Norman Ladner case revisited. Murder, accident, or suicide?

[XCalibur]

I hadn't seen an extensive thread on this case in awhile, it remains intriguing and unsolved to this day so I felt even if there was a thread on it from way back, I felt the case was well worth revisiting and a new thread.

I'm on the fence, lean towards the idea he was murdered.

But what struck me about this segment, is that no one really tried to establish or discuss a possible motive for suicide. If teenagers commit suicide, the primary reasons are usually bullying at school or a breakup with a girl or boy. In Norman's case, his social life or school life were never discussed, so we don't really know if there was a strong motive there or if either applied to him. In fact little about Norman's personality or life was discussed at all, except that he loved the outdoors which is not much to go on.

Though I have always leaned towards him being murdered, I find it somewhat strange the parents never tried to make the argument that he was not depressed or anything, leading me to think that there might have been something there they didn't want to discuss. Despite loving the outdoors, Norman didn't look like an overly masculine or jock type, leading me to believe there may have been bullying at school. I would have also been interested to know if there was a breakup with a girl. I'd have to say at least 80% of teenage suicides are because of one of the two. And it should have been a fairly simple matter to talk with Norman's friends at school and see if he had a girlfriend who broke up with him or a love interest who had rejected him, but this was never even addressed, which is unusual for murder or suicide segments.

The segment focused mostly on the physical evidence, and the possible drug dealer angle. And even that was rather vague.

I do think the sheriff in the episode was extremely unlikeable though. As far as I can tell he never even entertained the possibility of murder, and his arguments were weak.

Of course, its impossible to say for sure. But as someone who owns rifles, I can say that accidents with them are not very common as people not familiar with guns seem to think. They simply don't fire that easily. Nor are they the ideal weapon for suicide. And then there is the allegation that the bullets were tampered with. But i would have to say the odds of a bullet being in the ground in the exact spot where Norman died not involved with the crime seems like a million to one shot.

I have other thoughts too, but I will leave room for counterpoints and conversation, what is the board consensus on this one?

[unsolved88]

Originally Posted by XCalibur

I hadn't seen an extensive thread on this case in awhile, it remains intriguing and unsolved to this day so I felt even if there was a thread on it from way back, I felt the case was well worth revisiting and a new thread.

I'm on the fence, lean towards the idea he was murdered.

But what struck me about this segment, is that no one really tried to establish or discuss a possible motive for suicide. If teenagers commit suicide, the primary reasons are usually bullying at school or a breakup with a girl or boy. In Norman's case, his social life or school life were never discussed, so we don't really know if there was a strong motive there or if either applied to him. In fact little about Norman's personality or life was discussed at all, except that he loved the outdoors which is not much to go on.

Though I have always leaned towards him being murdered, I find it somewhat strange the parents never tried to make the argument that he was not depressed or anything, leading me to think that there might have been something there they didn't want to discuss. Despite loving the outdoors, Norman didn't look like an overly masculine or jock type, leading me to believe there may have been bullying at school. I would have also been interested to know if there was a breakup with a girl. I'd have to say at least 80% of teenage suicides are because of one of the two. And it should have been a fairly simple matter to talk with Norman's friends at school and see if he had a girlfriend who broke up with him or a love interest who had rejected him, but this was never even addressed, which is unusual for murder or suicide segments.

The segment focused mostly on the physical evidence, and the possible drug dealer angle. And even that was rather vague.

I do think the sheriff in the episode was extremely unlikeable though. As far as I can tell he never even entertained the possibility of murder, and his arguments were weak.

Of course, its impossible to say for sure. But as someone who owns rifles, I can say that accidents with them are not very common as people not familiar with guns seem to think. They simply don't fire that easily. Nor are they the ideal weapon for suicide. And then there is the allegation that the bullets were tampered with. But i would have to say the odds of a bullet being in the ground in the exact spot where Norman died not involved with the crime seems like a million to one shot.

I have other thoughts too, but I will leave room for counterpoints and conversation, what is the board consensus on this one?

I’m kind of on the fence too and I can’t really lean one way or the other. But I always found it interesting that Norman’s mother said that she and her husband initially accepted the ruling of an accident. It was when the ruling was changed to suicide that they began finding all this evidence of murder.

