Zodiac - Did he even exist? - Sitcoms Online Message Boards

nohwheregirl · 05-16-2014, 04:57 PM

I'm as interested in the case as anyone (although I know there are others on the board who are more well-versed in the case than I), but this is an intriguing theory that I think should be taken seriously.

http://raasnio.com/GenerationWhyPodc...c-killer-hoax/

Thomas Horan thinks that there never was a Zodiac and the murders were unrelated, but one or more people toyed with the media claiming to be a serial killer, and overwhelmed/irresponsible police departments were all too happy to go along with the theory that there was a mad man on the loose. This was re-inforced by Graysmith's book which has been taken as gospel by many over the years. Horan researched actual police records and pointed out where Graysmith got it wrong (or lied) about events related to the murders.

Horan sounds a little too sure of his own theories for my taste (but I don't think that's a-typical of male academics), but I think it's worth a listen.

elg0rd0 · 05-16-2014, 05:39 PM

I have not heard of this theory before. I'll click the link when I have a computer in front of me (using my smart phone right now). But I would love to hear more about this theory.

ScaryFog · 05-16-2014, 06:58 PM

1) Right after 2 of the couples were attacked, a man called the police and told them he did it. We're talking to minutes to hours after, there would not have been enough time for the general public to know about it in order to hoax it.

2) Within days of the cab driver murder, a piece of his bloody shirt along with a hand written letter consistent with other hand written Zodiac letters was mailed to the newspaper. How could a hoaxer get a hold of his shirt within days of the attack?

Now is it possible some of the letters are fake? Absolutely. But based on the above evidence, the killer and letter writer are either the same guy, or at least part of a group.

nohwheregirl · 05-16-2014, 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ScaryFog

1) Right after 2 of the couples were attacked, a man called the police and told them he did it. We're talking to minutes to hours after, there would not have been enough time for the general public to know about it in order to hoax it.

2) Within days of the cab driver murder, a piece of his bloody shirt along with a hand written letter consistent with other hand written Zodiac letters was mailed to the newspaper. How could a hoaxer get a hold of his shirt within days of the attack?

Now is it possible some of the letters are fake? Absolutely. But based on the above evidence, the killer and letter writer are either the same guy, or at least part of a group.

I think you should listen to the podcast. He addresses your first point. Whether you buy his theory or not is up to you.

Awsi Dooger · 05-17-2014, 12:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nohwheregirl

I'm as interested in the case as anyone (although I know there are others on the board who are more well-versed in the case than I), but this is an intriguing theory that I think should be taken seriously.

http://raasnio.com/GenerationWhyPodc...c-killer-hoax/

Thomas Horan thinks that there never was a Zodiac and the murders were unrelated, but one or more people toyed with the media claiming to be a serial killer, and overwhelmed/irresponsible police departments were all too happy to go along with the theory that there was a mad man on the loose. This was re-inforced by Graysmith's book which has been taken as gospel by many over the years. Horan researched actual police records and pointed out where Graysmith got it wrong (or lied) about events related to the murders.

Horan sounds a little too sure of his own theories for my taste (but I don't think that's a-typical of male academics), but I think it's worth a listen.

I thought you were worried about posting anything about Zodiac, concerned he might come after you.

Now you question his existence?

TheCars1986 · 05-17-2014, 09:50 AM

I have a hard time buying that the whole thing was a "hoax". Whoever murdered Paul Stine obviously was writing letters to the SF Chronicle and using his bloody shirt as proof that he was the murderer. And he was taking credit for the other murders and giving details that only the killer would know. And he was using the famous Zodiac symbol in these letters. The Lake Berryessa murder/attack also featured the Zodiac symbol (on Bryan Hartnell's car) and also bragged about the previous murders. I don't think it was just a couple of guys murdering people who decided to toy with the media by acting like a madman was on the loose, I think they were all the work of one guy. The biggest piece of evidence against the hoax theory: there were several murders in the SF area during the time period of the Zodiac killer's years of silence...why no letters written during this time taking credit for these murders?

everprincess · 05-17-2014, 02:29 PM

I totally believe he existed. He (the killer) knew details of the crimes that no one else but the killer could know. Plus I don't see differences in the letters to suggest more than killer or hoax letters. This case has always intrigued me. But I know that it will never be solved. I believe the Zodiac killer is dead and has been for a long time.

elg0rd0 · 05-17-2014, 02:51 PM

I can see either theory being correct. The timeline of events is just to wide for me to think it was one person. The changing of people were killed is just strange. It's not like San Francisco doesn't have any lovers lanes. How everything stopped randomly after almost a whole year doesn't make any sense either to me.

unsolved1981 · 05-18-2014, 09:18 AM

This is a side point, but related to the OP.

