Mary Tyler Moore writing vs. Rhoda writing

[JSP]

I've read comments (not anything here) where people have said "Rhoda" had just so-so writing and was saved by the good acting. Being a fan of "Rhoda" I never noticed any weakness in the scripts. However people almost never put down the writing on "Mary Tyler Moore".

If you think MTM's writing is better than Rhoda's, would you explain why? What makes this show so much better than Rhoda if you see it that way?

[rcbrad]

It seemed that the scripts for Rhoda did become a bit weaker towards the end of the run. The first several seasons had more of a MTMS quality. The original producers also had left the show, starting with the fourth season.

Rhoda is one of my favorite shows of all time, but you could see that the overall quality of the show did change, and not for the better.

The Mary Tyler Moore show ran much longer than Rhoda and it seemed that the show quality remained pretty much the same during the whole run.

I read in a book that the show "Rhoda" changed because Rhoda the Soaring had become Rhoda the Boring.

The book went on to say that Rhoda started out as "television", but turned into just "tv" towards the end of the run.

[TVFactFan]

The first 3 seasons of Rhoda gained more viewers than MTM which was the last 3 seasons of MTM

74-75

1. Rhoda #6

2. MTM # 11

75-76

1. Rhoda #7

2. MTM #19

76-77

1. Rhoda #32

2. MTM #39



So where was this great writing for MTM between 1974 and 1977? LOL

[TV 123]

A couple of the original writers (Lorenzo Music & Davis) for MTM (seasons 1 & 2) were switched over to write for the new Bob Newhart show in 1972. The MTM show creators wrote scripts for only the first couple season also. There were a couple mainstay writers for MTM season 3 through 5, but they were gone by the final two seasons , 6 & 7. I just watched the complete series in sequence, and it seems the final two seasons had many episodes where the characters were not quite themselves, such as Lou Grant getting cuddly with Mary and Murray to try to make them stay on board.

[LittleRickyII]

Originally Posted by TVFactFan

The first 3 seasons of Rhoda gained more viewers than MTM which was the last 3 seasons of MTM

74-75

1. Rhoda #6

2. MTM # 11

75-76

1. Rhoda #7

2. MTM #19

76-77

1. Rhoda #32

2. MTM #39



So where was this great writing for MTM between 1974 and 1977? LOL

Ratings have nothing to do with the quality of a show's writing. To think that, you'd have to think Gilligan's Island was great writing. The Mary Tyler Moore Show was setting records for its time for the most Emmys ever won by a single series. And it was still racking up major Emmy wins right up to the end of its run in 1977. In fact, each of the last three seasons The Mary Tyler Moore Show won the Emmy for Most Outstanding Comedy Series. (Those three seasons of MTM are my personal favorites.) As for ratings, The Mary Tyler Moore Show aired on Saturday nights, which is notoriously the hardest night in television to attract viewers. The fact that it could draw that many viewers on a Saturday night is further testament to how great it was. Rhoda had a ratings advantage in that it aired on Monday nights, a big night for TV viewing.

[JSP]

I'm not trying to bash Mary Tyler Moore. It most certainly was a show that got better as it went along. This is just a case of me saying Rhoda wasn't too shabby either. Season 4 was my favorite season of Rhoda, but most people seem to think the show declined sharply after the first two seasons.

I just disagree with that. If anything it got better.

And I agree with LittleRicky that ratings have nothing to do with the writing of a show.

[king of comedy]

Originally Posted by TVFactFan

The first 3 seasons of Rhoda gained more viewers than MTM which was the last 3 seasons of MTM

74-75

1. Rhoda #6

2. MTM # 11

75-76

1. Rhoda #7

2. MTM #19

76-77

1. Rhoda #32

2. MTM #39



So where was this great writing for MTM between 1974 and 1977? LOL

This is the spin off that has done better than it sucessor. Laverne and Shirley out did Happy Days.

[OH Nuts!]

Originally Posted by JSP

I'm not trying to bash Mary Tyler Moore. It most certainly was a show that got better as it went along. This is just a case of me saying Rhoda wasn't too shabby either. Season 4 was my favorite season of Rhoda, but most people seem to think the show declined sharply after the first two seasons.

I just disagree with that. If anything it got better.

And I agree with LittleRicky that ratings have nothing to do with the writing of a show.

