Still B&W Lost Episodes

[Frank Gannucci]

I have been in contact with a guy on Steve Hoffman in regards to lost episodes that he says that he has. This is what he has said.

"If you're referring to the two DuMont episodes I got on VHS, they do, with Pert Kelton. Unfortunately I do not know the dates of the shows, and they are on a VHS and I could never find it quickly now, the VHS tapes that I kept are all boxed up in storage."

"I don't remember what the sketches were. I have wondered myself whether these two episodes are "lost" officially, but they were out there from a collector who was trading tapes of them and many other rare things. This was the only tape of any kind that I got from him, I traded him some audio tapes. I do not remember who he was! If Gleason himself did not have copies of these two, I think or I would like to think that the people who worked on getting the "lost" episodes" together knew about these and obtained them, and any others, in the collector market just like I did. They may have been of too poor technical quality to release officially."

"The two episodes I got on VHS were Cavalcade Of Stars with Jackie Gleason, each with a Honeymooners sketch with Pert Kelton as Alice. I have a vague memory that one show, at least, had a Poor Soul sketch with Gleason, and there were guest stars (now forgettable, I think), perhaps singing or in other sketches, I don't remember. It was Jackie's DuMont show.
So these are far earlier than the mythical(?) World Of Ed Norton.

"I should note I never knew the dates of the shows, that was not labeled and I think the collector did not know."

"They are buried in storage, one tape in about 12 boxes of tapes of 48 each, standard office white file boxes, buried under even more stuff, and that's the first problem. If I did find it, I think I now could make a DVD from it, if my also in storage VHS<>DVD recorder still works.
"So, I don't know. Something reasonable. I'll keep an eye out, but I am just not motivated now to search through everything."

"I said thanks and wanted to know if these episodes are unavailable to the general public. This is his response.

"I am curious too, as I sort of referred to in my original 2016 comment about the tape here, and I think I mentioned it here even years earlier in a comment I can't find right now. You asking me this has moved it up my list of things to do. But it has to be still way down my list."

"But going through these tapes is just way down my list. I had to store them because I was not using them but these are the ones that were too good to toss or try to sell. I did get rid of more than half of my VHS tapes, sold some, tossed or gave away others. I know I kept this one, but it is just one in the pile of boxes. And other stuff is piled on top of those boxes."

"Nothing wrong!
Frank, I assure you it's on my list of things to do sometime. But it just can't be anytime soon. I am swamped with work. It would take me hours and hours to try to find the tape. I have remembered that I must have gotten this in probably 1991 or maybe 1996 (but definitely in 1987 or later, I moved in 1987 and I watched the tape in my 1987 to present place). These VHSes of mine are buried under layers, and the boxes they're in are not dated. I threw out or gave away half of my VHS tapes, I know I would have kept this one, but I cannot find it easily. And now that I think about it there are probably 20 boxes of these tapes, including commercial tapes I bought, collector tapes I bought or traded for, and off-air tapes I recorded. All mixed together.
But I can assure you that the tape has only two episodes of Cavalcade of Stars hosted by Gleason on the DuMont network. Each has a Honeymooners skit with Pert Kelton as Alice, that's why I got the tape, just to see that. Pert Kelton played Alice a lot rougher than Audrey Meadows did, and you could imagine Ralph and that original Alice could actually come to blows (on occasion off screen). You'd never think that with Alice played by Audrey. As far as I know all the scripts and storylines from the DuMont Honeymooners skits were reused when Gleason went to CBS. Only maybe 10,000 people ever saw the DuMont shows live, and Gleason became a big star on CBS. They might have softened the roughest parts for Audrey playing Alice, but they started from the same actual Honeymooners scripts. So it's very likely that you have seen both stories, but maybe not the rougher versions with Pert Kelton. I do not remember which two stories these two episodes have. Nothing else was special about these two episodes, and the Honeymooners sketch in each is only about 10 minutes each.
"The Incredible World of Ed Norton is definitely not on the tape.
"You're welcome to remind me in a couple months and every couple months until I get to it."