Why is there a tendency on crime boards to wonder if a murder/murderer were all a hoax/not a murder? I have seen this in so many threads here, and on other crime boards in general.

I don't have time to listen to any podcasts, but I would love to hear the reaction to letting the SFPD know that the Zodiac doesn't exist. Maybe whoever made that podcast can record that for his next show. Look around the associated sites - this is fringe conspiracy material.

Just to give the board some idea of the other 'theories' of the podcast:

Quote:

The Vitamin Hoax. Most of us believe that we aren’t necessarily getting all of the nutrition that we need from the food we consume. Fast food, microwaves, frozen foods, exercise, & other factors have at least half of us concerned enough that we take multivitamins to make up the difference. But how many of us have considered some very important questions? Do these supplements work? Are they even necessary? Justin & Aaron discuss vitamins and supplements and try to answer whether or not they are simply a hoax.

Zodiac and Vitamins, both hoaxes. Gotcha.

elg0rd0 · 05-18-2014, 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by unsolved1981

This is a side point, but related to the OP.

Why is there a tendency on crime boards to wonder if a murder/murderer were all a hoax/not a murder? I have seen this in so many threads here, and on other crime boards in general.

I don't have time to listen to any podcasts, but I would love to hear the reaction to letting the SFPD know that the Zodiac doesn't exist. Maybe whoever made that podcast can record that for his next show. Look around the associated sites - this is fringe conspiracy material.

Just to give the board some idea of the other 'theories' of the podcast:

Zodiac and Vitamins, both hoaxes. Gotcha.

I couldn't tell you why. I think in this particular case (and I didn't listen to the whole podcast) for me there are to large of gaps between the killings and the letters being written. With the exception of the Paul Stine letter which the Chronicle got 3 or 4 days after the killing. Could it all have been 1 person? That definitely seems probable. You can't put the whole blame on law enforcement for not catching the Zodiac either. I'm pretty sure the press saw this as a way cash in and sell a lot of newspapers. The way it was handled in the press wasn't all that great. Everyone had a lead and I'm going to guess that there were at least a dozen credible leads that could have had the potential to catch Z.

BTW I'm a Flinestones kid.

MegtheEgg86 · 05-18-2014, 11:19 PM

OT:

Homeboy does kind of have a point. While not a "hoax" per se, the vast majority of Americans do receive sufficient amounts of vitamins in their daily diet (yes, even in that godawful so-called "American" diet of processed crap). Multivitamins are essentially the greatest thing going if you want to make a few quick dollars off well-intentioned, health-conscious people. And for saturating your urine with Vitamin C.

Awsi Dooger · 05-19-2014, 12:36 AM

Nothing is a bigger scam than Vitamin Water. As soon as I saw that product on the shelves I nearly fell to my knees in laughter. Then I wondered why I hadn't thought of it, and raked in all the tens of millions from suckers.

The guy who came up with Vitamin Water is spending millions trying to buy a spot as a prominent owner of thoroughbred race horses.

TheCars1986 · 05-19-2014, 08:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MegtheEgg86

OT:

Homeboy does kind of have a point. While not a "hoax" per se, the vast majority of Americans do receive sufficient amounts of vitamins in their daily diet (yes, even in that godawful so-called "American" diet of processed crap). Multivitamins are essentially the greatest thing going if you want to make a few quick dollars off well-intentioned, health-conscious people. And for saturating your urine with Vitamin C.

I enjoy that processed crap!

MegtheEgg86 · 05-19-2014, 09:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheCars1986

I enjoy that processed crap!

Hey, no shame! I just had a waffle bowl of birthday cake ice cream last night and it was probably the most glorious thing I have ever eaten in my life.

LooksLikeCRicci · 05-19-2014, 03:25 PM

All I can say about the Zodiac is that he was an escaped convict from Deer Lodge, Montana...

05-16-2014, 04:57 PM	#1
nohwheregirl THE Mystery Machine Senior Member Join Date: Apr 23, 2004 Posts: 1,057	Zodiac - Did he even exist? I'm as interested in the case as anyone (although I know there are others on the board who are more well-versed in the case than I), but this is an intriguing theory that I think should be taken seriously. http://raasnio.com/GenerationWhyPodc...c-killer-hoax/ Thomas Horan thinks that there never was a Zodiac and the murders were unrelated, but one or more people toyed with the media claiming to be a serial killer, and overwhelmed/irresponsible police departments were all too happy to go along with the theory that there was a mad man on the loose. This was re-inforced by Graysmith's book which has been taken as gospel by many over the years. Horan researched actual police records and pointed out where Graysmith got it wrong (or lied) about events related to the murders. Horan sounds a little too sure of his own theories for my taste (but I don't think that's a-typical of male academics), but I think it's worth a listen.

