A Few Observations

[LittleRickyII]

I'm still watching the show here and there. It's more of a curiosity than anything. But a few things I've noticed:

o As I mentioned in another thread, the rather abrupt transition to the second format: The last two episodes of the first season show public relations guy, Joey Barnes, become a brand-new TV star. What's left unexplained is how this happened. How was he discovered? He's being given his own show on NBC. Why would NBC pull this guy out of obscurity, with no apparent experience as a performer, and give him his own national show?

o In the last episode of the 1st season Joey is still living with his family in Los Angeles and doing his new TV show from there. But in the first episode of the 2nd season, he's all of a sudden living in a Manhattan apartment and his show broadcasts from New York. No explanation provided about this transition.

o During the first season there is a woman, Barbara Wilson, whom Joey is dating. It's apparently a serious relationship by the end of the season because Joey uses the "L" word -- love. It looks like this is the character they were planning to make his wife in season 2. But S2 began and Barbara Wilson was nowhere to be seen, and all of a sudden Joey is already married to Ellie in the very first episode of S2. No explanation of what happened to Barbara or why he's suddenly newly married to Ellie. Where did Barbara go and where did Ellie come from? Also, Barbara Wilson was played by Nancy Hadley throughout the first season, until the last episode when the character is all of a sudden played by Patricia Blair. And that turns out to be Blair's last episode, and she's replaced by Abby Dalton as Ellie as soon as S2 begins. So were Nancy Hadley and Patricia Blair part of the long parade of people Joey Bishop fired?

o In several episodes in the first season, Joe Besser appears as Joey's Los Angeles neighbor, Mr. Jillson, who works as a mailman. When S2 begins, Joe Besser is back as Mr. Jillson, but Mr. Jillson is all of a sudden living in Joey's Manhattan apartment building and working as a janitor. No explanation of how or why he goes from being a Los Angeles mailman to a Manhattan janitor.

o Something I never noticed before, but Corbett Monica appears in an early S2 episode NOT as Larry, but as some guy named Johnny. And there he is alongside Guy Marks, whom he would be replacing later that season. Such an odd thing that seemed to occur in a lot of '60s sitcoms -- same actor playing more than one character. It's a bit confusing in this case because Larry would be a regular character so soon after this episode with Corbett Monica where he's not playing Johnny. I wonder if Guy Marks sensed at this point what was about to happen to him? I prefer Guy Marks. His character seems more sedate and normal than the always hyper Larry. Marks seemed to be well received by viewers and critics, too. Big mistake firing him.

o In an early S2 episode, Joey Barnes mentions that he has had his show for two years. Two years? It had only been about six months.

[1960'sTVfan]

The show always seemed to be in transition as the following season was different from the previous season. But I think the changes kept the series fresh instead of going stale with the same formula season after season.

Would be interesting to see newspaper or TV Guide articles from those days which might explain some of the changes/cast replacements that occurred on the show. When this series was being made, I imagine the writers likely weren't concerned about explaining all the changes and putting them in the scripts, the changes just simply happened and the episodes evolved from there.

Joey Bishop was an East Coast/New York guy, so when the show changed venues from LA to New York in season two I imagine that was Joey's preference.

I don't care much for Guy Marks, in my opinion he was mostly loud and obnoxious playing the role of Freddy. If Joey Bishop fired him, I can understand why he did it. I like Corbett Monica better, his Larry character is more likable compared to Freddy.

Joey Bishop must have liked Joe Besser because Besser was part of the show during all four seasons. When the series changed venues from LA to New York in season two, Besser was given a new role as building custodian instead of mailman. Perhaps this was done in order to give Besser a more active role in the series and increase his presence in the episodes.

This isn't the best series of all time but overall I like it and I'm glad Antenna TV is showing the episodes including the long unseen first season.

[Hazel Anyday]

I've been recording this show but haven't yet actually started watching. BUT I am glad to have this show as I like most all '60's and '50s sitcoms. As for the reasonable questions laid out in previous posts about the strange unexplained changes made? The answer is simple, "Because it's a TV show." Same reason people in horror movies always "investigate that noise" outside or in their house instead of calling the police, answer? "Because it's a movie." Same reason why young beautiful girls are always your neighbor, never fat, ugly or old, only model types. "Because it's a TV/Movie." Same reason girls fall instantly in love with a guy after he gives then a wink. "It's a TV show/Movie." You expect real life? Better go elsewhere.

[LittleRickyII]

Originally Posted by retroTVfan4ever

The show always seemed to be in transition as the following season was different from the previous season. But I think the changes kept the series fresh instead of going stale with the same formula season after season.

