Debate!!!! - Sitcoms Online Message Boards

dawsongirl · 03-12-2003, 05:39 PM

The question: Would Desi Arnaz have achieved the mega success he had without Lucy?

Now, I do believe he would have been famous- that's obvious. He was really a Cuban hero. But would he have been the pop culture icon he was on TV or in movies w/o Lucy?

Post your opinions.

dlemond · 03-12-2003, 05:46 PM

I would have to say no, though you have no idea what kind of path he may have taken with music or movies.

I think a better question is what would have become of Lucy without Desi? Would she have been a megastar? (we know she was successful anyway).

Without "I Love Lucy" I don't think she would have reached the status she did. So would I Love Lucy have been as big or even that good without Desi?

I seriously doubt it, the chemistry is everything.

~LadyJess~ · 03-12-2003, 06:24 PM

I don't think Desi would be recognized how he is today without Lucy. He probably would have been successful in his day but then fade out of people's mind, only coming up in conversations with Hollywood or music buffs.

I think Lucy would have been successful without Desi but not nearly as much as she was. "I Love Lucy" would have just been "My Favorite Husband" but on TV and I don't think that would have become as big a classic as ILL.

Lucy and Desi together helped make them mega-stars, and I really don't think they could have done it alone.

Ricardos4ever · 03-12-2003, 08:56 PM

I don't think that either of them would have been remembered today if they didn't have each other. Sure, Lucy would have been a movie star in the 40s, but nobody would really remember the Queen of the Bs. They offered to turn her radio show into a television show, but if it hadn't been for Desi and their desire for them to work together and finally live together for an extended period of time, she probably wouldn't have done it. Keep in mind that going from movies to television in those days was considered career suicide. I once heard that television was like a grave yard for has-been movie stars. So she took a huge risk doing television to save her marriage. Also, even if she had done television, Desi's behind-the-scenes work is in part responsible for making "I Love Lucy" into the great thing it became.

On the other hand, Desi had gained popularity being a band leader and had worked on Broadway before he met Lucy, but her big name certainly didn't hurt once they were married. When she showed up at the clubs to watch him, it certainly helped ticket sales. He was a charasmatic and talented person who, without Lucy, probably would have worked as a bandleader for a while before fading into the background. Maybe he would have been remember by dancing fanatics as the guy who brought conga lines to the US, but I had no idea that it was his doing until I really started to read up on ILL. So I'm sure they would have been a couple of nobodys if they hadn't met each other. And they both probably knew it.

SPLAIN · 03-13-2003, 10:54 AM

Did you guys forget that Desi WAS forgotten when he died. The first obits were disgustingly small and had practically no info in them, then the next day, something more suitable appeared, wonder who had something to do with that? Desi would have faded eventually when he couldn't do those energetic routines that made him popular, he had charm and charisma, and even he admitted that because Lucy insisted on him playing her hubby, that was why he became an icon. She was finished in movies and she refused to do those horror films her contemporaries were doing, so she would have had a hit with Richard Denning in the Desi role, but it might not have lasted as long because it was the fact that they were married and showed us REAL emotions that it became the 50 year old phenomenon that it became. He was the talent behind the scenes, and he gave her the credit for being 90 percent of the show's success, she was a comedic genius all right, but with Gary at her side instead of Desi, she never regained that top position. She never knew what was funny and Desi MADE her look her best at all times, they were indeed a match made in heaven, and in my opinion they would have succeeded without each other but never to the same degree.

Ricardos4ever · 03-13-2003, 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SPLAIN
Did you guys forget that Desi WAS forgotten when he died. The first obits were disgustingly small and had practically no info in them, then the next day, something more suitable appeared, wonder who had something to do with that?

I don't know if Desi was really forgotten...when stars die, it rarely does make big headlines unless it was an accident or overdose or something. People get old and they die eventually. It's a fact of life and not usually front page news. The coverage of Lucy's death was so much more because she was the Queen of Television -- four television series behind her and most everyone loved her and grew up watching her. Also, her death was more sudden, whereas Desi already had the cancer and it wasn't any surprise that he died. As for Desi being forgotten, if you say the name Desi Arnaz today, most people will know who he is even if they aren't huge ILL fans like us. I don't think either of them will be forgetten any time soon.

SPLAIN · 03-13-2003, 02:20 PM

Of course when he died, people knew who he was, i meant that Lucy had something to do with the corrected obits the following days that talked about his contributions to the industry and the innovations that he brought forth, and so on, he wasn't just the second banana on a sitcom, he was a great producer director, show doctor who could do it all and better than anybody else, but without Lucy, he could not make a hit of The Mothers in Law, and without him, she was wildly popular, but her shows never again attained the quality levels they had when he was around. Just my opinion of course. Made for each other. . . that's how that song went, wasn't it?