And I’m not convinced that the exchange between the mother and the mysterious man where a veiled threat was made actually took place.

[freakbook]

.

[marlins3]

Originally Posted by unsolved88

I’m kind of on the fence too and I can’t really lean one way or the other. But I always found it interesting that Norman’s mother said that she and her husband initially accepted the ruling of an accident. It was when the ruling was changed to suicide that they began finding all this evidence of murder.

And I’m not convinced that the exchange between the mother and the mysterious man where a veiled threat was made actually took place.

I don't doubt that an exchange took place between some mysterious man (possibly connected to law enforcement) and Mrs. Ladner. However, I do believe she possibly misread the exchange. Emotions were high so anything said could be interpreted in a different manner than intended. I know people who act like every conversation that isn't 100% joyful is in some way a threat (or they suspect everybody has some type of bad motive).

All in all, I feel Ladner was murdered and it had something to do with drugs (not him dealing...but Norman stumbling across a drug transaction of some sort).

[justins5256]

Originally Posted by XCalibur

I hadn't seen an extensive thread on this case in awhile, it remains intriguing and unsolved to this day so I felt even if there was a thread on it from way back, I felt the case was well worth revisiting and a new thread.

I'm on the fence, lean towards the idea he was murdered.

But what struck me about this segment, is that no one really tried to establish or discuss a possible motive for suicide. If teenagers commit suicide, the primary reasons are usually bullying at school or a breakup with a girl or boy. In Norman's case, his social life or school life were never discussed, so we don't really know if there was a strong motive there or if either applied to him. In fact little about Norman's personality or life was discussed at all, except that he loved the outdoors which is not much to go on.

Though I have always leaned towards him being murdered, I find it somewhat strange the parents never tried to make the argument that he was not depressed or anything, leading me to think that there might have been something there they didn't want to discuss. Despite loving the outdoors, Norman didn't look like an overly masculine or jock type, leading me to believe there may have been bullying at school. I would have also been interested to know if there was a breakup with a girl. I'd have to say at least 80% of teenage suicides are because of one of the two. And it should have been a fairly simple matter to talk with Norman's friends at school and see if he had a girlfriend who broke up with him or a love interest who had rejected him, but this was never even addressed, which is unusual for murder or suicide segments.

The segment focused mostly on the physical evidence, and the possible drug dealer angle. And even that was rather vague.

I do think the sheriff in the episode was extremely unlikeable though. As far as I can tell he never even entertained the possibility of murder, and his arguments were weak.

Of course, its impossible to say for sure. But as someone who owns rifles, I can say that accidents with them are not very common as people not familiar with guns seem to think. They simply don't fire that easily. Nor are they the ideal weapon for suicide. And then there is the allegation that the bullets were tampered with. But i would have to say the odds of a bullet being in the ground in the exact spot where Norman died not involved with the crime seems like a million to one shot.

I have other thoughts too, but I will leave room for counterpoints and conversation, what is the board consensus on this one?

I think that Norman Ladner committed suicide.

The motive is a mystery. However, as you alluded, we are told next to nothing about Norman as a person. Pretty much just that he liked the woods and that he was in high school. So, it's hard to determine exactly what was going on in his life at that point that may have been a stressor. Moreover, when we think of people who commit suicide, sometimes there are identifiable stressors and triggers, but sometimes there are not. Suicide is a very personal act. So, it's entirely plausible that Norman may have been struggling with some demons that nobody, or very few people, knew about. Either way, I don't see the lack of a motive for suicide as evidence of murder.

The unusual bullet - we don't know where it came from. We don't what that land was used for. It's entirely possible that other people used the land to hunt. The bullet could be from an old kill of an animal. Maybe Norman himself killed at animal at that precise spot with a different weapon (maybe that precise location had some significance to him). We just don't know. But I don't see it as obvious evidence of murder.

The man at the funeral home - I think this conversation likely did take place, but I don't find the comments indicative of a murder or coverup conspiracy. First, assuming that there was a coverup, what are the odds that this guy who had knowledge of it would just happen to be at the funeral home to relay this message? Was he just there for another matter, saw Mrs. Ladner by chance, and delivered this message? Was he sent to deliver this message? It's just too strange. I think it's entirely possible that the guy overheard some of the Ladners’ conversations with the funeral home folks and was either trying to console Mrs. Ladner and she took it the wrong way (you have other kids, you need to worry about them) or he was just a kook.

