William and Viv

[Baldeagle00]

Hey ive read in several articles, the tv couple did not get along in real life and i am wondering if anyone knows why? i dont think anyone else could make better mertz's than them 2.

[dawsongirl]

Viv had a real hard time seeing herself married to a man who was that much older than her and vocally said so. Bill overheard and took it as an insult. The two hated each other from then on. But it hardly translated to the screen, except for scenes where Ethel was supposed to kiss Fred.

I think that's proof that they were good at what they did because they WERE the Mertzes.

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Get your kicks on Route 66!

Congratulations to the 2001 Winston Cup Champion- Jeff Gordon!

[This message has been edited by dawsongirl (edited 11-25-2001).]

[Liza]

I heard that, I also heard that when producers offered them a spinoff called "The Mertzes" they both said no. They really didn't like each other. Kinda sad to see really, but they're Fred and Ethel anyway.

BTW, I remember hearing that Lucy wanted Gail Gordan to play Fred Merz and someone else for Ethel. Anyone know what I'm talking about?

[TV Guy]

Yeah, Lucy wanted Gale as Fred. A lot of sources say that he was too busy doing "Our Miss Brooks", but he was only doing the radio version of that show (the TV version started a year after ILL). Supposedly, the real reason was that Gale, a well-established actor, was too expensive for ILL.

Lucy wanted Bea Benederet to play Ethel (Gale and Bea had played Lucy's neighbors on the radio show "My Favorite Husband"). But Bea was already in a TV series, as the neighbor on "Burns and Allen". She later went on to play Pearl on "The Beverly Hillbillies" and Kate on "Petticoat Junction", and was the original voice of Betty on "The Flintstones".

One of the books I read said that Bill Frawley was very much interested in doing a "Fred and Ethel" spinoff. Desilu was willing to pay him and Viv a lot of money to just do a pilot. But Viv was not willing, because she couldn't stand the thought of having to work with him without Lucy and Desi. When Bill found out, it made him dislike Vivian even more than he already did.

[Baldeagle00]

did William and Vivian like Desi and lucy?

[dawsongirl]

Bill loved Lucy. At first, Viv wasn't wild on Lucy because she was demanding or something, but I think they grew to be great friends. Viv liked Desi, but I'm not real sure about Desi and Bill.

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Get your kicks on Route 66!

Congratulations to the 2001 Winston Cup Champion- Jeff Gordon!

[PPatters]

I think I've heard that Viv didn't originally have the best of feelings towards Lucy because Viv was portrayed as this much older woman while, in fact, if I do remember correctly, Lucy was actually older than Viv. The description of Ethel Mertz was something like "old and frumpy" and Viv didn't like that description that much.

[dawsongirl]

It's been debated several times, but I think someone proved that Viv was actually born in 1909, Lucy in 1911, but for many years, people thoght Viv was born in 1912.

[NCVARick]

Originally posted by dawsongirl:
It's been debated several times, but I think someone proved that Viv was actually born in 1909, Lucy in 1911, but for many years, people thoght Viv was born in 1912.

I went to the Library of Congress about four or five years ago and got ahold of the January 1910 census records for Kansas. Vivian was listed there (as an infant) along with the rest of her family. She couldn't have possibly been included in those records if she weren't going to exist for another 2 and 1/2 years. She was definitely born in 1909.

[NCVARick]

Originally posted by NCVARick:
I went to the Library of Congress about four or five years ago and got ahold of the January 1910 census records for Kansas. Vivian was listed there (as an infant) along with the rest of her family. She couldn't have possibly been included in those records if she weren't going to exist for another 2 and 1/2 years. She was definitely born in 1909.

Excuse me, I meant the National Archives, not the Library of Congress.

[PPatters]

I must have been mistaken then. (Though, I swear I heard that somewhere, I guess they must have also been mistaken, 'tis alright, though.)

[DarleneIllyria]

No PPatters, You were right. I read this in a Lucy book about the relationship between Lucy and Viv.

Desi saw Viv at a nightclub or something performing. He came to the conclusion that Viv would make a great Ethel Mertz. Apparently, Lucy didn't think so. Lucy wanted the Ethel character to be dumpy looking, and running around with rollers in her hair. I think Lucy wanted Viv to gain a few pounds to make her look more like a land lady, instead of a beauty queen or something.

