Was Lilith selfish or misunderstood? - Sitcoms Online Message Boards

Brian Damage · 07-12-2002, 06:39 PM

One of my favorite characters is Frasier Crane. In the episode where he discovers Lilith's infidelity, I was never able to look at her character the same way again. She callously stomped on his heart and walked away from her son. Don't forget she also slept with Frasier's brother Niles.(I know they were already divorced, but it was still wrong) I can't help but see her as selfish and coldhearted. Am I right or was she misunderstood?(Probably mis-written)

Central Perk · 07-12-2002, 09:27 PM

Hmm they made her not that well written because she through a major fit over when Frasier wrote the letter about Rebecca...so I doubt she would do anything like that for real...I still like her though...but feel bad for Frasier..

TALLguyinKY · 07-12-2002, 10:54 PM

I think she was misunderstood, and Rebecca gave some valid reasons why. And I truly feel she is sincere when she deeply regrets and resents what she did. But yeah, I wish the writers hadn't done that---I hated 'em at the time.

Dr. Lilith Sternin · 07-12-2002, 11:09 PM

I feel the character was completely mis-written by the show's end. However, I feel Bebe brought a certain vulnerablity and warmth to the character despite the crappy material she was dealt. She made Lilith the "misunderstood" character. There was little to be desired by the end of Lilith and Frasier's marriage, and I can see how Lilith was feeling neglected. She said straight out to him... "I need a husband, not a psychiatrist." Instead of just being there for her, he had to psychoanalyze her every move. Trying to justify why she would cheat on him, for example. The fact was, there was no justification, and Lilith was aware. I don't think she was pleased by her decision, and I don't think she was cold hearted about it. The problem was, she always came across as being so strong that I think Frasier took advantage of that, ultimately not providing the nurturing their marriage obviously needed.

Frasier was not always kind to Lilith either. He was constantly giving her little digs and whether or not it was all in "good fun," it would hurt any woman after a while.

Anyway, I don't see her as cold hearted or selfish... she left Frasier because she thought she had found in Pascal what Frasier wasn't providing her. He was completely devoted to Lilith (and psychotic, yes... so mostly it was obsession). He probably made Lilith feel important, and maybe she just needed that at that time. Also, she was going to stay even though she told Frasier she would spend the rest of her days miserable... she was willing to do that for Frasier -- he almost made her! I don't think that constitutes as being cold-hearted or selfish. It was selfish on Frasier's part for even considering making her stay when she was obviously miserable. We all make mistakes and she shouldn't have slept with Pascal. However, no one looks at it from Lilith's POV... Rebecca even remarked during that episode. "What about Lilith?" She didn't just maliciously sleep with the man to hurt Frasier. She was trying to fill an empty void.

As for sleeping with Niles... again with the vulnerablity. Her femininity was being threatened. She had just been dumped by her husband and she just wanted to... feel wanted. Niles was there and in the same place. She really didn't do anything wrong. Some ex-wife/ex-husbands end up marrying their ex-spouses brother or sister! Frasier and Lilith had been divorced for many a year and she was right... they're both adults. She obviously felt bad about it though... she didn't want Frasier to find out!

In conclusion, I feel Lilith is just misunderstood and yes, mis-written. She's not a cold-hearted, calculating bitch. She has a soft side as much as she'd like to hide it.

Whew... I like to run my mouth (or in this case, fingers).

NaughtyStephieGirl · 07-12-2002, 11:47 PM

I totally agree with everything B said. I think the whole affair thing was completely mis-written. I don't think Lilith would have ever left her child to go live in some Eco-pod. That whole thing was ridiculous. Although I definitely don't think she should have slept with Dr. Pascal (the bald guy?!), I can understand why she did it. Frasier wasn't really there for her as much as he should have. I mean, watch the show. He was at Cheers practically every waking moment. And the jabs that Frasier and the gang made at her had to hurt her self-esteem. I don't think she was being cold-hearted in any way. She still cared about Frasier, and she didn't mean to hurt him. She was just at a point in her life where she was feeling under-appreciated and I guess Dr. Pascal made her feel wanted (even if he did turn out to be a complete wacko). Anyway, I absolutely agree with B that Lilith was misunderstood, and the end of Frasier and Lilith's marriage was mis-written.

By the way, Frasier and Lilith MUST get back together at the end of "Frasier"! (Sorry, I just had to say that.)

MeganMullallyFan · 07-13-2002, 01:52 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by NaughtyStephieGirl
I totally agree with everything B said. I think the whole affair thing was completely mis-written. I don't think Lilith would have ever left her child to go live in some Eco-pod. That whole thing was ridiculous. Although I definitely don't think she should have slept with Dr. Pascal (the bald guy?!), I can understand why she did it. Frasier wasn't really there for her as much as he should have. I mean, watch the show. He was at Cheers practically every waking moment. And the jabs that Frasier and the gang made at her had to hurt her self-esteem. I don't think she was being cold-hearted in any way. She still cared about Frasier, and she didn't mean to hurt him. She was just at a point in her life where she was feeling under-appreciated and I guess Dr. Pascal made her feel wanted (even if he did turn out to be a complete wacko). Anyway, I absolutely agree with B that Lilith was misunderstood, and the end of Frasier and Lilith's marriage was mis-written.

