Hate Between Vivian & Bill - Sitcoms Online Message Boards

Jack1000 · 02-21-2003, 03:31 PM

Guys,

By all accounts for everyone who has researched I Love Lucy, it is well documented that Vivian Vance and William Frawley had one of the strongest and deepest anamosities toward each other ever heard or read about. They both despised each other so much. I have read/seen interviews about ILL that said that there were times that Vivian would become physically ill after rehersals or because of tensions with Bill on the set that upon driving home, there was at least one incident where she had to pull over, get out of her car, and throw up.

My question is, if someone can hate someone so much as for them to become physically ill just thinking about them, the tension between the two of them reall must have been a nightmare. What did Vivian do to Bill, or what did Bill do to Vivian that was so hurtful? Or did the two just hate each other from the get-go with no apparent reason. I would like more background on their "squabbles" if possible. BTW, I LOVED the zingers that they would swing back and forth at each other on the show! When I found out that they hated each other off screen so much, I think it just added to the chemestry of them as a couple on screen.

Jack

SPLAIN · 02-21-2003, 04:25 PM

She hated the fact that America would think she could be married to someone that old. He made comments about her singing, as he was this barbershop quartet kind of guy, hey, he was a chronic complainer who hated everybody, he used to call Lucy and Desi names too, but yes, he really hated her when word got back to him about what she thought, that she could be married to that old coot! But they both paid for that hatred, Desi offered them a spin off show after ILL ended, which Viv refused to do, so Bill went to My Three Sons, and he hated her more now for making him lose the extra money he would have made. It's an extra plus for us fans to look at the shows now and spot scenes where they have to kiss or hug and you can see how hard it was for them. Except for the show where they prepare the apartment for The Ricardos anniversary, they had this long scene together and it doesn't show at all!

SPLAIN · 02-21-2003, 04:28 PM

He was a chronic complainer who loved baseball more than acting on the show, but i forgot to mention she was a person suffering at home with a wife beater and many mental problems, so they had worse problems than not getting along!

Ricardos4ever · 02-23-2003, 04:16 PM

From what I've read and seen in interviews with people who worked on the ILL, their hatred wasn't as deep as everyone made it out to be. I remember one person saying that they were just an extension of their characters--they kind of took pleasure in insulting each other, as Fred and Ethel did.

SPLAIN · 02-24-2003, 03:30 PM

Yeah, you're probably right, these thins always get zaggerated in the press.

tdr · 02-24-2003, 10:10 PM

The accounts vary as to how much they despised each other, ranging from literal hatred to just taking some jabs. One book I remember reading related an interview with a man who knew them both, and he claimed that even though they were insulting to one another and talked derogatorially behind the other's back, that if one were in deep trouble the other would come from across the country to help. That is very doubtful, since I have not read anything else to suggest it was that way at all. But I also don't know about the account that when Vance heard of Frawley's death, she was having dinner with friends and she offered a toast to his passing.

But I certainly think Vance had more reason to be disgruntled than Frawley. She didn't want the role of Ethel, but apparently Desi Arnaz and her agent talked her into it. And then they wanted her to gain 20 pounds and to dress "frumpy" because Lucy was to be the gorgeous, better-dressed of the 2 by comparison. And then having a surly drunk, 22 years older than she, to play her husband, and many of the show's fans thought they, like Lucy and Desi, were married 'for real.' As if all that were not enough, in the scripts Fred makes more cracks about Ethel being old and fat than she makes about him, when he was a lot older and a lot fatter. Nevertheless, their characters 'worked,' and the show the most successful of that era. But I, for one, cannot possibly blame her for refusing to consider any spinoff series with 'Fred.'

SPLAIN · 02-25-2003, 10:16 AM

Very well said! I have to get my hands on those two books about them, then again, i think you just gave a great synopsis with that post!

Ricardos4ever · 02-25-2003, 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by tdr
As if all that were not enough, in the scripts Fred makes more cracks about Ethel being old and fat than she makes about him, when he was a lot older and a lot fatter.

I never liked those cracks about Ethel being fat. Even though the script was not talking about Viv directly, it can still be very damaging to her self esteem. Look at Tracey Gold from "Growing Pains". She developed an dangerous eating disorder because the script was joking about her being chubby.

SPLAIN · 02-26-2003, 10:55 AM

Yes, but, it's not a script that will bring out those problems, there are underlying problems that have never been dealt with that her the cause for Ms. Gold and for Viv too, deep mental problems and spousal abuse for Viv, among other things.

JaneTVFan · 03-08-2003, 03:22 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ricardos4ever

I never liked those cracks about Ethel being fat. Even though the script was not talking about Viv directly, it can still be very damaging to her self esteem. Look at Tracey Gold from "Growing Pains". She developed an dangerous eating disorder because the script was joking about her being chubby.