The radio - like the bullet, we don't know enough here. I've read a newspaper article that suggested a police theory that the radio was some kind of device used for weather observation and tracking. Still pretty vague. But I would still argue we don't know if other people used that land for other purposes, we don't know how long this device had been there, and so on.

The drug angle - I see the evidence for this as pretty thin. And honestly, it's a common UM scapegoat. How many other people were killed by drug dealers they just happened upon? Scott Johnson, Jeffrey Digmin, and Cindy Anderson come to mind. What are the odds that drug dealers would be using this plot of land for their business and that Norman would stumble upon it? There was no evidence of anyone else being there aside from the radio device, the purpose of which is unknown.

I think Occam's Razor applies so easily in this case, and I think it points us to the correct conclusion. The known facts suggest suicide. The rest is just speculation that ultimately involve too many other parties and variables that it's just not very likely.

[TheCars1986]

Originally Posted by XCalibur

But what struck me about this segment, is that no one really tried to establish or discuss a possible motive for suicide.

That does not shock me at all. It's essential UM. Leave out important details, and present the family member's perspective and version of events as objective fact. Make law enforcement, if interviewed, seem as cold as possible and suspicious when possible. Wash. Rinse. Repeat.

I have never thought that Norman Ladner was murdered. Nor have I ever believed that his mother was approached by someone at the funeral home who told her something to the effect of, "your son is dead, move on." True Crime shows, like UM, have done a massive disservice (and continue to do so) for their downplaying of mental illness and/or complete ignoring of it. We know that Norman liked the outdoors and that his father found some radio equipment and a bullet in the woods. Then the segment heavily implies that he was murdered after stumbling on a drug deal, of which no evidence was presented.

I lean towards an accident, but would not rule out suicide. There's just not enough information to say 100% certainty either way. But I do not believe he was murdered.

His mother says that Norman would come home between 7-7:30 p.m., but that she began to become worried about him when he wasn't home by 7. That's always been an interesting remark to me.

[justins5256]

Originally Posted by TheCars1986

That does not shock me at all. It's essential UM. Leave out important details, and present the family member's perspective and version of events as objective fact. Make law enforcement, if interviewed, seem as cold as possible and suspicious when possible. Wash. Rinse. Repeat.

Agreed. It's even more questionable in cases like Ladner's where there is virtually no information about the case outside of the segment itself.

Originally Posted by TheCars1986

I lean towards an accident, but would not rule out suicide. There's just not enough information to say 100% certainty either way. But I do not believe he was murdered.

I understand and appreciate what you're saying, but I doubt it was an accident. I thought the coroner determined that Norman was standing when the shot was fired. If that's true, it's just really hard for me to envision a scenario in which he would accidentally discharge that bulky awkward weapon and get a clean and fatal shot through the temple like he did. Granted, I'm not a ballistics expert, and yes, accidents happen, but he would have to be pretty damn unlucky.

Also, I would imagine that his hands were checked for gunshot residue (GSR). Usually this is indicative that he fired the gun himself. We aren't told whether this was done. However, if it was, it was what probably tipped the scale toward suicide.

My best guess is that the police initially thought this was an accident upon inspecting the scene. But, when the autopsy was done, the coroner ruled suicide due to the nature of the wound, the fact that he was standing, and the (likely) presence of GSR.

Originally Posted by TheCars1986

His mother says that Norman would come home between 7-7:30 p.m., but that she began to become worried about him when he wasn't home by 7. That's always been an interesting remark to me.

His father said Norman was punctual and you could almost set a clock by him.

Personally, I always found the statements by the parents about their initial acceptance of an accident as telling. It's like they were "okay" with it until suicide was suggested. The sheriff said this as well.

[XCalibur]

Originally Posted by justins5256

I think that Norman Ladner committed suicide.