05-16-2014, 05:39 PM	#2
elg0rd0 Just wanna play video games. Frequent Poster Join Date: Mar 13, 2011 Location: A house of cards Posts: 183	I have not heard of this theory before. I'll click the link when I have a computer in front of me (using my smart phone right now). But I would love to hear more about this theory.
	__________________ Not willing to poke the hornets nest anymore.

05-18-2014, 11:19 PM	#11
MegtheEgg86 Member Forum Veteran Join Date: Jun 19, 2008 Location: The Volunteer State Posts: 5,156	OT: Homeboy does kind of have a point. While not a "hoax" per se, the vast majority of Americans do receive sufficient amounts of vitamins in their daily diet (yes, even in that godawful so-called "American" diet of processed crap). Multivitamins are essentially the greatest thing going if you want to make a few quick dollars off well-intentioned, health-conscious people. And for saturating your urine with Vitamin C.
	__________________ "Why is she lying?, it makes me wonder. What is she hiding?, it makes me wonder." Go Vols!

05-16-2014, 06:58 PM	#3
ScaryFog Member Frequent Poster Join Date: Nov 25, 2009 Posts: 222	1) Right after 2 of the couples were attacked, a man called the police and told them he did it. We're talking to minutes to hours after, there would not have been enough time for the general public to know about it in order to hoax it. 2) Within days of the cab driver murder, a piece of his bloody shirt along with a hand written letter consistent with other hand written Zodiac letters was mailed to the newspaper. How could a hoaxer get a hold of his shirt within days of the attack? Now is it possible some of the letters are fake? Absolutely. But based on the above evidence, the killer and letter writer are either the same guy, or at least part of a group.

05-17-2014, 09:50 AM	#6
TheCars1986 #VLSKMS Forum Fanatic Join Date: Nov 22, 2008 Location: Maryland Posts: 8,606	I have a hard time buying that the whole thing was a "hoax". Whoever murdered Paul Stine obviously was writing letters to the SF Chronicle and using his bloody shirt as proof that he was the murderer. And he was taking credit for the other murders and giving details that only the killer would know. And he was using the famous Zodiac symbol in these letters. The Lake Berryessa murder/attack also featured the Zodiac symbol (on Bryan Hartnell's car) and also bragged about the previous murders. I don't think it was just a couple of guys murdering people who decided to toy with the media by acting like a madman was on the loose, I think they were all the work of one guy. The biggest piece of evidence against the hoax theory: there were several murders in the SF area during the time period of the Zodiac killer's years of silence...why no letters written during this time taking credit for these murders?

05-17-2014, 02:29 PM	#7
everprincess Member Frequent Poster Join Date: Sep 05, 2011 Location: North Carolina Posts: 163	I totally believe he existed. He (the killer) knew details of the crimes that no one else but the killer could know. Plus I don't see differences in the letters to suggest more than killer or hoax letters. This case has always intrigued me. But I know that it will never be solved. I believe the Zodiac killer is dead and has been for a long time.

05-17-2014, 02:51 PM	#8
elg0rd0 Just wanna play video games. Frequent Poster Join Date: Mar 13, 2011 Location: A house of cards Posts: 183	I can see either theory being correct. The timeline of events is just to wide for me to think it was one person. The changing of people were killed is just strange. It's not like San Francisco doesn't have any lovers lanes. How everything stopped randomly after almost a whole year doesn't make any sense either to me.

05-19-2014, 12:36 AM	#12
Awsi Dooger Member Senior Member Join Date: Feb 18, 2003 Location: Miami Posts: 1,537	Nothing is a bigger scam than Vitamin Water. As soon as I saw that product on the shelves I nearly fell to my knees in laughter. Then I wondered why I hadn't thought of it, and raked in all the tens of millions from suckers. The guy who came up with Vitamin Water is spending millions trying to buy a spot as a prominent owner of thoroughbred race horses.

05-19-2014, 03:25 PM	#15
LooksLikeCRicci Likes to live in a clean house Moderator Forum 4000 Club Member Join Date: Nov 27, 2005 Posts: 4,050	All I can say about the Zodiac is that he was an escaped convict from Deer Lodge, Montana...