Remember that scene at the beginning of Lucy Makes Room for Danny where Lucy and Ricky are struggling to close the suitcase, then Ethel walks in looking absolutely svelt, sits on the suitcase, and it closes instantly. The audience laughs as usual because fat Ethel manages to close the suitcase. The thing is, at that point, Vivian looked skinnier than Lucille Ball.

JaneTVFan · 03-08-2003, 03:31 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by SPLAIN
Yeah, you're probably right, these thins always get zaggerated in the press.

I remember one of the Livingston brothers from My Three Sons recounting a story (at a recent Lucy convention) about a time when William Frawley got him to sneak with him into the studio where The Lucy Show was shot (which was close by the My Three Sons soundstage). The Lucy Show cast was busy rehearsing their next show. Frawley and this Livingston boy had a bunch of metal film reel containers and were hiding in the dark under the bleachers in the studio. At the precise moment when Vivian started reading her lines in rehearsal, Frawley gave the signal for the two of them to drop all the metal containers they were holding, creating tremendous noise and, of course, interrupting Vivian and throwing her off. Frawley and Livingston took off, sight unseen, but could hear Vivian screaming "Bill! Bill! Where are you?!" Even though she couldn't see him, she knew exactly who the troublemaker was.

SPLAIN · 03-10-2003, 11:53 AM

Isn't that a FUNNY story Jane, thanks so much for posting it, i can just see that old coot running away laughing.

LucyLover2005 · 04-13-2003, 06:16 PM

Even though they hated each other so much,they made 'I Love Lucy' one of the best shows in America,so they had to work out there problems somehow...or the show wouldn't have gone on for so long!

SPLAIN · 04-14-2003, 10:04 AM

They didn't HIDE it that well, if you look at the shows now that we know about their little feud, you always notice that they can hardly get close to one another in kissing or snuggling scenes.

Mickey · 04-14-2003, 12:02 PM

Which is funny really. By all accounts Pierce Brosnan and Stephanie Zimbalist hated each other just as much when they were doing Remington Steele, but you'd never notice it to watch them together. They really look like they're in love. That edginess to Ethel and Fred's relationship works though, doesn't it. Fred's supposed to be testy, anyway. He's much more relaxed with Ricky than he is with Ethel, and I think that's the way it should be for his character.

All that about Ethel though. She wasn't fat, and she never was. No wonder the poor woman would sometimes take offence! I don't why she worried that people would think she was the same age as Fred though. She's obviously a lot younger. I always thought of it as Fred having married a much younger woman.

02-21-2003, 03:31 PM	#1
Jack1000 Member Senior Member Join Date: Dec 05, 2001 Posts: 2,055	Hate Between Vivian & Bill Guys, By all accounts for everyone who has researched I Love Lucy, it is well documented that Vivian Vance and William Frawley had one of the strongest and deepest anamosities toward each other ever heard or read about. They both despised each other so much. I have read/seen interviews about ILL that said that there were times that Vivian would become physically ill after rehersals or because of tensions with Bill on the set that upon driving home, there was at least one incident where she had to pull over, get out of her car, and throw up. My question is, if someone can hate someone so much as for them to become physically ill just thinking about them, the tension between the two of them reall must have been a nightmare. What did Vivian do to Bill, or what did Bill do to Vivian that was so hurtful? Or did the two just hate each other from the get-go with no apparent reason. I would like more background on their "squabbles" if possible. BTW, I LOVED the zingers that they would swing back and forth at each other on the show! When I found out that they hated each other off screen so much, I think it just added to the chemestry of them as a couple on screen. Jack

04-13-2003, 06:16 PM	#13
LucyLover2005 Member Forum Hawk Join Date: Apr 13, 2003 Location: Fredericksburg,VA Posts: 4	Viv & William Even though they hated each other so much,they made 'I Love Lucy' one of the best shows in America,so they had to work out there problems somehow...or the show wouldn't have gone on for so long!

02-21-2003, 04:25 PM	#2
SPLAIN I Love Lucy Forum 4000 Club Member Join Date: Mar 04, 2002 Location: MONTREAL, CANADA Posts: 4,563	She hated the fact that America would think she could be married to someone that old. He made comments about her singing, as he was this barbershop quartet kind of guy, hey, he was a chronic complainer who hated everybody, he used to call Lucy and Desi names too, but yes, he really hated her when word got back to him about what she thought, that she could be married to that old coot! But they both paid for that hatred, Desi offered them a spin off show after ILL ended, which Viv refused to do, so Bill went to My Three Sons, and he hated her more now for making him lose the extra money he would have made. It's an extra plus for us fans to look at the shows now and spot scenes where they have to kiss or hug and you can see how hard it was for them. Except for the show where they prepare the apartment for The Ricardos anniversary, they had this long scene together and it doesn't show at all!