Mickey · 03-13-2003, 04:41 PM

For all her talent, Lucy was probably only as big as she was because she was a woman, and there were very few of them in her position then. Desi was a pioneer in Latin music, bringing the Cuban sound to America, poularising dances like the Conga which took America by storm. You can't really imagine how huge he was at the time, especially in Florida, with his energetic dances and music. And the shock it caused! Like rock 'n' roll in that respect. He'd have become less famous over time, sure, but then who doesn't? If he'd stayed in music, concentrated on that, he'd have lost out to rock 'n' roll I guess, but then plenty of them did that. There's never been anything bigger than rock.

But would he have been big without Lucy? Sure, and he was. There are rumours that she bribed studio heads to stop offering him film roles, 'cause of her conviction that she was going to lose him to a younger woman one day. Whether or not she did it, nobody really knows, but she certainly had the clout. So maybe, without Lucy, he'd have bigger? Who knows?

Ricardos4ever · 03-13-2003, 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mickey
There are rumours that she bribed studio heads to stop offering him film roles, 'cause of her conviction that she was going to lose him to a younger woman one day. Whether or not she did it, nobody really knows, but she certainly had the clout. So maybe, without Lucy, he'd have bigger? Who knows?

Wow, I haven't heard that one before.

Barnabas1 · 03-13-2003, 08:46 PM

I think if it hadn't have been for I Love Lucy, Desi wouldn't have been anything big.

SPLAIN · 03-14-2003, 12:25 PM

While agreing with you that the kids today have no idea how wildly popular Desi was in New York City with his CONGA RHUMBA music, the statement about Lucy bribing studio heads was the first time i read something so ****** from you Mickey, see i like you too much and respect you too much to type the word out, but Lucy sending her hard earned money to bribe studio heads to stop Desi from getting parts is the most ridiculous thing i've ever heard on the boards since someone told us that maybe Kramer's Kandy Kitchen was a hidden reference to the Klu Klux Klan. She fought to GET him parts using her influence always to make him as big a star as she was, and then she fought to get him accepted as her husband on the show, then she fought all their married life to get him respect from the network and their fellow performers, always building up his contributions in their minds AND doing it still after they divorced. Even when he died and got practically no INK, she made sure the next day that appropriate obits stated his many contributions to the medium and his genius behind the scenes.

dawsongirl · 03-14-2003, 01:43 PM

Now, you have to admit she was a very jealous woman, so I'll go on the record as saying it could have happened. Logically.

SPLAIN · 03-14-2003, 02:18 PM

Well, i apologize to Mickey, i didn't mean for it to sound so harsh, but these two were always hard up for money back then, if you'll recall they had to borrow for the house and the pilot even though they were both well paid, so knowing how frugal she was, the idea of her wasting money to harm his career just got to me, she helped his career along all her life, of course she was insanely jealous, didn't she have reason to be? Having to give his secret hiding place's phone number to one of the floozies who called the house is a bit much, dontcha think?

Mickey · 03-14-2003, 04:17 PM

Hey, I said they were rumours, Splain, that's all. I'd quote sources, but I don't remember book or documentary titles too well, so I'll just give you what the sources said. I never gave them any credence either, although when I heard the same rumours from several different sources I did begin to wonder. There was a documentary about post war Hollywood which mentioned it, firstly, and I thought 'Huh?' then there was another one, about dirty tricks in Hollywood studios. They could be a damned bitchy bunch back then, incidentally. Maybe they still are! Then there was a throwaway comment in some book about actresses that I read, which mentioned Lucy's fears of abandonment, and again suggested that she might have tried to sabotage Desi's career. Then finally there was that odd TVM about their married life, which had it as part of the story, like it was common accepted knowledge. Not that I credit that with much inside information.

When you're famous there are rumours about you. Some are true, some aren't. No need to get so hot under the collar, Splain - just for the record I haven't believed a rumour about anybody since I gave up on the British press in about 1986!

But there's still no denying Desi was famous without Lucy!

SPLAIN · 03-14-2003, 05:24 PM

I said i was sorry Mickey, it's just that every time you think you've heard it all. . .

03-12-2003, 05:39 PM	#1
dawsongirl Member Forum Icon Join Date: Jan 04, 2001 Posts: 53,128	Debate!!!! The question: Would Desi Arnaz have achieved the mega success he had without Lucy? Now, I do believe he would have been famous- that's obvious. He was really a Cuban hero. But would he have been the pop culture icon he was on TV or in movies w/o Lucy? Post your opinions.

