AITF was gold, but the Bunker family was broken.......................

[Yong Fang]

I have literally grown up watching All in the Family. It first came on when I was 4 years old in 1971 and have seen every episode from the beginning until the end of Archie Bunker's Place. I do love the series, and especially AITF I know all the episodes because I have probably seen them 10 times each over the last 40 years. But still, I would not want to be a Bunker.

Archie was a guy who seemed constantly angry at his surroundings and easily agititated by the World around him. I think at times he was mentally abusive to his wife Edith, making her act like his servant on occasion, making her fetch him a beer and making his dinner.

This wasn't that horrible, since Archie was the one who made the money, but I disliked the respect he showed his wife. Edith was a sweetheart who did not deserve the treatment she recieved at times. Edith found her voice, but it seems to me that it would be difficult to be married to someone like Archie who was such a grouch and occasionally thoughtless and mean. He did not treat Edith like an equal partner in their lives, but he was loving and protective of her, so we can give him points for that.

That was my issue with Archie, he was always either defensive, mean, cruel, racist, who treated his wife as second class because he earned the income. Archie was also down on everyone, his pastor Rev Felcher instead of Fletcher), his black neighbors (although George could be an SOB), the Jewish neighbors, or basically anyone else. But I think some of his exasperation comes from having to feed two "kids" who were well in their 20's (Struthers and Reiner were both 24 when the series started) and by virtue of being married should be independent with their own lives.

In real life, Mike should not have married Gloria since he was in school and did not have a job. There was no pressing need to marry Gloria, since she wasn't pregnant. I just could not be married and live in my bride's home and (no offense) making love to my wife in her childhood bed under her parent's roof, especially working class poor parents whose father in law works on the docks and drives a taxi in the mean streets of 1970's NYC.

Mike did live in the Bunker house rent free and did not contribute money to the home, electricity or food since he was not working, with poor Archie having to feed a large, late 20-something male. Mike could have at least got a minimum wage job part time to pay for food and bills. Something. Mike (to my knowledge) never did that. Many grad students do work while going to school. Mike was an orphan, who had no family beyond a working class uncle (which was in one episode). He had no money or means of support and going to school, who lived in the dorms or his own apartment who decided in his present situation to get married and allow the in laws to pay for his upkeep.

Then Meathead bought the old Jefferson house. How did the guy who started a teaching job (which paid a small salary) can afford a mortgage to a house............in New York City (which has always been expensive compared to other parts of the country)! Where did he get the money?

Mike was also too broke to buy a car. Well, none of the Bunkers drove, but one would think a 1970's 20-something longhair could afford a car of some type. I guess he could have if he worked. Mike got his Masters in the end and got a job, but he took the easy way out mooching off of in-laws.

It was interesting the first time I saw All In the Family after over a decade that I thought Sally Struthers looked really good in the pilot and the first season. But Gloria seemed to me someone who was sort of dumb, she had no job to bring money in the house, no job skills to speak of, and someone of somewhat lower education. Basically Gloria eschewed opportunities for her own life to find someone to get married to. Gloria was as smart as Meathead if not smarter, but she stayed home with Edith baking cookies.

Archie: A mostly mean, spiteful, argumentitive man who is working too support a loving wife, but also a worthless, lazy son-in-law, and a lazy mid-20's daughter who also did not prepare that well for her life outside her parent's home.

Edith: Put up with her husband's demands while coddling her mid 20's child and child in law when her and Arch were more or less on a fixed income. Enjoyed the company of her "children" which kept her as an enabler. But Edith's food always looked good. This is one of the few shows where we the audience wants to eat what is on the table (a second show was The Sopranos.)

Meathead: Get a job before you get married. Gloria Bunker is not going anywhere....(but again, look at the pilot episode with Sally Struthers in pig-tails and tight pants, she had it somewhat going on and not homely). Meathead was a mooch. He just was. The Meathead had the audacity to say (in the episode where Arch-Edith-Steffy went to California) that living in the Bunker home was the worst years of his life. What a tool.

Gloria: A woman who never went to school beyond high school to improve her educational position, who waited to get married, and then married a guy who wasn't fiscally able to marry her. Struthers own spinoff show "Gloria" failed, but it would have been interesting to see the story of Gloria Bunker-Stivik being on her own, learning a skill (the show was set in a veternary clinic with Burgess Meredith as her boss) and for once, living life as an independent person. Which is how it should be.

Just my thoughts.............

[Hughsgirl]

Originally Posted by Yong Fang

I have literally grown up watching All in the Family. It first came on when I was 4 years old in 1971 and have seen every episode from the beginning until the end of Archie Bunker's Place. I do love the series, and especially AITF I know all the episodes because I have probably seen them 10 times each over the last 40 years. But still, I would not want to be a Bunker.