02-21-2003, 04:28 PM	#3
SPLAIN I Love Lucy Forum 4000 Club Member Join Date: Mar 04, 2002 Location: MONTREAL, CANADA Posts: 4,563	He was a chronic complainer who loved baseball more than acting on the show, but i forgot to mention she was a person suffering at home with a wife beater and many mental problems, so they had worse problems than not getting along!

02-23-2003, 04:16 PM	#4
Ricardos4ever Henna-rinsess Frequent Poster Join Date: Jan 28, 2002 Location: Somewhere in the middle of the world's longest Conga line Posts: 473	From what I've read and seen in interviews with people who worked on the ILL, their hatred wasn't as deep as everyone made it out to be. I remember one person saying that they were just an extension of their characters--they kind of took pleasure in insulting each other, as Fred and Ethel did.

02-24-2003, 03:30 PM	#5
SPLAIN I Love Lucy Forum 4000 Club Member Join Date: Mar 04, 2002 Location: MONTREAL, CANADA Posts: 4,563	Yeah, you're probably right, these thins always get zaggerated in the press.

02-24-2003, 10:10 PM	#6
tdr Member Senior Member Join Date: Mar 23, 2001 Posts: 1,454	The accounts vary as to how much they despised each other, ranging from literal hatred to just taking some jabs. One book I remember reading related an interview with a man who knew them both, and he claimed that even though they were insulting to one another and talked derogatorially behind the other's back, that if one were in deep trouble the other would come from across the country to help. That is very doubtful, since I have not read anything else to suggest it was that way at all. But I also don't know about the account that when Vance heard of Frawley's death, she was having dinner with friends and she offered a toast to his passing. But I certainly think Vance had more reason to be disgruntled than Frawley. She didn't want the role of Ethel, but apparently Desi Arnaz and her agent talked her into it. And then they wanted her to gain 20 pounds and to dress "frumpy" because Lucy was to be the gorgeous, better-dressed of the 2 by comparison. And then having a surly drunk, 22 years older than she, to play her husband, and many of the show's fans thought they, like Lucy and Desi, were married 'for real.' As if all that were not enough, in the scripts Fred makes more cracks about Ethel being old and fat than she makes about him, when he was a lot older and a lot fatter. Nevertheless, their characters 'worked,' and the show the most successful of that era. But I, for one, cannot possibly blame her for refusing to consider any spinoff series with 'Fred.'

02-25-2003, 10:16 AM	#7
SPLAIN I Love Lucy Forum 4000 Club Member Join Date: Mar 04, 2002 Location: MONTREAL, CANADA Posts: 4,563	Very well said! I have to get my hands on those two books about them, then again, i think you just gave a great synopsis with that post!

02-26-2003, 10:55 AM	#9
SPLAIN I Love Lucy Forum 4000 Club Member Join Date: Mar 04, 2002 Location: MONTREAL, CANADA Posts: 4,563	Yes, but, it's not a script that will bring out those problems, there are underlying problems that have never been dealt with that her the cause for Ms. Gold and for Viv too, deep mental problems and spousal abuse for Viv, among other things.

03-10-2003, 11:53 AM	#12
SPLAIN I Love Lucy Forum 4000 Club Member Join Date: Mar 04, 2002 Location: MONTREAL, CANADA Posts: 4,563	Isn't that a FUNNY story Jane, thanks so much for posting it, i can just see that old coot running away laughing.

04-14-2003, 10:04 AM	#14
SPLAIN I Love Lucy Forum 4000 Club Member Join Date: Mar 04, 2002 Location: MONTREAL, CANADA Posts: 4,563	They didn't HIDE it that well, if you look at the shows now that we know about their little feud, you always notice that they can hardly get close to one another in kissing or snuggling scenes.

04-14-2003, 12:02 PM	#15
Mickey Ranger Forum Regular Join Date: Oct 12, 2002 Location: The UK, and still finding Desi funnier than Lucy Posts: 960	Which is funny really. By all accounts Pierce Brosnan and Stephanie Zimbalist hated each other just as much when they were doing Remington Steele, but you'd never notice it to watch them together. They really look like they're in love. That edginess to Ethel and Fred's relationship works though, doesn't it. Fred's supposed to be testy, anyway. He's much more relaxed with Ricky than he is with Ethel, and I think that's the way it should be for his character. All that about Ethel though. She wasn't fat, and she never was. No wonder the poor woman would sometimes take offence! I don't why she worried that people would think she was the same age as Fred though. She's obviously a lot younger. I always thought of it as Fred having married a much younger woman.