03-12-2003, 06:24 PM	#3
~LadyJess~ Football Chick Forum Fanatic Join Date: Mar 15, 2002 Location: At the Shamrock doing shots with Mo Posts: 8,260	I don't think Desi would be recognized how he is today without Lucy. He probably would have been successful in his day but then fade out of people's mind, only coming up in conversations with Hollywood or music buffs. I think Lucy would have been successful without Desi but not nearly as much as she was. "I Love Lucy" would have just been "My Favorite Husband" but on TV and I don't think that would have become as big a classic as ILL. Lucy and Desi together helped make them mega-stars, and I really don't think they could have done it alone.
	__________________ 8/26/05 Jessica & Anthony

03-12-2003, 08:56 PM	#4
Ricardos4ever Henna-rinsess Frequent Poster Join Date: Jan 28, 2002 Location: Somewhere in the middle of the world's longest Conga line Posts: 473	I don't think that either of them would have been remembered today if they didn't have each other. Sure, Lucy would have been a movie star in the 40s, but nobody would really remember the Queen of the Bs. They offered to turn her radio show into a television show, but if it hadn't been for Desi and their desire for them to work together and finally live together for an extended period of time, she probably wouldn't have done it. Keep in mind that going from movies to television in those days was considered career suicide. I once heard that television was like a grave yard for has-been movie stars. So she took a huge risk doing television to save her marriage. Also, even if she had done television, Desi's behind-the-scenes work is in part responsible for making "I Love Lucy" into the great thing it became. On the other hand, Desi had gained popularity being a band leader and had worked on Broadway before he met Lucy, but her big name certainly didn't hurt once they were married. When she showed up at the clubs to watch him, it certainly helped ticket sales. He was a charasmatic and talented person who, without Lucy, probably would have worked as a bandleader for a while before fading into the background. Maybe he would have been remember by dancing fanatics as the guy who brought conga lines to the US, but I had no idea that it was his doing until I really started to read up on ILL. So I'm sure they would have been a couple of nobodys if they hadn't met each other. And they both probably knew it.
	__________________ ELVIS LIVES ***** "They had one of those historical marriages, like Napoleon and Josephine, Richard and Liz--destined to be trouble but destined for them to never find anyone as passionate or as fabulous." -- Lucie Arnaz on her parents, Lucille Ball and Desi Arnaz

03-13-2003, 08:46 PM	#10
Barnabas1 Member Forum 4000 Club Member Join Date: Dec 01, 2001 Posts: 4,598	I think if it hadn't have been for I Love Lucy, Desi wouldn't have been anything big.
	__________________ My favorite shows :: I Love Lucy, Dark Shadows, Leave it to Beaver, The Munsters, Chico and the Man, and Get Smart. Formerly Babalu and agsfan

03-14-2003, 04:17 PM	#14
Mickey Ranger Forum Regular Join Date: Oct 12, 2002 Location: The UK, and still finding Desi funnier than Lucy Posts: 960	Hey, I said they were rumours, Splain, that's all. I'd quote sources, but I don't remember book or documentary titles too well, so I'll just give you what the sources said. I never gave them any credence either, although when I heard the same rumours from several different sources I did begin to wonder. There was a documentary about post war Hollywood which mentioned it, firstly, and I thought 'Huh?' then there was another one, about dirty tricks in Hollywood studios. They could be a damned bitchy bunch back then, incidentally. Maybe they still are! Then there was a throwaway comment in some book about actresses that I read, which mentioned Lucy's fears of abandonment, and again suggested that she might have tried to sabotage Desi's career. Then finally there was that odd TVM about their married life, which had it as part of the story, like it was common accepted knowledge. Not that I credit that with much inside information. When you're famous there are rumours about you. Some are true, some aren't. No need to get so hot under the collar, Splain - just for the record I haven't believed a rumour about anybody since I gave up on the British press in about 1986! But there's still no denying Desi was famous without Lucy!
	Last edited by Mickey; 03-15-2003 at 09:30 AM.

03-12-2003, 05:46 PM	#2
dlemond Hey, I know you. Moderator Forum Veteran Join Date: Dec 03, 2001 Location: New Jersey Posts: 6,751	I would have to say no, though you have no idea what kind of path he may have taken with music or movies. I think a better question is what would have become of Lucy without Desi? Would she have been a megastar? (we know she was successful anyway). Without "I Love Lucy" I don't think she would have reached the status she did. So would I Love Lucy have been as big or even that good without Desi? I seriously doubt it, the chemistry is everything.