Also, I read a quote that Viv said about Lucy that "She would learn to love that bitch, if it was the last thing she did"


It did turn into a friendship though. Lucy was devastated when Viv died. They grew to love and treasure their friendship.

That happens sometimes though, a person could be mortal enemies with someone, but have a change of heart and grow to be friends for the rest of their life.

Just my 2 cents

Edited to say: I just reread over your post PPatters, and I do think Lucy was the older one. I'm not entirely sure, but I think Lucy was older....

Edited again: Okay curiousity got the better of me, so I went to Imdb. Here are all the dob's of the 4 main actors.

Desi Arnaz: 2 March 1917
Lucille Ball:6 August 1911
Vivian Vance: 26 July 1909
William Frawley: 26 February 1887

Well, I guess I was wrong. If the information is correct, then Viv was older.

[This message has been edited by Jenny (edited 11-28-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Jenny (edited 11-28-2001).]

[PPatters]

Someone mentioned, though, that it was believed that Vivian Vance was born in 1912, does anyone remember why everyone would think this?

[NCVARick]

Originally posted by PPatters:
Someone mentioned, though, that it was believed that Vivian Vance was born in 1912, does anyone remember why everyone would think this?

People believe this because of misinformation originally published in Bart Andrews' 1976 book, "Lucy, Ricky, Fred & Ethel: The Story of 'I Love Lucy'" (the G-rated predecessor to his R-rated "The 'I Love Lucy' Book). As this was the only book written at the time about the show, every subsequent television writer considered it the definitive source of information on the show and used it as a reference. It was considered gospel, in spite of a number of now disproven claims (such as a claim that Lucie Arnaz appeared in the final episode of the show; Desi Jr. appeared, but she didn't; Lucie Arnaz herself emphatically denies ever appearing on that episode, and the only girl appearing in that scene that even vaguely resembles her is far too tall for a then five year old).

A similar thing happened with regard to a book published in the 1970s called "Total Television" which stated that Lucy Carmichael (on "The Lucy Show") lived in Danfield, Connecticut (Danfield was in New York), and worked for Mr. Mooney there (she only worked for him in Danfield in one episode, but was fired by the end of that episode), then later moved to San Francisco (she moved to Los Angeles). For years afterward, every book on television that followed used that same grossly erroneous information about the show.

As for Vivian Vance, I don't know how Bart Andrews came up with 1912 as the date of her birth. She was alive at the time he wrote his book, so perhaps she told him this. But whether she told him this or not, it doesn't appear she did anything to correct this error. But given how much she hated the public thinking she could have been married to someone as old as William Frawley, I think she probably delighted in people thinking Lucille Ball was older than her.

When Andrews wrote his book in the 1970s, I don't believe there was any way he could verify her age, other than asking her or relatives or friends who were around when she was born. The courthouse in Independence, Kansas, where she was born, has a policy only releasing birth information to the subject in question, if they are alive, or to a direct family member if they are deceased. Before someone gave me the idea to go to the National Archives, I attempted to get this information from the courthouse there and this is what they told me. So Andrews would have faced the same situation if he had tried (because Vivian Vance was alive at the time, only she could get that information).

As for the census records, there is a law that information on individuals and families cannot be released publicly for something like 70 years, which means the earliest census records available when Bart Andrews wrote his book would have been the 1900 census. So he would have been out of luck until the 1910 records were made available in 1980. But that was a full four years after the release of the original version of his book. Of course, for some reason, neither he nor anyone else made any effort to check those records for years.

But now they are fully available to the public. As I mentioned, I saw them firsthand four or five years ago. I also saw records confirming Lucille Ball was born in 1911. So Vivian Vance was definitely two years older than Lucille Ball.

[NCVARick]

Originally posted by NCVARick:
People believe this because of misinformation originally published in Bart Andrews' 1976 book, "Lucy, Ricky, Fred & Ethel: The Story of 'I Love Lucy'" (the G-rated predecessor to his R-rated "The 'I Love Lucy' Book).

I'm sorry, I said that backwards. It should be the *R*-rated predecessor to his *G*-rated "The 'I Love Lucy' Book).