Sonja & Buzz question

[AB]

Was it ever explained where Sonja & Buzz went? Did they move away or just fade away like some characters do? I have not seen every episode so I may have missed it.

[tlc38tlc38]

The only time they were mentioned after they left was in the season 3 premiere "Farewell Frannie". Mama doesn't say exactly where they are, she is just talking about the people who's not coming to Fran's funeral and she says, "No Buzz and Sonja". I think they were mentioned twice in the same episode but it was about the same thing each time.

[garretta]

Not only were Buzz and Sonja written off the show, they were erased from the series' continuity altogether as if they'd never been conceptualized. According to Rick Hawkins on his DVD interview, he and the other writers hated writing for Buzz and Sonja, whom they felt were forced into stories by NBC in order to make the Harpers a more normal sitcom family. When they had the chance to dump them in favor of Bubba for the syndicated run. they grabbed it. Not only that, Eric Brown and Karin Argoud aren't even considered cast members by Hawkins, which is one reason they weren't invited to take part in the reunion that's on the DVD set. Listening to him talk at times during that interview, it's as if he's disowned the NBC run completely and considers only the syndicated run to be the true Mama's Family. Thank heaven Vicki, Kenny Berry, and Dorothy Lyman don't feel the same.

Speaking for myself, as good as the sitcom can be at times, nothing can top the original Burnett sketches and Eunice in particular. The only sketch I've seen that can top it is the pre-Classic 39 "Honeymooners", which got pretty dark in their own right. Carol, Harvey, and Vicki may have had better individual moments on the Burnett show, but they never meshed as a unit better than they did in "The Family".

[tlc38tlc38]

^I agree. "The Family" was awesome! The character of Eunice is an icon in comedy history.

I like the NBC years equally to the syndicated years. It's all part of "Mama's Family" to me.

I just like to think that Buzz & Sonja went off to college or to live with their mother in Las Vegas.

[JR1]

I haven't seen the DVD interviews- I know some are online, but I may wait to watch them until I get the Complete Series.

Buzz and Sonja were just kinda meh for me. But the NBC era did have some good shows/moments.

[stevea]

Carol not being there was the only problem with the syndicated years. She would have added SO much! It's a shame it didn't happen, like so many other things (like more seasons of the Honeymooners, for example!)

[garretta]

Maybe a few times a year, like in the NBC run, but even if Carol had been on good terms with Joe and Vicki at the time I don't see Eunice fitting into the universe we came to know. When she wasn't there, the audience would have been disappointed, and when she was the other characters would have gotten in the way. She was just too much of a raging maniac to be a part of the kinder, gentler brood that Mama presided over in the syndicated years. Plus, if Eunice is available, what excuse does Bubba have to be taken in by Mama? That relationship, more than any other, marked Mama's change from the bitter old hag of the Burnett years to the sassy, semi-lovable pistol who's still such an icon.

Believe it or not, the one Burnett character I'd like to have seen do a shot on the syndicated shows was Mickey Hart. Carol chose to leave because of her divorce from Joe, Harvey never liked playing Ed to begin with, we saw Ellen (albeit just once), but apparently no one ever thought to call Tim for a guest shot. Maybe Mickey could have been Vint's trainee at Kwik Keys or something similar.

[AB]

Originally Posted by tlc38tlc38

The only time they were mentioned after they left was in the season 3 premiere "Farewell Frannie". Mama doesn't say exactly where they are, she is just talking about the people who's not coming to Fran's funeral and she says, "No Buzz and Sonja". I think they were mentioned twice in the same episode but it was about the same thing each time.

Don't know why they couldn't have mentioned where they went, like to another relatives or away to school. It's like they didn't exist once Bubba showed up. I actually liked Bubba better than their characters but still it bothers me that they couldn't bother to give them a proper exit.

[JR1]

Last night, MeTV aired the episode when Bubba films the Harpers for a class project. Mama talks about her family, her kids and their kids. Now, I guess this can serve as an indirect reference to Buzz and Sonja, as the only other grandchild at this point is Bubba, correct?

[tlc38tlc38]

^Good point. I never thought about that before.