The motive is a mystery. However, as you alluded, we are told next to nothing about Norman as a person. Pretty much just that he liked the woods and that he was in high school. So, it's hard to determine exactly what was going on in his life at that point that may have been a stressor. Moreover, when we think of people who commit suicide, sometimes there are identifiable stressors and triggers, but sometimes there are not. Suicide is a very personal act. So, it's entirely plausible that Norman may have been struggling with some demons that nobody, or very few people, knew about. Either way, I don't see the lack of a motive for suicide as evidence of murder.

The unusual bullet - we don't know where it came from. We don't what that land was used for. It's entirely possible that other people used the land to hunt. The bullet could be from an old kill of an animal. Maybe Norman himself killed at animal at that precise spot with a different weapon (maybe that precise location had some significance to him). We just don't know. But I don't see it as obvious evidence of murder.

The man at the funeral home - I think this conversation likely did take place, but I don't find the comments indicative of a murder or coverup conspiracy. First, assuming that there was a coverup, what are the odds that this guy who had knowledge of it would just happen to be at the funeral home to relay this message? Was he just there for another matter, saw Mrs. Ladner by chance, and delivered this message? Was he sent to deliver this message? It's just too strange. I think it's entirely possible that the guy overheard some of the Ladners’ conversations with the funeral home folks and was either trying to console Mrs. Ladner and she took it the wrong way (you have other kids, you need to worry about them) or he was just a kook.

The radio - like the bullet, we don't know enough here. I've read a newspaper article that suggested a police theory that the radio was some kind of device used for weather observation and tracking. Still pretty vague. But I would still argue we don't know if other people used that land for other purposes, we don't know how long this device had been there, and so on.

The drug angle - I see the evidence for this as pretty thin. And honestly, it's a common UM scapegoat. How many other people were killed by drug dealers they just happened upon? Scott Johnson, Jeffrey Digmin, and Cindy Anderson come to mind. What are the odds that drug dealers would be using this plot of land for their business and that Norman would stumble upon it? There was no evidence of anyone else being there aside from the radio device, the purpose of which is unknown.

I think Occam's Razor applies so easily in this case, and I think it points us to the correct conclusion. The known facts suggest suicide. The rest is just speculation that ultimately involve too many other parties and variables that it's just not very likely.

How do you explain the bullet found at the scene that didn't match his rifle?

Although I don't discount suicide, I simply don't think there is enough information to prove it either.

As for the encounter at the coroner's office, you just about have to call Norman's mother a straight up liar to really not believe it. I don't see how she could have misinterpreted what he said either. But even so, we still don't know exactly what was said.

Teenagers don't just commit suicide for no reason. Without more info, it just seems to me like its just speculation.

[TheCars1986]

Originally Posted by justins5256

I understand and appreciate what you're saying, but I doubt it was an accident. I thought the coroner determined that Norman was standing when the shot was fired. If that's true, it's just really hard for me to envision a scenario in which he would accidentally discharge that bulky awkward weapon and get a clean and fatal shot through the temple like he did. Granted, I'm not a ballistics expert, and yes, accidents happen, but he would have to be pretty damn unlucky.

I didn't believe the accident until I saw the Don Hamilton segment for the first time. Granted, Hamilton was shot in the leg and Norman in the head, but there was also a 1" cut that was found on the crown of Norman's head. Also, the investigators initially believed that he had fallen out of the tree and the gun discharged. I would imagine that the gun being found some distance away from his body is what made them believe this. If Norman was standing and shot himself in the temple, he would have fallen forward or backwards. IMO, it seems more likely that if he was in a tree and dropped the gun which shot him, his fall from the tree would correspond with the cut on the crown of his head.

Originally Posted by justins5256

Also, I would imagine that his hands were checked for gunshot residue (GSR). Usually this is indicative that he fired the gun himself. We aren't told whether this was done. However, if it was, it was what probably tipped the scale toward suicide.

Accident, suicide, or murder, GSR being found on his hands is inconclusive. Because if it was an accident or murder, he took his rifle with him that day. He could have gone target practicing or hunting prior to his death.

Originally Posted by justins5256

Personally, I always found the statements by the parents about their initial acceptance of an accident as telling. It's like they were "okay" with it until suicide was suggested. The sheriff said this as well.

I have no doubt that if this case was featured on the revamped UM, that there would be a lot more information that would come to light about this case (just like what is happening with Rey Rivera right now) and we could have a much clearer picture of what happened.

