Joyce vs Suzanne

[JackJanetChrissy]

I've been re-reading the TC companion book by Chris Mann. It's amazing to me how Joyce DeWitt was the one who was the "squeaky wheel" most of the time, but Somers gets all the attention for being too demanding because she asked for more money. But from the very first season, DeWitt was constantly challenging the producers, writers, pretty much everyone.

DeWitt didn't think Janet was written in a likeable manner, she regularly voiced concerns about the script and characters, and she felt stunned and demeaned when line readings were given to her in the first season. She even went so far as to ask John to ask questions/challenge script for her because none of the higher-ups listened to her.

I'm not saying Suzanne was being completely reasonable in her demands, but maybe she shouldn't be demonized like she has been. She asked for more money, and people paid attention. Joyce would challenge everything but the money, and she was dismissed. Funny how differently we perceive these two actresses even though they essentially did the same thing.

[JSP]

Originally Posted by JackJanetChrissy

I'm not saying Suzanne was being completely reasonable in her demands, but maybe she shouldn't be demonized like she has been. She asked for more money, and people paid attention. Joyce would challenge everything but the money, and she was dismissed. Funny how differently we perceive these two actresses even though they essentially did the same thing.

Of course Suzanne shouldn't be demonized. I think what ultimately hurt her was missing tapings of the show more than even asking for more money. She was then seen as business threat.

As we all know it's a business.

I guess Joyce can get away with criticizing the way things are being handled, but as long as she showed up and didn't ask for more money she was going to get by.

[Mr. Television]

Originally Posted by JSP

Of course Suzanne shouldn't be demonized. I think what ultimately hurt her was missing tapings of the show more than even asking for more money. She was then seen as business threat.

As we all know it's a business.

I guess Joyce can get away with criticizing the way things are being handled, but as long as she showed up and didn't ask for more money she was going to get by.

I think nowadays nothing much would be thought of it. Look at how just about the entire cast of TBBT held out and held up production. Also if Suzanne did get a big raise then Joyce would too and John would get more because it was in their contracts. The big problem was that Suzanne started missing the tapings and this was when the show was near it's peak. She thought she was more important then she was. She thought she was on par with Carroll O'Connor and Alan Alda. I can understand that because Suzanne was huge at that time. But John was the star of the show. Had John and Joyce joined her, the producers would have been forced to give in but they didn't want to rock the boat.

[JackJanetChrissy]

I didn't think about the missed tapings, but you're right, that was unprofessional. I also think Suzanne asked for too much money. If she would've gotten what she wanted it would have cost somewhere around $500,000 per episode just to pay the actors. Even today that's a lot of dough.

The producers ruled with an iron fist, too. So I don't know if it would've happened even if the trio would've stood together. I have a feeling they would all have been heave-ho'd to make an example.

[JSP]

Originally Posted by JackJanetChrissy

I didn't think about the missed tapings, but you're right, that was unprofessional. I also think Suzanne asked for too much money. If she would've gotten what she wanted it would have cost somewhere around $500,000 per episode just to pay the actors. Even today that's a lot of dough.

The producers ruled with an iron fist, too. So I don't know if it would've happened even if the trio would've stood together. I have a feeling they would all have been heave-ho'd to make an example.

Yeah at the time things were different and I have feeling all three of them would have been replaced. If they replaced Bo and Luke Duke on the Dukes of Hazzard, they would have replaced everybody who held out on Three's Company too.

If I recall Redd Foxx held out on Sanford and the producers were fine with replacing him with Grady. I don't know if Redd Foxx got any kind of raise when he came back but he wised up and returned.

That was just the rule at the time. If you had a contract, you lived up to it. Things can be negotiated more these days, at least as far as television goes.

[Mr. Television]

Originally Posted by JSP

Yeah at the time things were different and I have feeling all three of them would have been replaced. If they replaced Bo and Luke Duke on the Dukes of Hazzard, they would have replaced everybody who held out on Three's Company too.

If I recall Redd Foxx held out on Sanford and the producers were fine with replacing him with Grady. I don't know if Redd Foxx got any kind of raise when he came back but he wised up and returned.

That was just the rule at the time. If you had a contract, you lived up to it. Things can be negotiated more these days, at least as far as television goes.

They could have tried but it wouldn't have worked. When the Duke boys were replaced the ratings fell hard and they were forced to bring the originals back. They thought the General Lee was the real star of the show. lol They also threatened to kill Archie off All in the Family when Carroll O'Connor held out. Those producers were tough back then. The problem is it would have destroyed the show. Chrissy was replaceable, Jack wasn't.