[schmave]

Originally Posted by JR1

Last night, MeTV aired the episode when Bubba films the Harpers for a class project. Mama talks about her family, her kids and their kids. Now, I guess this can serve as an indirect reference to Buzz and Sonja, as the only other grandchild at this point is Bubba, correct?

That's how I always took it. Just because Buzz and Sonja were mentioned didn't mean they didn't exist anymore. Same with Ellen. Ed and Eunice were mentioned just often enough because of Bubba that you knew they were still part of that universe.
If someone watched only the syndicated episodes post-Ellen's final appearance, that fan probably would never know there was an earlier version of the show.

[JR1]

Ellen was mentioned by name, though, after her last appearance, wasn't she?

I like picking up on little things like the "their kids" comment. And when Mama said to Iola, "Imagine them two as parents," I took that to mean of a newborn/young child, not that Vint had never been a father before. I'm sure it's not inferred elsewhere that Naomi's child was Vint's first? Cause that would have been just bad and sloppy. (not that sitcoms sometimes don't have such moments).

[tlc38tlc38]

Originally Posted by JR1

Ellen was mentioned by name, though, after her last appearance, wasn't she?

I like picking up on little things like the "their kids" comment. And when Mama said to Iola, "Imagine them two as parents," I took that to mean of a newborn/young child, not that Vint had never been a father before. I'm sure it's not inferred elsewhere that Naomi's child was Vint's first? Cause that would have been just bad and sloppy. (not that sitcoms sometimes don't have such moments).

I know Ellen was mentioned at least once in the episode "The Big Wheel". Mama uses Ellen, Eunice, & Vint's birthdays to pick the lotto numbers.

[garretta]

There was another Harper grandchild in the original Burnett sketches: Ed and Eunice's son Billy Joe, whom we never saw but was referred to from time to time. I think he was also said to be in prison during Eunice, while Bubba had run away from home and was unable to be found. I wonder if they ever thought about him making an appearance, or if they decided that Bubba was enough of a handful for poor Mama. Maybe he went to live with Larry or Jack (Mama's other two kids that showed up once and were never spoken of again, played by Tommy Smothers and Alan Alda respectively) or had plastic surgery (like Phillip did so he magically became Vinton's twin).

['80sSitcoms]

Originally Posted by garetta

Eric Brown and Karin Argoud aren't even considered cast members by Hawkins, which is one reason they weren't invited to take part in the reunion that's on the DVD set. Listening to him talk at times during that interview, it's as if he's disowned the NBC run completely and considers only the syndicated run to be the true Mama's Family. Thank heaven Vicki, Kenny Berry, and Dorothy Lyman don't feel the same.

I wouldn't say that, after all Hawkins did say Eric and Karin were great kids, and I think he even called them talented (I just watched all the box set's bonus feature interviews recently).

Originally Posted by garetta

Speaking for myself, as good as the sitcom can be at times, nothing can top the original Burnett sketches and Eunice in particular.

I adore the Family sketches, but while I love them (I just watched all the available ones in chronological order to see how they progressed) they actually don't make me laugh near as much as Mama's Family does. They definitely have their "lol" moments, and are brilliantly written and acted, but MF consistently makes me laugh out loud much, much more often. And I love that I laugh so much when watching it!

Originally Posted by tlc38

I just like to think that Buzz & Sonja went off to college or to live with their mother in Las Vegas.

Rick Hawkins says in one of his box set interviews that they went off to college.

Originally Posted by stevea

Carol not being there was the only problem with the syndicated years. She would have added SO much! It's a shame it didn't happen, like so many other things

I disagree. More Carol on the show would have actually been really bad for the series. The series was conceptualized to center around Mama and have Mama be the star character, and there is no way that could have happened if Eunice had been allowed to be there. Actually Mama didn't even become the central star until the syndicated shows; the NBC run was really much more of an ensemble cast.

Originally Posted by JR1

Last night, MeTV aired the episode when Bubba films the Harpers for a class project. Mama talks about her family, her kids and their kids. Now, I guess this can serve as an indirect reference to Buzz and Sonja, as the only other grandchild at this point is Bubba, correct?