I'm fond of both shows. Rhoda was one of the best characters on MTM that's probably why she got her own show. Both had great characters and actors. Julie Kavner and Nancy Walker were real hoots and truly outstanding. But I do feel the writing on Rhoda wasn't as sharp or nuanced as it was on MTM. But one of the big plusses for Rhoda was that the actors were so good they almost overcame this.

Rhoda's a great show and any minor flaws it has only get accentuated when compared against the iconic original show it spun off from.

On another note, I too believe ratings are not the end all or be all of how"great" a show is. Many works had lackluster ratings but their popularity mushroomed with the passage of time.

[LittleRickyII]

I completely agree with OH Nuts! and rcbrad about both shows. I enjoyed the first season of Rhoda and thought the writing was often top notch, though the very gifted actors mostly carried the show. The second season was also good, though not as solid as the first. When they started tinkering with the format in the third season, I think the show began to lose it's way, although the episode where Rhoda and Joe split up was amazingly well written and had some of the best acting I've ever seen. But the episodes that followed only left me longing for Rhoda and Joe to get back together, which they never did. The last two seasons of the show I find almost unwatchable. The writers seemed to have been trying to turn the show into MTM by that point: Rhoda was acting more like Mary Richards than Rhoda; Brenda seemed like the old Rhoda; Rhoda's boss, Mr. Doyle, was like a copy of Lou Grant; and that Johnny Venture character evoked shades of Ted Baxter. None of this worked, obviously, and the show got canceled in the middle of its fifth season.

As for The Mary Tyler Moore Show, many have the opinion -- and I am one of them -- that the show got better and better over time. It started out as a pleasant little show about a young career woman with the larger focus on her home life, but it evolved into a consistently laugh-out-loud classic where Mary was clearly the center of the show, but all the characters surrounding her were equally the stars of the show. They were all allowed to blossom and shine, and sometimes be the focus of an episode. And a dynamic and chemistry was created between the characters that has seldom ever been repeated.

As I mentioned earlier, comparing the two shows' ratings are meaningless because MTM aired on the very challenging Saturday night schedule, whereas Rhoda aired on Monday nights, and later Sunday nights, which have historically been popular nights for staying home and watching TV. And those three seasons, when both shows were on the air -- 1974-1977 -- MTM took home the Emmy every year for Most Outstanding Comedy Series. When it went off the air in 1977, MTM had earned 29 Emmy Awards, which was the record up to that time. These included Emmys for Mary Tyler Moore in 1973, 1974 and 1976. As for writing, MTM won the Emmy for writing five out of its seven seasons. Three of those were won for those last three seasons of MTM. Rhoda was only nominated once for writing, in its first season, but lost to MTM. In contrast to MTM's 29 Emmys, Rhoda earned two Emmys during its run: one for Valerie Harper in 1975 and one for Julie Kavner in 1978. (Note that Valerie Harper also picked up three Emmys as Best Supporting Actress on The Mary Tyler Moore Show.)

[JSP]

Originally Posted by LittleRickyII

The last two seasons of the show I find almost unwatchable. The writers seemed to have been trying to turn the show into MTM by that point: Rhoda was acting more like Mary Richards than Rhoda; Brenda seemed like the old Rhoda; Rhoda's boss, Mr. Doyle, was like a copy of Lou Grant; and that Johnny Venture character evoked shades of Ted Baxter. None of this worked, obviously, and the show got canceled in the middle of its fifth season.

This is the general consensus, I suppose, but this is where I think people are mistaken. Season Four of Rhoda is great. I don't understand the Jack Doyle/Lou Grant comparisons. Jack Doyle was more of a jerk and less likeable than Lou, at least in Season 4. I don't see the Ted Baxter/Johnny Venture connection either. And then there was Gary and Benny, Ramon Diaz....all funny characters in my opinion, but I am aware that most people find Benny especially to be annoying.

I think people need to watch Season 4 a little more closely. It's not that bad. Criminally underrated.

I suggest everybody buy the Season 4 DVDs of Rhoda from Shout! Factory. Underrated material indeed.

I will concede things got a little worse in Season 5, but it was still a decent show. It hurt that they got rid of Johnny Venture, Gary, and Ramon in Season 5.

[Babalu]

Rhoda was a run of the mill show with a run of the mill cast.

You can't compare Mary, Ed Asner, Ted Knight, Gavin MacLeod and Betty White to Nancy Walker, Julie Kavner, David Groh and Harold Gould.

The funniest character on Rhoda was the unseen Carlton.