Archie was a guy who seemed constantly angry at his surroundings and easily agititated by the World around him. I think at times he was mentally abusive to his wife Edith, making her act like his servant on occasion, making her fetch him a beer and making his dinner.

This wasn't that horrible, since Archie was the one who made the money, but I disliked the respect he showed his wife. Edith was a sweetheart who did not deserve the treatment she recieved at times. Edith found her voice, but it seems to me that it would be difficult to be married to someone like Archie who was such a grouch and occasionally thoughtless and mean. He did not treat Edith like an equal partner in their lives, but he was loving and protective of her, so we can give him points for that.

That was my issue with Archie, he was always either defensive, mean, cruel, racist, who treated his wife as second class because he earned the income. Archie was also down on everyone, his pastor Rev Felcher instead of Fletcher), his black neighbors (although George could be an SOB), the Jewish neighbors, or basically anyone else. But I think some of his exasperation comes from having to feed two "kids" who were well in their 20's (Struthers and Reiner were both 24 when the series started) and by virtue of being married should be independent with their own lives.

In real life, Mike should not have married Gloria since he was in school and did not have a job. There was no pressing need to marry Gloria, since she wasn't pregnant. I just could not be married and live in my bride's home and (no offense) making love to my wife in her childhood bed under her parent's roof, especially working class poor parents whose father in law works on the docks and drives a taxi in the mean streets of 1970's NYC.

Mike did live in the Bunker house rent free and did not contribute money to the home, electricity or food since he was not working, with poor Archie having to feed a large, late 20-something male. Mike could have at least got a minimum wage job part time to pay for food and bills. Something. Mike (to my knowledge) never did that. Many grad students do work while going to school. Mike was an orphan, who had no family beyond a working class uncle (which was in one episode). He had no money or means of support and going to school, who lived in the dorms or his own apartment who decided in his present situation to get married and allow the in laws to pay for his upkeep.

Then Meathead bought the old Jefferson house. How did the guy who started a teaching job (which paid a small salary) can afford a mortgage to a house............in New York City (which has always been expensive compared to other parts of the country)! Where did he get the money?

Mike was also too broke to buy a car. Well, none of the Bunkers drove, but one would think a 1970's 20-something longhair could afford a car of some type. I guess he could have if he worked. Mike got his Masters in the end and got a job, but he took the easy way out mooching off of in-laws.

It was interesting the first time I saw All In the Family after over a decade that I thought Sally Struthers looked really good in the pilot and the first season. But Gloria seemed to me someone who was sort of dumb, she had no job to bring money in the house, no job skills to speak of, and someone of somewhat lower education. Basically Gloria eschewed opportunities for her own life to find someone to get married to. Gloria was as smart as Meathead if not smarter, but she stayed home with Edith baking cookies.

Archie: A mostly mean, spiteful, argumentitive man who is working too support a loving wife, but also a worthless, lazy son-in-law, and a lazy mid-20's daughter who also did not prepare that well for her life outside her parent's home.

Edith: Put up with her husband's demands while coddling her mid 20's child and child in law when her and Arch were more or less on a fixed income. Enjoyed the company of her "children" which kept her as an enabler. But Edith's food always looked good. This is one of the few shows where we the audience wants to eat what is on the table (a second show was The Sopranos.)

Meathead: Get a job before you get married. Gloria Bunker is not going anywhere....(but again, look at the pilot episode with Sally Struthers in pig-tails and tight pants, she had it somewhat going on and not homely). Meathead was a mooch. He just was. The Meathead had the audacity to say (in the episode where Arch-Edith-Steffy went to California) that living in the Bunker home was the worst years of his life. What a tool.

Gloria: A woman who never went to school beyond high school to improve her educational position, who waited to get married, and then married a guy who wasn't fiscally able to marry her. Struthers own spinoff show "Gloria" failed, but it would have been interesting to see the story of Gloria Bunker-Stivik being on her own, learning a skill (the show was set in a veternary clinic with Burgess Meredith as her boss) and for once, living life as an independent person. Which is how it should be.

Just my thoughts.............

Nice writing! And I agree with everything you had written too. There are a few things that I recall that differ a little though. I'm quite sure that Meathead only rented the Jefferson house. Here's what I recall. That episode where he finally claims he is trying to find them their own place, he gets angry at Archie because Archie feels he isn't trying hard enough (I agree with that!) So George is trying to rent that house out and hears that the Stivics are looking for cheap accomadations and thinks he would really get to Archie if he rented to them - therefore offering rent so dirt cheap that they couldn't refuse and that's what happened. However, I may have forgotten an episode where he actually bought the house, but I can't think of it.