By the way, Frasier and Lilith MUST get back together at the end of "Frasier"! (Sorry, I just had to say that.)

I totally agree with everything that you and B said. Lilith by the time she left Frasier was so mis-written but at the same time Frasier had lost touch with Lilith emotionally, this was highlighted in the episode "One Hugs, The Other Dosen't" when Frasier can't seem to comprehend why Lilith is so jealous of Nanny G, earlier in their relationship he would have understood.

I also agree that Frasier and Lilith ABSOULTLY MUST get together by the end of "Frasier".

rebeccasbiotch · 07-13-2002, 02:41 AM

Eco-pod? What is it?

NaughtyStephieGirl · 07-13-2002, 05:04 PM

An eco-pod (Dr. Pascal's claim to fame) is "a self contained subterranean environment which will serve as a prototype for an eventual space station." Or, as Frasier puts it, "this ridiculous bubble underground."

Fonz327 · 07-13-2002, 10:43 PM

Lilith was a very unique individual, even when mad, she still uses a distinct monotone voice.

Sara Micelli · 08-01-2002, 03:24 PM

I think she was miswritten and misunderstood.

BrassyBebeBabe · 08-01-2002, 04:30 PM

Lilith was definately misunderstood. I found her refreshing. She was completely different than the other characters....even different from Diane and Frasier, who were the other intellects. Who wants a room full of people who are alike. She was a dynamic character, and Bebe brought her to life with her unique portrayal of her. I don't think that Lilith would have been successful if another actress played her. It was all about the right people at the right time.

07-12-2002, 06:39 PM	#1
Brian Damage I'm Rich Bitch Forum Icon Join Date: Feb 03, 2002 Location: What Ain't No Country I Ever Heard Of...They Speak English in What? Posts: 63,107	Was Lilith selfish or misunderstood? One of my favorite characters is Frasier Crane. In the episode where he discovers Lilith's infidelity, I was never able to look at her character the same way again. She callously stomped on his heart and walked away from her son. Don't forget she also slept with Frasier's brother Niles.(I know they were already divorced, but it was still wrong) I can't help but see her as selfish and coldhearted. Am I right or was she misunderstood?(Probably mis-written)
	__________________ The Key to the Kingdom of Heaven: John 3:3 *Money Doesn't Buy Happiness...But I'd Rather Cry in My Private Jet*

07-12-2002, 11:09 PM	#4
Dr. Lilith Sternin Ice Cube in Heels Forum Regular Join Date: Jan 31, 2002 Posts: 523	I feel the character was completely mis-written by the show's end. However, I feel Bebe brought a certain vulnerablity and warmth to the character despite the crappy material she was dealt. She made Lilith the "misunderstood" character. There was little to be desired by the end of Lilith and Frasier's marriage, and I can see how Lilith was feeling neglected. She said straight out to him... "I need a husband, not a psychiatrist." Instead of just being there for her, he had to psychoanalyze her every move. Trying to justify why she would cheat on him, for example. The fact was, there was no justification, and Lilith was aware. I don't think she was pleased by her decision, and I don't think she was cold hearted about it. The problem was, she always came across as being so strong that I think Frasier took advantage of that, ultimately not providing the nurturing their marriage obviously needed. Frasier was not always kind to Lilith either. He was constantly giving her little digs and whether or not it was all in "good fun," it would hurt any woman after a while. Anyway, I don't see her as cold hearted or selfish... she left Frasier because she thought she had found in Pascal what Frasier wasn't providing her. He was completely devoted to Lilith (and psychotic, yes... so mostly it was obsession). He probably made Lilith feel important, and maybe she just needed that at that time. Also, she was going to stay even though she told Frasier she would spend the rest of her days miserable... she was willing to do that for Frasier -- he almost made her! I don't think that constitutes as being cold-hearted or selfish. It was selfish on Frasier's part for even considering making her stay when she was obviously miserable. We all make mistakes and she shouldn't have slept with Pascal. However, no one looks at it from Lilith's POV... Rebecca even remarked during that episode. "What about Lilith?" She didn't just maliciously sleep with the man to hurt Frasier. She was trying to fill an empty void. As for sleeping with Niles... again with the vulnerablity. Her femininity was being threatened. She had just been dumped by her husband and she just wanted to... feel wanted. Niles was there and in the same place. She really didn't do anything wrong. Some ex-wife/ex-husbands end up marrying their ex-spouses brother or sister! Frasier and Lilith had been divorced for many a year and she was right... they're both adults. She obviously felt bad about it though... she didn't want Frasier to find out! In conclusion, I feel Lilith is just misunderstood and yes, mis-written. She's not a cold-hearted, calculating bitch. She has a soft side as much as she'd like to hide it. Whew... I like to run my mouth (or in this case, fingers).
	__________________ "Musical theatre -- it's totally American and when it's good, it's like nothing else." ~Bebe Neuwirth </center> Lilith: I mapped out our dominant and recessive traits on a genome square, applied Mendel's laws, allowed for anomolies, and concluded that you are the best biological choice. Frasier: I see. Well, enticed as I am by your honeyed words, I'm gonna need some kissin'. Lilith: Frasier, don't misunderstand. I'm not proposing any change in our relationship. Frasier: Would we sleep together? Lilith: I thought we'd freeze your sperm. Frasier: Is that a yes or a no? Lilith: Natural fertilization isn't practical. I'd have to fly to Seattle every time I ovulate. Frasier: Right, okay. So then, your plan is for me to visit some local doctor, freeze my essence, and then bring it home with you. Lilith: Correct. I'll take mine to go! Last edited by Dr. Lilith Sternin; 07-12-2002 at 11:17 PM.