"Hello! No, not yet. I am very slowly excavating through everything, so I am a little closer. But I am just going through what's in the front, as found, I won't be digging through other stuff to specifically get to the tapes. When I get to the tapes, boxes of VHS and some Beta but I know this one is VHS, I will look for it. I remember it is labeled as Cavalcade Of Stars and is basically a homemade tape from some collector. And I certainly will watch and note what 2 shows are there.

"I do not have any scripts of Honeymooners or Gleason anything. I actually do have a couple original movie scripts - somewhere (not Gleason).

"I do not mind you "ping"ing me about this. But no need to for at least another 3-4 months. If I do find it sooner I will let you know."

"But in my excavations, fortunately or unfortunately, I have found another 240 mixed VHS and Beta tapes I forgot about. (5 boxes of 48 each). I have not gone through those at all yet, but these will be the easiest to go through when I get a round tuit."

"Not yet. It is slow going, to go through 30+ years of packed stuff in the garage. It is now winter and I won't be trying more until it warms again, but I do have to get through this stuff.

"I got the VHS from an ad in either Goldmine or a films journal of the same type. I got it just because I wanted to see the two Cavalcade of Stars shows it had, with Pert Kelton as Alice. I'm certain it does not have the Incredible World show.

Feel free to ping me again in a few months."

"I need to get through this stuff but this tape must be all the way buried in back. I see my boxes of tapes way in back. I get tired and frustrated even spending 1 hour on going through this other stuff. But I must. I easily throw out 1/4 of the stuff I come across, which all seemed worth keeping back when."

"But soon I have to dig in the garage when it warms up and I will have to dig all the way through to get a piece (old tape deck) someone wants to buy. So I will dig through to where the tapes are. When it warms up this month. I will have to leave things outside overnight while I'm digging so it has to be warm during daytime with no rain for a couple of days."

"Slight progress. I took a picture of some of these tapes so you can see what I am up against

(he showed me the picture)

"Each of those 12 boxes (2 hidden at the bottom left) (not the Papa John or the one under that), which is how 2-liter Pepsi used to be shipped which shows how long ago I packed these up, and the Utz boxes are about the same size, holds 48 tapes. 99% of them are home recorded, very few commercial movie tapes. That picture shows 576 tapes. That picture is one of THREE bunches of those boxes and I have some more tapes scattered around in smaller boxes. So there are around 2000+ almost all home recorded tapes, mostly VHS and some Betas which are the oldest. And the tape with the two old Cavalcade shows was in a same size VHS box, it was just a dupe that I bought from someone with a mail order ad - pre-internet. It is in the pile somewhere. It is labeled on the tape and on the box, so I will recognize it when I see it. If I see it.

"I am positive I do not have the Jan 17 1970 show in any form. Except maybe -

I have remembered that there was a half hour syndicated The Jackie Gleason Show in the mid 1980s, around right after the time that the "Lost Honeymooners" was first presented on Showtime. I probably have a few of those recorded on those tapes. Those syndicated shows were cut down from the 1960s series and absolutely never had any Honeymooners content, only the other skits from the show, cut down something like the half hour versions of The Carol Burnett Show which are still seen on MeTV. But that particular Gleason syndicated thing seems to be forgotten now, and it would not have had any Honeymooners or Ed Norton. But it shows that the 1960s shows (incl. Jan 1970) were all reviewed and cut down to make that half hour series. But the half hours did not show any original dates."

"Yes, each show has a Honeymooners sketch, with Pert Kelton as Alice. Art as Ed is probably in those too, and I don't remember if Trixie was in them."

What do you think the chances of this guy actually having unavailable Honeymooners sketches that MPI has NOT released before and hasnt been seen on TV?

[RetroGuy2000]

Always possible; DuMont shows (of other series) do pop up from time to time. But it seems more likely these are already found episodes, since they are on VHS.

[Frank Gannucci]

Here’s another tidbit. He says he got this tape in 1987 which may have been BEFORE the Pert Kelton Honeymooners sketches were found.

[cloggedmind]

Originally Posted by Frank Gannucci

Here’s another tidbit. He says he got this tape in 1987 which may have been BEFORE the Pert Kelton Honeymooners sketches were found.

