M. · 12-24-2003, 12:09 PM

Bill Maher said something pretty provocative on his HBO standup special this past summer. He complained that virtually every domestic sitcom on the air involves a smart, erudite, attractive woman with a loutish, oafish neanderthal of a husband who should be glad he he found her. The only educated, refined male sitcom characters, Maher bitched, were Frasier and Niles - "and they're both gayer than Little Richard's underpants!"

That's a direct quote from Maher, you must understand.

Valma · 12-25-2003, 02:28 PM

Maher ought to get out more and meet more people. There *are* plenty of hetro men out there that aren't neanderthals. They are well-read, erudite and sophisticated, enjoy fine wines, art and theatre just like Frasier and Niles. Those things don't make a man "gay" - as DHP said once "I always thought having sex with other men is the thing that defines a man as gay and Frasier and Niles definitely aren't inclined in that direction." For Maher to pigeon-hole Frasier and Niles as "gay" because they are refined, cultured fellows shows the dangers of stereo-typing people.

12-21-2003, 03:53 PM	#1
TomServo99 Portly Red Robot Occasional Poster Join Date: Apr 12, 2003 Posts: 42	Super sophisticated? Has anyone noticed that in Cheers, Frasier was kind of pretentious sometimes, mostly when around Diane, but otherwise he would have beers and watch the football games, while still being really smart? Ever since season 3 in Frasier the writers have kind of changed him into a complete snob. He and Niles are almost the same. Why do this? I liked it better in Cheers and seasons 1 and 2 (but even then he was still more pretentious) where he was kind of a smarty pants, but still could laugh at Niles getting into a panic about his coffee. Maybe it was because they wanted to really differenciate Martin and his boys? (By the way, I still love Frasier, I'm just wondering why this might have happened.)
	__________________ http://mst3000.virtualave.net/pictures/802/cmt.jpg "All that ringing. Now we know what the world sounds like to Pete Townsend." -Tom Servo.

12-24-2003, 12:09 PM	#6
Steve M. Back on the road to reality Forum Superstar Join Date: Nov 07, 2003 Location: New Jersey Posts: 33,307	Bill Maher said something pretty provocative on his HBO standup special this past summer. He complained that virtually every domestic sitcom on the air involves a smart, erudite, attractive woman with a loutish, oafish neanderthal of a husband who should be glad he he found her. The only educated, refined male sitcom characters, Maher bitched, were Frasier and Niles - "and they're both gayer than Little Richard's underpants!" That's a direct quote from Maher, you must understand.
	__________________ I don't really get out a lot. When I do go out, I couldn't be happier. I love being in a nice milieu. I'm as happy as a clam. Just as long as I'm not in some club playing hip-hop. You hear that sort of thing in a lot of places. That's not my milieu. Rock and roll is good-time music. I love rock. So did my parents. Last edited by Steve M.; 12-25-2003 at 10:32 PM.

12-21-2003, 07:10 PM	#2
barwars .. Forum Star Join Date: May 04, 2002 Posts: 13,273	One word.... the Bar. Without the bar Frasier is his normal self, snobby and pretentious.... but whenever he's in the bar.... or with someone from the bar.... he's "Cheers" Frasier. And I think that he may have changed because the people behind Frasier wanted him to be seperate from his Cheers version. But if you watch the episode "Cheerful Goodbyes", Frasier is back to his "Cheers" version while around the barflys.

12-22-2003, 02:56 AM	#4
Valma Member Occasional Poster Join Date: Nov 09, 2002 Posts: 95	Well, I don't think Niles and Frasier are that much alike - even now. Sure they are psychiatrists, like opera and the theatre, are well read and enjoy expensive wine and food - but those are just surface things. Their personalities are polar opposites - Frasier is an extrovert and Niles is definitely an introvert - and this colours everything about how they deal with life – all their actions and reactions. That is a very big difference between them and that factor hasn’t changed one iota since the beginning of the show and is still in evidence today. Frasier is bombastic, domineering and pushy. He always is interfering in the affairs of others and has an extremely high opinion of himself. Frasier has always wanted to be part of a group (whether it was the gang at Cheers, or his high school clubs). Niles is much more shy, lacks confidence around women, has low self-esteem (until he finally got together with Daphne) and was far less of a "joiner" than Frasier when they were children. He controls his temper much more than Frasier does. Yes, originally, the creators purposely directed Pierce to play Niles as an “extreme” version of Frasier (as mentioned in the Frasier companion book), like someone who had never had the influence of the people back Boston thrust upon him, because they wanted Frasier to be the central character of the story and be able to carry the "madness" of the plots going on around him. The creators wanted them to have a similar backgrounds to serve as foils for the tension between Martin and his sons, but because of their personality differences they have always (and always will IMO) handled life very differently, (Frasier had to be able to roll his eyes at Niles' behaviour concerning Maris, etc.). Frasier hasn’t got more like Niles during the years - he still is much more relaxed about a lot of things than Niles is. Just one small example of how different they are - Frasier has always dressed more casually than Niles - often wearing jeans at home, sweatshirts, or even a T-shirt or two on occasion. Niles' big concession to casual dress in 11 years (and this only after he and Daphne were a couple) has been wearing cashmere sweaters with three buttons at the collar (except for the black leather outfit he wore when he dated Kit and that one time that he wore the T-shirt with Daphne's picture on the front! - both aberrations really). I really doubt that Niles Crane will ever wear a pair of jeans! Frasier really hasn’t change that much since he was exposed to the “barflys” at Cheers (to me anyway). Niles has changed since he divorced Maris and got together with Daphne – he now has found true love and has a calmer attitude about life. But deep inside him there is a very neurotic person lurking …

12-25-2003, 02:28 PM	#7
Valma Member Occasional Poster Join Date: Nov 09, 2002 Posts: 95	Maher ought to get out more and meet more people. There are plenty of hetro men out there that aren't neanderthals. They are well-read, erudite and sophisticated, enjoy fine wines, art and theatre just like Frasier and Niles. Those things don't make a man "gay" - as DHP said once "I always thought having sex with other men is the thing that defines a man as gay and Frasier and Niles definitely aren't inclined in that direction." For Maher to pigeon-hole Frasier and Niles as "gay" because they are refined, cultured fellows shows the dangers of stereo-typing people.