[spectre]

Originally Posted by marlins3

All in all, I feel Ladner was murdered and it had something to do with drugs (not him dealing...but Norman stumbling across a drug transaction of some sort).

I’m inclined to agree with this scenario🤓

On another thread I recall Alcazar (seehttps://www.sitcomsonline.com/boards...80#post4793280) sleuthing out with success a couple of news articles on a similar case Unsolved Mysteries referenced in its profile of the unexplained deaths of Don Henry and Kevin Ives of the nearly identical deaths of Billy Don Hainline and Dennis Decker in Hodgen, OK, in 1984 (seehttps://oklahoman.com/article/211543...-over-by-train and https://oklahoman.com/article/222690...ects-1984-case).

It’s noted in the articles Sheriff Hurley’s belief was the bodies of both boys’ were deliberately placed on the railway tracks and their deaths were connected to drug cartels: “A month after the bodies of Hainline and Decker were discovered, a clandestine methamphetamine laboratory was discovered 1 1/2 miles north of the tracks. ‘That place is a haven for marijuana growers and crank labs,’ Hurley said.” Even DA Edelstein alluded similarly stating: “It is not uncommon in the drug industry for the people that don't play ball to be eliminated.”

So, in my opinion, it wouldn't surprise me if the unexplained deaths in 1984, OK of Haineline and Decker; and then in 1987 AR of Henry and Ives; and then in 1989 MS of Ladner, were all drug related. And it's definitely possible, even probable, by all accounts that drug cartels were operating heavily at the time in all of these neighboring states of OK, AR, MS.

Incidentally browsing the comments on https://unsolved.com/gallery/norman-ladner/ there’s some obscure references to the Ladner’s business being deliberately destroyed possibly by a bomb planted under Charlette Ladner’s car, unless they’re two different events; and I read elsewhere online Norman’s missing drivers license was allegedly discovered in New York a few years after his death, which raises suspicions again🤨

Originally Posted by justins5256

Personally, I always found the statements by the parents about their initial acceptance of an accident as telling. It's like they were "okay" with it until suicide was suggested. The sheriff said this as well.

Their response to either possibility doesn't raise eyebrows for me since an accidental death is totally different to suicide🤔 The former verdict doesn't impute motive or blame to the victim whereas the latter does. And reports from both family and friends the there was no solid reason to suspect suicide.

[MegtheEgg86]

Suicide, conditionally.

https://www.sitcomsonline.com/boards...=147839&page=8

Post #113. Blood splatter was found on Norman's left hand. The round traveled right to left through his head, and left powder burns around the entrance wound (evidence that the end of the barrel was held at extremely close range--inches or less). Provided that he was right-handed, his left hand almost certainly steadied the barrel of the rifle. Admittedly, I don't know what his handedness actually was, but given that right-handedness is more common I'm comfortable presuming that's what Norman had until I have evidence to the contrary.

Also, the wound on the vertex of the head is simply described as "recent." It could have happened several days before his death, for all we know.

[MegtheEgg86]

Originally Posted by marlins3

I don't doubt that an exchange took place between some mysterious man (possibly connected to law enforcement) and Mrs. Ladner. However, I do believe she possibly misread the exchange. Emotions were high so anything said could be interpreted in a different manner than intended.

Same. I think it happened. Perhaps the man was attempting to be helpful in a let's-reorient-to-reality sort of way, and Mrs. Ladner misinterpreted his meaning.

[MegtheEgg86]

And finally, on rifles "not being an ideal weapon for suicide"--I used to think that myself. Then I started work at a Level I trauma center. People attempt suicide with rifles quite frequently. They'll use just about any firearm available to them.

[marlins3]

Originally Posted by MegtheEgg86

And finally, on rifles "not being an ideal weapon for suicide"--I used to think that myself. Then I started work at a Level I trauma center. People attempt suicide with rifles quite frequently. They'll use just about any firearm available to them.

I don't think that's the case with Norman. It seemed as though he likely would have had access to several different types of guns. Did they say the type of rifle he carried?

[marlins3]

A gun shot through the temple via accidental discharge (especially if he fell out of a tree) would be EXTREMELY unlikely under any circumstance.