[JSP]

Originally Posted by Babalu

Rhoda was a run of the mill show with a run of the mill cast.

You can't compare Mary, Ed Asner, Ted Knight, Gavin MacLeod and Betty White to Nancy Walker, Julie Kavner, David Groh and Harold Gould.

The funniest character on Rhoda was the unseen Carlton.

I would say Rhoda is less dated than MTM. I wouldn't call it run of the mill. Shows that are run of the mill don't age as well as Rhoda did. It's just a show about a married then divorced woman and her daily problems. That's something ordinary women have to experience these days. Just add computers and smart phones and Rhoda would be a perfectly good show these days with the same scripts.

[LittleRickyII]

Originally Posted by JSP

I think people need to watch Season 4 a little more closely. It's not that bad. Criminally underrated.

I suggest everybody buy the Season 4 DVDs of Rhoda from Shout! Factory. Underrated material indeed.

I will concede things got a little worse in Season 5, but it was still a decent show. It hurt that they got rid of Johnny Venture, Gary, and Ramon in Season 5.

I watched the entire series in its original run (my Mom controlled the TV and that's what she had on). I never laughed at any of those episodes from the last couple seasons. Thirty some years later I saw those episodes again in reruns and my opinion had not changed at all. I have a simple gauge for whether or a sitcom serves its purpose: does it make me laugh? I never laughed at any of those episodes from the last few seasons. Definitely it was not underrated. As for the Gary character, I found him boring. And I could not stand the Johnny Venture character. As to my earlier comment that Johnny, Mr. Doyle, Rhoda and Brenda were like remade versions of Ted, Lou, Mary and Rhoda, respectively, I didn't mean they were exact copies, but there were varying degrees of similarities are too obvious. And I'm not the first person who has thought that. Rhoda, after Joe, was lost in the wilderness and the writers seemed to be trying to find familiar ground on which to rework it and give it direction, but it was a lost cause. Lightening doesn't strike twice.

[JSP]

Originally Posted by LittleRickyII

I watched the entire series in its original run (my Mom controlled the TV and that's what she had on). I never laughed at any of those episodes from the last couple seasons. Thirty some years later I saw those episodes again in reruns and my opinion had not changed at all. I have a simple gauge for whether or a sitcom serves its purpose: does it make me laugh? I never laughed at any of those episodes from the last few seasons. Definitely it was not underrated. As for the Gary character, I found him boring. And I could not stand the Johnny Venture character. As to my earlier comment that Johnny, Mr. Doyle, Rhoda and Brenda were like remade versions of Ted, Lou, Mary and Rhoda, respectively, I didn't mean they were exact copies, but there were varying degrees of similarities are too obvious. And I'm not the first person who has thought that. Rhoda, after Joe, was lost in the wilderness and the writers seemed to be trying to find familiar ground on which to rework it and give it direction, but it was a lost cause. Lightening doesn't strike twice.

All right, we'll just agree to disagree. I just have to admire Rhoda's ability to remain interesting (to me) over forty years later, and the show never really dealt with issues of sexism or anything like that. I admire Rhoda's ability to remain a good show just by having likeable characters. They didn't need to stir up controversy or espouse dated political views, or focus too heavily on men being unfair to women......

I admire Rhoda's ability to just be a good half-hour show of light-hearted entertainment without really dealing with any serious topical issues. It was just a show about a married-then-single woman living in New York and dealing with her day-to-day life. The show could have gone into being a big ol' man-hating fiesta, especially since people tend to think Rhoda was bolder than Mary. But it never did. It's as if the writers were going out of their way and jumping out of their skin to make their characters likeable to a middle America audience, and I would say they succeeded. People may penalize Rhoda for not tackling sensitive sociopolitical issues of the day, but I think that just makes the show less dated. It worked in the show's favor.

I know in real life Valerie Harper is a real feminist, and Rhoda was no pushover either, but I never felt Rhoda or Valerie hated men and had a grudge against men. This was a show that was treated carefully by the writers and therefore it held up well. It wasn't trying to deliberately provoke anybody. It wasn't trying to change the world. It was just about a woman and her daily life.

[OOliver]

I, too, think RHODA's fourth season was one of the best. They surrounded her with some great supporting cast members (Ron Silver, for one) and the 'return of Ida'. It was a nice rebound from the trainwreck which was Season 3 (and the horrible addition of 'Sally').

But by Season 4, many faithful viewers had tuned out for good (not me!) and the show limped along into Season 5. It deserved much better.