I think it mostly was stale and they kept changing it up trying to make it less stale. There were a couple in the first season I thought were reasonably funny, like the one with Danny Thomas. And the stories and performers were fairly believable compared to later seasons, but it was lacking umph.

Originally Posted by retroTVfan4ever

Would be interesting to see newspaper or TV Guide articles from those days which might explain some of the changes/cast replacements that occurred on the show. When this series was being made, I imagine the writers likely weren't concerned about explaining all the changes and putting them in the scripts, the changes just simply happened and the episodes evolved from there.

I posted links to several articles before in a couple other threads that explain some of the changes, as relate to Joe Flynn and Guy Marks. I'm reposting what I posted before:


Regarding Guy Marks, some articles allude to a big fight on the set, including this:
https://news.google.com/newspapers?i...y-bishop&hl=en
Close to fisticuffs??? OMG

And this article, indicating Marks' acceptance by viewers is what led to his downfall. I suppose that was this writer's sly way of saying Joey canned him for getting too many laughs (the writer might have been facing a libel suit if he were more blunt):
https://news.google.com/newspapers?i...y-bishop&hl=en


But here's one writer that came right out and said it: Joey doesn't like to surround himself with people who get too many laughs. The writer makes the point not only in regard to Marks, but Joe Flynn (from the first season) as well:
https://news.google.com/newspapers?i...y-bishop&hl=en


Joe Flynn was apparently bitter about his departure:
https://news.google.com/newspapers?i...hop+show&hl=en

Marks was not only popular with viewers, but also with the critics, this one crediting Marks with the improved new format of The Joey Bishop Show:
https://news.google.com/newspapers?i...y-bishop&hl=en [This link appears to be broken now]


So if those rumors are true, Joey apparently didn't like co-stars that got more laughs. But he tried to save face (for himself) regarding Marks, claiming he left the show because he couldn't take the sudden fame:
https://news.google.com/newspapers?i...y-bishop&hl=en

That doesn't really seem plausible to me because it appears Guy Marks was immediately looking for a new TV job on The Jackie Gleason Show:
https://news.google.com/newspapers?i...y-bishop&hl=en

So the rumors persisted that Joey Bishop fired people if he thought they got more laughs. Corbett Monica claimed that wasn't true, but of course, what was he going to say? He had his own livelihood to be concerned about. And he was a childhood friend of Bishop's:
https://news.google.com/newspapers?i...y-bishop&hl=en

Whatever happened, it seems they eventually made up (or found they really needed one another for a career boost or ratings) because several years later, Joey Bishop had Guy Marks as a guest a couple times on his talk show:
https://news.google.com/newspapers?i...y-bishop&hl=en

[LittleRickyII]

Originally Posted by Hazel Anyday

As for the reasonable questions laid out in previous posts about the strange unexplained changes made? The answer is simple, "Because it's a TV show." Same reason people in horror movies always "investigate that noise" outside or in their house instead of calling the police, answer? "Because it's a movie." Same reason why young beautiful girls are always your neighbor, never fat, ugly or old, only model types. "Because it's a TV/Movie." Same reason girls fall instantly in love with a guy after he gives then a wink. "It's a TV show/Movie." You expect real life? Better go elsewhere.

I'm not looking for real life, just curious about the sloppy production. Obviously I know it's a TV show, but some shows are well written and produced and others are not. Many shows change formats. A good show will manage the format change well, making a logical transition from one to the other. The Joey Bishop Show didn't do that.

Mike and Gloria didn't suddenly show up living in the Jefferson's old house; there was a story line written to explain their move.

In 1980, the setting of Laverne & Shirley changed from Milwaukee to Los Angeles. All the main character ended up making this move. While it may seem implausible that they would do this, the writers at least gave an explanation of how each character ended up there.

The Ricardos and Mertzes left New York and spent nearly a full season in Hollywood. There was a carefully-crafted story arc explaining how they all got there, beginning with a talent scout coming to meet Ricky for a screen test, then Ricky being offered a movie role after passing the screen test, then plans being made for the trip west, and a couple episodes explaining how the Mertzes and Lucy's mother got on board to make the trip with Lucy and Ricky. After their time in Hollywood, there were several episodes chronicling their return. Same thing with their trip to Europe, their trip to Florida, and their move to Connecticut. Mr. Jillson on The Joey Bishop Show mysteriously goes from being a Los Angeles mailman to a New York janitor, leaving viewers scratching their heads. But on I Love Lucy, when Fred Mertz went from being a New York landlord to being a Connecticut chicken farmer, the viewer was given a full explanation of how that happened. It was all laid out for the viewer so it made sense and and elevated the program above being "just a TV show."