03-13-2003, 10:54 AM	#5
SPLAIN I Love Lucy Forum 4000 Club Member Join Date: Mar 04, 2002 Location: MONTREAL, CANADA Posts: 4,563	Did you guys forget that Desi WAS forgotten when he died. The first obits were disgustingly small and had practically no info in them, then the next day, something more suitable appeared, wonder who had something to do with that? Desi would have faded eventually when he couldn't do those energetic routines that made him popular, he had charm and charisma, and even he admitted that because Lucy insisted on him playing her hubby, that was why he became an icon. She was finished in movies and she refused to do those horror films her contemporaries were doing, so she would have had a hit with Richard Denning in the Desi role, but it might not have lasted as long because it was the fact that they were married and showed us REAL emotions that it became the 50 year old phenomenon that it became. He was the talent behind the scenes, and he gave her the credit for being 90 percent of the show's success, she was a comedic genius all right, but with Gary at her side instead of Desi, she never regained that top position. She never knew what was funny and Desi MADE her look her best at all times, they were indeed a match made in heaven, and in my opinion they would have succeeded without each other but never to the same degree.

03-13-2003, 02:20 PM	#7
SPLAIN I Love Lucy Forum 4000 Club Member Join Date: Mar 04, 2002 Location: MONTREAL, CANADA Posts: 4,563	Of course when he died, people knew who he was, i meant that Lucy had something to do with the corrected obits the following days that talked about his contributions to the industry and the innovations that he brought forth, and so on, he wasn't just the second banana on a sitcom, he was a great producer director, show doctor who could do it all and better than anybody else, but without Lucy, he could not make a hit of The Mothers in Law, and without him, she was wildly popular, but her shows never again attained the quality levels they had when he was around. Just my opinion of course. Made for each other. . . that's how that song went, wasn't it?

03-13-2003, 04:41 PM	#8
Mickey Ranger Forum Regular Join Date: Oct 12, 2002 Location: The UK, and still finding Desi funnier than Lucy Posts: 960	For all her talent, Lucy was probably only as big as she was because she was a woman, and there were very few of them in her position then. Desi was a pioneer in Latin music, bringing the Cuban sound to America, poularising dances like the Conga which took America by storm. You can't really imagine how huge he was at the time, especially in Florida, with his energetic dances and music. And the shock it caused! Like rock 'n' roll in that respect. He'd have become less famous over time, sure, but then who doesn't? If he'd stayed in music, concentrated on that, he'd have lost out to rock 'n' roll I guess, but then plenty of them did that. There's never been anything bigger than rock. But would he have been big without Lucy? Sure, and he was. There are rumours that she bribed studio heads to stop offering him film roles, 'cause of her conviction that she was going to lose him to a younger woman one day. Whether or not she did it, nobody really knows, but she certainly had the clout. So maybe, without Lucy, he'd have bigger? Who knows?

03-14-2003, 12:25 PM	#11
SPLAIN I Love Lucy Forum 4000 Club Member Join Date: Mar 04, 2002 Location: MONTREAL, CANADA Posts: 4,563	While agreing with you that the kids today have no idea how wildly popular Desi was in New York City with his CONGA RHUMBA music, the statement about Lucy bribing studio heads was the first time i read something so ****** from you Mickey, see i like you too much and respect you too much to type the word out, but Lucy sending her hard earned money to bribe studio heads to stop Desi from getting parts is the most ridiculous thing i've ever heard on the boards since someone told us that maybe Kramer's Kandy Kitchen was a hidden reference to the Klu Klux Klan. She fought to GET him parts using her influence always to make him as big a star as she was, and then she fought to get him accepted as her husband on the show, then she fought all their married life to get him respect from the network and their fellow performers, always building up his contributions in their minds AND doing it still after they divorced. Even when he died and got practically no INK, she made sure the next day that appropriate obits stated his many contributions to the medium and his genius behind the scenes.

03-14-2003, 01:43 PM	#12
dawsongirl Member Forum Icon Join Date: Jan 04, 2001 Posts: 53,128	Now, you have to admit she was a very jealous woman, so I'll go on the record as saying it could have happened. Logically.

03-14-2003, 02:18 PM	#13
SPLAIN I Love Lucy Forum 4000 Club Member Join Date: Mar 04, 2002 Location: MONTREAL, CANADA Posts: 4,563	Well, i apologize to Mickey, i didn't mean for it to sound so harsh, but these two were always hard up for money back then, if you'll recall they had to borrow for the house and the pilot even though they were both well paid, so knowing how frugal she was, the idea of her wasting money to harm his career just got to me, she helped his career along all her life, of course she was insanely jealous, didn't she have reason to be? Having to give his secret hiding place's phone number to one of the floozies who called the house is a bit much, dontcha think?

03-14-2003, 05:24 PM	#15
SPLAIN I Love Lucy Forum 4000 Club Member Join Date: Mar 04, 2002 Location: MONTREAL, CANADA Posts: 4,563	I said i was sorry Mickey, it's just that every time you think you've heard it all. . .