[JSP]

Originally Posted by Stuck In The '70's

They could have tried but it wouldn't have worked. When the Duke boys were replaced the ratings fell hard and they were forced to bring the originals back. They thought the General Lee was the real star of the show. lol They also threatened to kill Archie off All in the Family when Carroll O'Connor held out. Those producers were tough back then. The problem is it would have destroyed the show. Chrissy was replaceable, Jack wasn't.

Yeah, we all get it now and I think producers are more apt to understand you can't just replace stars of shows and think the show will go on as well as before. But back then it seems producers didn't have the foresight to see this.

I do think they would have replaced Ritter DeWitt and Somers if they tried to play hardball. Of course it would have killed the show, but that would have required foresight on the producers to see it which wasn't in the character of producers at the time.

Either way you're right, because the real star of the show, Ritter, wasn't holding out it meant Somers had less of a leg to stand on, and yes she was under a false delusion she was the star.

[*Pleasant Tomorrow*]

They didn't essentially do the same thing.

Joyce was bossy, and I mean that as a compliment. She raised her voice to the men the way many female actresses and comedians are commended for nowadays (or at least more so than they were). They called her a nag, which is really just a code word for "woman with a voice." If you ever listen to her talk, Joyce is a very insightful person. Listening to her suggestions probably improved a lot upon initial scripts, character traits, etc. There's nothing wrong with having creative input. Like you mentioned, they listened to John when she relayed her suggestions to him. The proof's all there what kind of a situation this was.

Suzanne, on the other hand, was simply being extremely unprofessional. It wasn't her asking for a raise that was the problem, it's the way she handled the situation. The way she handled it screwed things up for everyone else. Not just the cast, but the entire crew, regular people with jobs. She seems to like to think, to this day, that she's some sort of feminist hero by doing what she did, but she'll never be the hero she thinks she is.

Neither situation is at all comparable to me.

[Hag]

Originally Posted by *Pleasant Tomorrow*

They didn't essentially do the same thing.

Joyce was bossy, and I mean that as a compliment. She raised her voice to the men the way many female actresses and comedians are commended for nowadays (or at least more so than they were). They called her a nag, which is really just a code word for "woman with a voice." If you ever listen to her talk, Joyce is a very insightful person. Listening to her suggestions probably improved a lot upon initial scripts, character traits, etc. There's nothing wrong with having creative input. Like you mentioned, they listened to John when she relayed her suggestions to him. The proof's all there what kind of a situation this was.

Suzanne, on the other hand, was simply being extremely unprofessional. It wasn't her asking for a raise that was the problem, it's the way she handled the situation. The way she handled it screwed things up for everyone else. Not just the cast, but the entire crew, regular people with jobs. She seems to like to think, to this day, that she's some sort of feminist hero by doing what she did, but she'll never be the hero she thinks she is.

Neither situation is at all comparable to me.

Girl, speak! You're right and you should say it.

[rcbrad]

Originally Posted by *Pleasant Tomorrow*

They didn't essentially do the same thing.

Joyce was bossy, and I mean that as a compliment. She raised her voice to the men the way many female actresses and comedians are commended for nowadays (or at least more so than they were). They called her a nag, which is really just a code word for "woman with a voice." If you ever listen to her talk, Joyce is a very insightful person. Listening to her suggestions probably improved a lot upon initial scripts, character traits, etc. There's nothing wrong with having creative input. Like you mentioned, they listened to John when she relayed her suggestions to him. The proof's all there what kind of a situation this was.

Suzanne, on the other hand, was simply being extremely unprofessional. It wasn't her asking for a raise that was the problem, it's the way she handled the situation. The way she handled it screwed things up for everyone else. Not just the cast, but the entire crew, regular people with jobs. She seems to like to think, to this day, that she's some sort of feminist hero by doing what she did, but she'll never be the hero she thinks she is.

Neither situation is at all comparable to me.

This is very well said I do not think that these are comparable situations either.

Perhaps the OP was saying they were similar because they were each speaking out for themselves, but they were for completely different reasons and ways of handling what they were each trying to accomplish.

Suzanne's substantial pay raise fiasco was way over the top compared to Joyce's attempts to be creative for the better of the show or her character. Suzanne was mostly looking out for herself and it backfired.

[JackJanetChrissy]

I'm the OP... Yeah I wrote that five years ago when I was just getting into the show. Obviously I didn't think that one through and did not have all the facts. Now I agree more with Pleasant Tomorrow than myself five years ago!