Back in '87, I was still watchin' the American Scene, videotaped in the LP speed from WOR-9 (Is that it?) at 3-4am in the morning, usually followed by Harness Racing from Yonkers, or pre-empted/replaced with, somehow, COMPLETE episodes of Saturday Night Live! Full hour-and-a-half vintage shows with musical acts intact. And I didn't save any of those. 'Magine that!?

The Monkees were also on the outs with MTV, yet they had a new album and single out, and I was digging their show on Nickelodeon. I'd just gotten a new HI-FI and my own room, a new girlfriend, a mullet (Like Davy Jones from the "Heart and Soul" single cover) and a beginner's permit to go along with a "practically-a-gift" car-- a brand-spanking, old 1982, black Chrysler Laser that cost me $50 and had a turbo-charger that looked like the first incarnation of the Sega Genesis!

Why mention all this? For 3 reasons:
1) To draw attention to the fact that that dude who is stringing you along is full of poop.
2) I'm bored, medicated, half-insane and don't know what the other half is
3) See reason 1

[Frank Gannucci]

Ok. Thanks a lot.

[RetroTVNitekatt]

Originally Posted by cloggedmind

Back in '87, I was still watchin' the American Scene, videotaped in the LP speed from WOR-9 (Is that it?) at 3-4am in the morning, usually followed by Harness Racing from Yonkers, or pre-empted/replaced with, somehow, COMPLETE episodes of Saturday Night Live! Full hour-and-a-half vintage shows with musical acts intact. And I didn't save any of those. 'Magine that!?

The Monkees were also on the outs with MTV, yet they had a new album and single out, and I was digging their show on Nickelodeon. I'd just gotten a new HI-FI and my own room, a new girlfriend, a mullet (Like Davy Jones from the "Heart and Soul" single cover) and a beginner's permit to go along with a "practically-a-gift" car-- a brand-spanking, old 1982, black Chrysler Laser that cost me $50 and had a turbo-charger that looked like the first incarnation of the Sega Genesis!

Why mention all this? For 3 reasons:
1) To draw attention to the fact that that dude who is stringing you along is full of poop.
2) I'm bored, medicated, half-insane and don't know what the other half is
3) See reason 1

Actually, when WOR was running the first 5 seasons of SATURDAY NIGHT LIVE, they were only an hour long (and did include the musical performances, but not all of them.) - That's how they were originally prepared for Syndication by Orion Television/Broadway Video when first syndicated in the fall of 1981. (I've got some Betamax recordings still of a handful of the WOR rebroadcasts.) They weren't edited down to a half-hour till the 1990's, which are the versions "Nick at Night" ran!

[cloggedmind]

Originally Posted by RetroTVNitekatt

Actually, when WOR was running the first 5 seasons of SATURDAY NIGHT LIVE, they were only an hour long (and did include the musical performances, but not all of them.) - That's how they were originally prepared for Syndication by Orion Television/Broadway Video when first syndicated in the fall of 1981. (I've got some Betamax recordings still of a handful of the WOR rebroadcasts.) They weren't edited down to a half-hour till the 1990's, which are the versions "Nick at Night" ran!

Those half-hour versions were chopped to ribbons. I couldn't stand watching those.

[RetroTVNitekatt]

Originally Posted by cloggedmind

Those half-hour versions were chopped to ribbons. I couldn't stand watching those.

Yeh, but they were easier to sell in syndication, and they didn't have to clear music rights on 99% of them as the musical acts were cut.

I'm guessing Lorne Michaels oversaw the edits.

[Frank Gannucci]

Originally Posted by RetroTVNitekatt

Actually, when WOR was running the first 5 seasons of SATURDAY NIGHT LIVE, they were only an hour long (and did include the musical performances, but not all of them.) - That's how they were originally prepared for Syndication by Orion Television/Broadway Video when first syndicated in the fall of 1981. (I've got some Betamax recordings still of a handful of the WOR rebroadcasts.) They weren't edited down to a half-hour till the 1990's, which are the versions "Nick at Night" ran!

I think those edited SNL shows aired on NAN started in 1988. Do you remember if those episodes of SNL that aired on Nick were edited for family viewing? This was before the days of on screen parental TV ratings. Also, on a side note, I am sure that if the Internet social media existed back than, NAN would be criticised for airing this because of the apparant content as well as the fact that the show launched less than 15 years prior and was (and still is) on the air.