Arson King WTF?

[Guardian]

Okay, I live in the Seattle area and I recall when this was going on (vaguely, I was a kid at the time). I recall at the time the investigators on local news basically echoing what was said in the UM segment: that an extremely volatile accelerant was used in these fires. I have never heard that it was ever publicly stated what the accelerant was. But I have heard some knowledgeable folks theorize that it may have been thermite.

I don't know a thing about demolitions or chemistry, but as I understand it, thermite can be made from several readily accessible materials by someone who knows what they are doing.

The UM segment currently on Amazon has a text note at the end which says it is still debated as to if the fires were an accident or arson. However, I recall in the Farina version of this segment (I think, although it could have been a cold case files or something like it), they mentioned a string of arsons across the country which they believe were linked to this case as they were running in a fairly direct line across the country and it was believed the same accelerant was used in each case.

I guess where I am left wondering "WTF?" is how can this possibly be considered to be an accident at all? Kids playing with matches, an electrical fire, or even transients trying to keep warm by setting a small fire that got out of control, do not burn with that type of heat and intensity to literally boil concrete. It just isn't possible without a pretty potent accelerant.

Anyone have any thoughts or insight on this case?

[SarcasticBella]

I do remember officials in that episode saying that they were not going to release ingredients as they were all common household items. It was also mentioned that this was someone who obviously knew what they were doing, and may have had a background in engineering.

[SertumAEnigmA]

I doubt It would be thermite as it would be traceable and really only works in small quantities. The only way one could make a homemade version would require magnesium strips which would be traceable as well, considering that the only reason you would need it is for welding steel or to ignite a bomb.

[Guardian]

I don't know that thermite is what was used, I just recall hearing that discussed at some point. May not have been used at all.

In any case, it sounded like they had quite a bit of evidence pointing to it being arson with a mixed chemical of some sort. A chemical it would take a good bit of know how to make according to what was said about it. That is a far cry from hobos setting a small fire to try to keep warm. That was my point.

I see that like saying police found a body shot 17 times in the head but only a 6 shot revolver was found at the scene. But they can't decide if it's suicide or murder.

I'm not at all sure what the reason would be, but I almost wonder if there isn't some kind of cover up with this. String of arsons in a line across the country all thought to be using a specially mixed substance that takes special knowledge to know how to mix, yet they can't decide if it's arson or accidental? That just sets off BS alarms to me.

I can't think of a single reason for a cover up, but something doesn't add up here.

[SertumAEnigmA]

Well a serial arsonist was caught for setting over 100 fires around the same span and a later investigation said no accelerants were used is the featured fires?

It was a carpet warehouse and lumber yard. Chemicals and many things used to treat either material would make it rather intense. With that said and a serial arsonist operating in the area, sometimes folks jump the gun. It would be interesting to view actual reports. Fire science and investigation is a controversial subject.

[Guardian]

Originally Posted by SertumAEnigmA

Well a serial arsonist was caught for setting over 100 fires around the same span and a later investigation said no accelerants were used is the featured fires?

It was a carpet warehouse and lumber yard. Chemicals and many things used to treat either material would make it rather intense. With that said and a serial arsonist operating in the area, sometimes folks jump the gun. It would be interesting to view actual reports. Fire science and investigation is a controversial subject.

True. But they seemed very certain, especially after running their controlled burn tests. And I would think the first thing they would look at would be what chemicals were on hand when the fire broke out. I don't know. Whole thing just seems fishy to me. I don't know what the end game would be for any type of cover up, but it just looks like they back peddled a bit afterwards. But who knows? Maybe the original investigations were just sloppy

[SertumAEnigmA]

Originally Posted by Guardian

True. But they seemed very certain, especially after running their controlled burn tests. And I would think the first thing they would look at would be what chemicals were on hand when the fire broke out. I don't know. Whole thing just seems fishy to me. I don't know what the end game would be for any type of cover up, but it just looks like they back peddled a bit afterwards. But who knows? Maybe the original investigations were just sloppy

Well I think you're onto something and I agree that it's not a cover up. Look at it this way, firefighters died. I think that played a role. No ordinary fire could kill such experienced men. It's not uncommon when it comes to folks like firefighters, police officers and soldiers that when they are killed in the line of duty some denial or skewed perception can take effect.

I don't think it's intentional. It's like suicides or when a neighbor does something horrible. Sometimes for the survivors it's hard to believe that someone experienced, trained or highly skilled would get killed by something ordinary or routine. But no matter the situation or how prepared we are talking one second too slow or too fast can get you killed. Sometimes the most training or experience cannot change something unpredictable. These guys had to have thought their brothers done this one thousand times before or trained for this before, so it could be no ordinary fire.

Sad thing is, it may have been but if a good guy or the best dies it's really unreal. That's why it's sometimes good to look at the original reports when available. With a serial arsonist in the area and when heroes die, that person investigating may already be biased or factoring things that might not exist.

[justins5256]

Were there any other fires attributed to this guy aside from what was mentioned on UM or did the speculation die when they started saying the fires could be accidental?

[Axl Rose]

Blackstock Fire Wasn't Arson -- New Probe Makes Different Finding

The Blackstock Lumber Co. fire that killed firefighter Lt. Matthew Johnson and injured another in September 1989, was not arson after all, the Seattle Fire Department says.

Investigators now say the cause is undetermined.

The department's fire-investigation unit re-investigated the fire, and has withdrawn its finding that the blaze was started by someone using chemicals, Georgia Taylor, Seattle Fire Department information officer, said today. The investigation unit has not, however, reclassified the fire as accidental, Taylor said.

"The conclusion that it was arson and started with the use of those high-temperature accelerant chemicals was based on the information investigators had available at that time," Taylor said.

Recently, investigators have found new information, including the possibility that a quantity of lumber was stored in the building and may have helped to boost the temperature of the fire. Investigators also found that a 440-volt electrical line was still linked to a power panel and may have been the source of sparks. High heat and sparks are characteristics of what are known as high-temperature accelerant fires, HTAs.

"That new information came to light and they re-evaluated their findings," Taylor said.

A new report that includes a review of 25 fires thought to be HTA fires is being prepared by Steve Carman, a division agent with the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms.

Bill Dietz, director of the forensic division of the ATF laboratory near San Francisco has worked with Carman in research for the still uncompleted report.

"Carman has shown that there is not sufficient evidence to conclude that all of the 25 fires reported to be HTA are proven, that there is the possibility of alternative methods of those being started," Dietz said.

Carman does not say absolutely they are not high-temperature accelerant fires, Dietz added.

Darrell Johnson, father of the fallen firefighter, said he thinks the claims of arson and high-temperature accelerants in the Blackstock fire were used by the fire department to cover up it's inability to determine the true cause of the fire and divert attention from how the department fought the Blackstock fire. The Seattle Fire Department was criticized and fined by the state for how it tracked firefighters battling the Blackstock fire.

http://community.seattletimes.nwsour...2&slug=2106427