On screen, yes; but off screen, if you accept the "Family" origins, Ellen had two daughters, Debbie and Mary Beth. And if you really accept the "Family" origins, Mama had two other sons only seen once each in a "Family" sketch, and of those two brothers, Jack Harper and his wife had kids also (Larry Harper never married; Ed was afraid Larry might be gay).

Also, since Phillip appeared three times in "Family" sketches and was mentioned in numerous others (while Jack and Larry were each only seen once and never mentioned outside of their appearances), and Phillip was in the Eunice TV special as well, it is my belief that when Mama says in "Fran's Dress" that "I used to iron with my right hand and mash potatoes with my left, with four screamin' kids under my feet", that we can deduce she is including Phillip in a sly indirect reference.

Originally Posted by JR1

Ellen was mentioned by name, though, after her last appearance, wasn't she?

I like picking up on little things like the "their kids" comment. And when Mama said to Iola, "Imagine them two as parents," I took that to mean of a newborn/young child, not that Vint had never been a father before. I'm sure it's not inferred elsewhere that Naomi's child was Vint's first? Cause that would have been just bad and sloppy. (not that sitcoms sometimes don't have such moments).

Actually JR1, it was inferred elsewhere that little "Sweet Pea" was Vinton's first baby as well as Naomi's. In one episode Vint talks in baby talk/gibberish and Naomi proudly beams, "Isn't he gonna make a wonderful father??"

As for Ellen, yes, she was mentioned several times throughout the syndicated years, as was Aunt Fran a few times after the episode about her will:

-- Like tlc38tlc38 said Ellen was mentioned in the lottery show, as being born on June 30th

-- In the episode where Vint thinks he's adopted we learn that Ellen went off on a cruise on Mother's Day, Mama has "entire baby albums" of Ellen and Eunice's baby pictures (which seems odd in retrospect that Mama would have taken so many pictures of Eunice as a baby considering how their relationship turned out [Mama even said Eunice was a fussy baby and spit up, lol] ), and we discover that Ellen has red roots and dyes her hair blond

-- Then there's "The Really Loud Family" where Iola tells Bubba about trying to fix up "your Aunt Ellen and Eunice's old dolls", and Thelma taking her into "her daughters' bedroom".

-- In "Mama's Girls" Mama says "I made both my girls take tap. Ellen wasn't too bad, but Eunice danced like a cow on crutches."

-- And in the Binky Bunny episode Mama embellishes the story of creating Binky Bunny to the two guys coming into Kwik Keys, claiming that Eunice and Ellen turned their noses up at him (and making Vint out to be the hero).

-- Ellen is even mentioned in the penultimate episode "There is Nothin' Like the Dames", where Mama flashes back on going into labor with Ellen (once in a glossy version for Naomi, and again in the real version for Iola).

And this is all off the top of my head; as you can see, I have watched this show a LOT. lol

Originally Posted by garretta

There was another Harper grandchild in the original Burnett sketches: Ed and Eunice's son Billy Joe, whom we never saw but was referred to from time to time.

Since Billy Joe never existed after the Eunice movie, I actually wrote a song parody about his Raytown post-Eunice absence called "Ode to Billy Joe" (it fits in that darker undercurrent that the Mama's Family universe has, a la neighboring towns being named after serial killers, lol). It's set to the tune of Bobbie Gentry's "Ode to Billie Joe", lol (it takes place on a hot afternoon as I'm invited into Mama's house for lunch, and we all sit around Mama's dining room table with various members of the family commenting on Billy Joe's demise in the verses as we all have lunch). However, Billy Joe was actually re-named "Raymond" in his last verbal appearance in the "Family" sketches! It's the "Honorary Degree" episode, where Phillip visits Eunice and Mama to receive his honorary degree from the university and have lunch with the mayor the next day. Eunice tells Phillip the story of Bubba and Raymond and the missing Easter egg. It's interesting that Billy Joe is the first of Ed and Eunice's boys to be named, and then Bubba is the second, and then later Billy Joe is re-named Raymond, lol.

Also makes you wonder why they couldn't choose a name for Ellen's husband and stick with it instead of going through Tom, then Arthur, then finally settling on Bruce, lol.