When Mary Richards changed apartments, we knew why.

On the TV show Rhoda, she wasn't suddenly married; instead, we watched her go through a courtship with all the rituals. So by the time she actually got married, it was an event. They made the viewer feel like they were experiencing that exciting moment alongside her. When it was later decided by the writers to make Rhoda single again, they spent an entire season taking her character through the process of separation before the eventual divorce. And her apartment changes coincided with, and were the result of, these events.

This is what well-written sitcoms do. Perhaps in the case of Joey Bishop, he might have been too erratic and temperamental a star, with all his sudden firings, to make well-planned format transitions possible. During S1 alone, there is a boss and a secretary at the beginning of the season, but before long they're gone. Then a new secretary character arrives, then she's gone. He has a brother-in-law, but then he disappears. Then Bill Bixby shows up, then he's gone. And in three consecutive episodes, three different actresses play his significant other! His writers heads must have been spinning!

[1960'sTVfan]

I wouldn't describe the show itself as a mess because overall I think the episodes are entertaining. It's not the greatest show, not a perfect show but I enjoy it for what it is. However, what was happening behind the scenes could maybe be called a mess if rumors are true about Joey Bishop having erratic behavior and firing people left and right. Sounds like there was some chaos and turmoil going on.

[1960'sTVfan]

One observation I have about this show is that Joey Bishop seemed like an odd choice to star in a sitcom because of his deadpan style. So I think it was a good idea to include someone like Joe Besser in the cast to provide the role of zany comic because zany definitely wasn't Joey Bishop's style.

[Coffeecup]

I thought there might have been an explanation of Larry. Something like "Freddy got a job with so and so" and it was nice I could get Larry. I haven't seen all episodes but so far I like Freddy. I think as one poster said, the scenes go a little long and some of the plots are waring on me. . Ellie's character seems a little clingy and jealous.

[peppypacer]

I never even heard of this show until some station started showing a couple episodes a day and wow what a loser of a show. I can't believe it lasted a few seasons. The jokes were so lame it had to have had a laugh machine for the audience reaction. There was one curious thing though, there was an episode with Leo Durocher where they pixiliated (censored) a gesture he made with his hand while arguing with somebody. I'm sure it wasn't the middle finger probably some Italian hand gesture that the nervous nannies of today were afraid to show for fear of offending someone.

[LittleRickyII]

Originally Posted by peppypacer

I never even heard of this show until some station started showing a couple episodes a day and wow what a loser of a show. I can't believe it lasted a few seasons. The jokes were so lame it had to have had a laugh machine for the audience reaction.

Throughout the '50s and '60s, NBC struggled to get a hit sitcom on the air. CBS ruled the airwaves with hit sitcoms. In the early '60s, I think Hazel was NBC's only successful sitcom, so I'm thinking they kept The Joey Bishop Show on for three seasons because they were desperately trying to find another hit sitcom. The Joey Bishop Show did well enough its first season (24th place in the ratings), perhaps they thought if the producers tinkered with it they could turn it into a bigger hit. So it came back a second season with a new format, but ratings actually dropped. They gave it one last try to get the ratings back up by bringing in a lot of guest stars for the third season, but it didn't work. Ultimately, for a show to be successful it depends on its star who is going to be there week after week. That's what keeps a consistent audience, and Joey Bishop just wasn't doing the job. The reason CBS was willing to give it a fourth season I think is explained in this comment from another thread (" The Joey Bishop Show Premieres on Antenna TV with a New Year's Day marathon"):

Originally Posted by TV Guy

CBS did have a development deal with Danny Thomas, and in 1964 he forced them to take the show that they had passed on three years earlier. They wanted to spend as little as possible and kill it quickly - that's why it was up against Bonanza and back in B&W.

Originally Posted by peppypacer

There was one curious thing though, there was an episode with Leo Durocher where they pixiliated (censored) a gesture he made with his hand while arguing with somebody. I'm sure it wasn't the middle finger probably some Italian hand gesture that the nervous nannies of today were afraid to show for fear of offending someone.

I saw that episode, too, and the pixelated hand. In the scene, Leo Durocher was supposed to be upset with Phil Foster. They are about to sit down at the dining room table and Durocher pulls the chair out from under Foster and Foster nearly falls. Foster demands that Durocher move the chair back before he sits down and joins them for dinner. Joey urges Durocher to please move his chair back, "even if it's with one finger." Durocher holds his hand up first (where I think it probably was clearly seen), then down to the chair to move it. It's pixelated that entire time, which makes me wonder if, maybe as a joke, Durocher did use his middle finger? I would love to know the answer.