07-12-2002, 11:47 PM	#5
NaughtyStephieGirl Member Occasional Poster Join Date: Jul 12, 2002 Location: My tastefully decorated townhouse.... Posts: 5	I totally agree with everything B said. I think the whole affair thing was completely mis-written. I don't think Lilith would have ever left her child to go live in some Eco-pod. That whole thing was ridiculous. Although I definitely don't think she should have slept with Dr. Pascal (the bald guy?!), I can understand why she did it. Frasier wasn't really there for her as much as he should have. I mean, watch the show. He was at Cheers practically every waking moment. And the jabs that Frasier and the gang made at her had to hurt her self-esteem. I don't think she was being cold-hearted in any way. She still cared about Frasier, and she didn't mean to hurt him. She was just at a point in her life where she was feeling under-appreciated and I guess Dr. Pascal made her feel wanted (even if he did turn out to be a complete wacko). Anyway, I absolutely agree with B that Lilith was misunderstood, and the end of Frasier and Lilith's marriage was mis-written. By the way, Frasier and Lilith MUST get back together at the end of "Frasier"! (Sorry, I just had to say that.)
	__________________ <font color='purple'> <p align='left'> <text> -Naughty Stephie <b>Frasier:</b> I want to take you now by the dip. <b>Lilith:</b> You impulsive man, we have guests coming. <b>Frasier:</b> Yes, I know. It'll be our little joke on them. Every time they say the word "dip" we will become giddy with remembrance. The word itself will become a syllable filled with our overwhelming passion. <b>Lilith:</b> Dear, you are using sex to express your aggression toward the confines of polite society. <b>Frasier:</b> Dip. <b>Lilith:</b> I love that! <b>pulls him in for a kiss</b>

07-13-2002, 10:43 PM	#9
Fonz327 Member Occasional Poster Join Date: Jul 12, 2002 Location: Georgia Posts: 30	Lilith was a very unique individual, even when mad, she still uses a distinct monotone voice.
	__________________ Goodbye grey sky, hello blue. There's nothing can hold me when I hold you. Feels so right, it can't be wrong. Rockin' and rollin' all week long.

08-01-2002, 03:24 PM	#10
Sara Micelli Member Forum 3000 Club Member Join Date: Jun 14, 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 3,122	I think she was miswritten and misunderstood.
	__________________ Formerly popcornperson2002. Some people come into our lives and quickly go.Some stay for a while and leave footprints on our hearts. And we are never,ever the same-source unknown. "Suicide sometimes proceeds from cowardice, but not always; for cowardice sometimes prevents it; since as many live because they are afraid to die, as die because they are afraid to live" -Charles Caleb Colton

07-12-2002, 09:27 PM	#2
Central Perk ~~~~~ Forum 4000 Club Member Join Date: Jan 10, 2002 Posts: 4,553	Hmm they made her not that well written because she through a major fit over when Frasier wrote the letter about Rebecca...so I doubt she would do anything like that for real...I still like her though...but feel bad for Frasier..

07-12-2002, 10:54 PM	#3
TALLguyinKY Member Senior Member Join Date: Mar 18, 2002 Posts: 1,439	I think she was misunderstood, and Rebecca gave some valid reasons why. And I truly feel she is sincere when she deeply regrets and resents what she did. But yeah, I wish the writers hadn't done that---I hated 'em at the time.

07-13-2002, 02:41 AM	#7
rebeccasbiotch Member Occasional Poster Join Date: Apr 30, 2002 Location: Kentucky :P Posts: 16	Eco-pod? What is it?

07-13-2002, 05:04 PM	#8
NaughtyStephieGirl Member Occasional Poster Join Date: Jul 12, 2002 Location: My tastefully decorated townhouse.... Posts: 5	An eco-pod (Dr. Pascal's claim to fame) is "a self contained subterranean environment which will serve as a prototype for an eventual space station." Or, as Frasier puts it, "this ridiculous bubble underground."

08-01-2002, 04:30 PM	#11
BrassyBebeBabe DuchessHomemadeSin Occasional Poster Join Date: Jul 28, 2002 Posts: 92	Lilith was definately misunderstood. I found her refreshing. She was completely different than the other characters....even different from Diane and Frasier, who were the other intellects. Who wants a room full of people who are alike. She was a dynamic character, and Bebe brought her to life with her unique portrayal of her. I don't think that Lilith would have been successful if another actress played her. It was all about the right people at the right time.