[1960'sTVfan]

Seems to me that starting in it's 2nd season the Joey Bishop Show in some ways tried to emulate the Dick Van Dyke Show. Van Dyke's show overall has the better writing, but in my opinion Bishop's show is more energetic. I'm glad Antenna TV is airing Joey Bishop Show, it's a fun show and a worthwhile show to record off of TV and collect the episodes. I have the retail DVD set of season 2, so I've been recording seasons 1, 3 and 4 from Antenna. I'm almost done now, just need to record a few more episodes and I'll have all of them.

[Duster76]

Generally speaking sitcoms that star a stand up comedian incorporate elements of his material and comedic style into the show. Think Seinfeld, Ray Romano, Kevin James, Cosby, Newhart, Rickles etc. Joey Bishop was a fast and funny comic, this show is so far removed from that Joey Bishop, that it makes one wonder why he was cast in this show in the first place.

A couple of posters hit the nail on the head, the most shocking thing about all this is the fact the show lasted for four seasons, and there are over 120 episodes! Another poster commented that the show is lame, that is putting it mildly. There seems to be a deliberate effort to make each episode as bland as possible. The impression I get is that the production company was relying on some research which suggested that Bishop was to edgy for the audience, so the focus was on nice not funny. With all the talent available in front of and behind the cameras it should have a hell of a lot funnier. The program turned into a family comedy that didn't feature kids.

Here is a comment from retroTVfan4ever that I have to take issue with:

"the Joey Bishop Show in some ways tried to emulate the Dick Van Dyke Show. Van Dyke's show overall has the better writing, but in my opinion Bishop's show is more energetic"

There aren't two shows less similar, the Van Dyke show, is funny, very contemporary, well acted, full of life, sophisticated without being vulgar. The Joey Bishop Show feels like it was written for someone with the mentality of a 10 year old. Joey Bishop may be able to act, but you can't prove it from this effort.

I love the fact that Antenna TV and to some extent ME TV are starting to drill down a bit and taking a look at more obscure programs. I would love to see He & She get some exposure (talk about an underrated series).

[1960'sTVfan]

Duster76:

If you're going to quote me, quote me fully. I said that STARTING IN IT'S 2ND SEASON it seems in some ways the Joey Bishop Show tried to emulate the Dick Van Dyke Show. At the start of Joey Bishop Show season 2, Joey Barnes is now married and has a wife, just like Rob Petrie is a married man in the Dick Van Dyke Show. Both shows also portray the lead characters at their work and home lives. So there are similarities with both shows whether you want to agree or not.

And I'll say again that while the Van Dyke show overall has better writing, I think the Bishop show is more energetic. Some Joey Bishop Show episodes are funnier than others, but the episodes don't lack in energy. The energetic pace tends to make up for the times there are fewer laughs.

[1960'sTVfan]

Antenna TV is finishing up with the 3rd season today, I really like the 3rd season with all the different guest stars, lots of fun. One of my favorite episodes is the one with Jack Jones, that one is very good. That's too bad if the episode with Vaughn Meader no longer exists because I'd like to see that one too. Probably my least favorite season 3 episode is the one titled Joey Jr. Makes His TV Debut, that one is pretty much a clunker.

Getting back to the writing, the Joey Bishop Show overall doesn't have bad writing but it's not in the same league with the Dick Van Dyke Show. I would say that the writing in the Joey Bishop Show is not consistent, some episodes are better than others. Not every episode of the Dick Van Dyke Show is a classic either, but the show is more consistent in the writing department. With the Joey Bishop Show, the energy level in the episodes tends to compensate for the times when the scripts are on the lackluster side. If the Joey Bishop Show had continued on for a 5th season, it would have reached the 150 episode mark, nearly as many episodes as the Dick Van Dyke Show.

[LittleRickyII]

Originally Posted by Duster76

I love the fact that Antenna TV and to some extent ME TV are starting to drill down a bit and taking a look at more obscure programs. I would love to see He & She get some exposure (talk about an underrated series).

That would be great! He & She is one of those shows that caught the attention of critics, but was somehow missed by the viewing public. I've seen a couple episodes in the past and thought it was pretty good. Antenna TV has been showing Good Morning World on weekends. I've caught a few episodes and I like it. That Joey Bishop Show, on the other hand, not so much. I agree with Garry Marshall's assessment: it was a mess. And as for it having more energy than The Dick Van Dyke Show, I can't even think of a more energetic performer than Dick Van Dyke. And with a superior talent by his side like Mary Tyler Moore, plus the great writing, you can't go wrong.