Gloria working - I do recall she had a job selling cosmetics at the local store because she and Mike went to her boss about firing her because she got pregnant and then off and on Archie berated Mike for living off his wife who he felt shouldn't be working - just like Edith. So she supposedly contributed some money, but very little. Which brings me to my next point of my aggrivation - I HATED when Mike and Gloria would argue and try to boss Archie with what they as a family should spend money on. Remember the battle between the gun and Edith's horrible song? They had NO business telling him that he couldn't buy a gun! He was the main bread winner and I think that was BEFORE Gloria had her job. I could add so much more but it would be redundant because we seem to see it all the same.

[caladon]

As I recall, Archie also moonlighted by driving Munson's cab as an extra job. So, not only did Archie support Mike, but he took an extra job to do it.

I realize that Mike was supposed to offer the other side of Archie's opinons. However, over the years Mike proved himself to be quite the hypocrite. He took part in peace marches and was quick to violently defend Gloria on the subway. He was always quick to use his education to put Archie down; a very disrespectful act. He shouted his views while being critical of Archie for having opposing views. I think the best episode that brought his shortcomings to light was the episode where he, Gloria, Edith, Lionel, Irene and Frank were playing a board game, and he couldn't handle the fact that others didn't see him as the perfect person he thought he was. It took Edith to show him how things really were.

Mike would've been better off had he given Archie the same consideration and understanding he seem to demand that Archie should give others. Archie was who he was; a product of his environment, era and upbringing, and when the world began to change, he found it difficult to change with it. As the years went on, Archie's character did actually grow from time to time. Mike on the other hand seem to become what he used to enjoy mocking. He became a head of a household with all its responsibilties and as it turned out, couldn't handle it as well as Archie did.

[Mr. Drucker]

All the aforementioned character flaws in their collective abundance are a big part of what made AITF a very REAL show with a very true to life portrayal of life in a middle class 1970's home.It was such an accurate portrayal,this is how so many people were able to relate to these characters who so often maintained significant PRIMAL attributes of more altruistic personalities yet overtly displayed the more common person's unstable personal liabilities.In the end,the were all quite human and therefore fallible in their concerted efforts to make a happy home.

[Hughsgirl]

Originally Posted by caladon

As I recall, Archie also moonlighted by driving Munson's cab as an extra job. So, not only did Archie support Mike, but he took an extra job to do it.

I realize that Mike was supposed to offer the other side of Archie's opinons. However, over the years Mike proved himself to be quite the hypocrite. He took part in peace marches and was quick to violently defend Gloria on the subway. He was always quick to use his education to put Archie down; a very disrespectful act. He shouted his views while being critical of Archie for having opposing views. I think the best episode that brought his shortcomings to light was the episode where he, Gloria, Edith, Lionel, Irene and Frank were playing a board game, and he couldn't handle the fact that others didn't see him as the perfect person he thought he was. It took Edith to show him how things really were.

Mike would've been better off had he given Archie the same consideration and understanding he seem to demand that Archie should give others. Archie was who he was; a product of his environment, era and upbringing, and when the world began to change, he found it difficult to change with it. As the years went on, Archie's character did actually grow from time to time. Mike on the other hand seem to become what he used to hold enjoy mocking. He became a head of a household with all its responsibilties and as it turned out, couldn't handle it as well as Archie did.

AMEN!!!! And thanks for reminding me that Archie also drove the cab. I forgot about that!

[Mr. Drucker]

Let's put things in this light.The very fact that the program still inspires heavy controversies such as the ones presented here is nothing less than testament to the notion that it was a HUGE occurrance in the anals of pop culture hisotry as words like "dingbat" and "meathead" became hugely popular household expressionisms.

[caladon]

It did definitely make a place for itself in pop culture history. I give the show a lot of credit for having re-defined the sitcom. It's characters and topics had more dimension than folks were used to seeing on their TV screens. I imagine in some instances viewers found that aspects of the show could mirror their own lives to a degree; see a bit of themselves in each of the characters. Any show that makes people think, debate, re-evaluate and even cringe now and then and still able to make them laugh, is a show worth watching and remembering.

[Frump]

Well you talked about "Archie not treating Edith as an equal partner", as if you think everything should be equal.
And you harp on Mike for not working, but what about Gloria? Wasn't it just as important then that SHE be working too and contributing to the family?

You keep saying MIKE should not have gotten married without a job first to support a wife, well it wasn't just MIKE getting married, Gloria also got married, so why don't you say the same thing about her, that SHE should not have gotten married without a job to help support her husband, I mean if we are going to be 100% equal here. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

I know many ppl like to come back with, "Well equal doesn't necessarily mean both partners are EXACTLY the same, gender roles are still important, and it's the man's job to take care of his wife, I'm sorry but it IS!" And I think that is nonsense, equal means EQUAL.

Or why not say neither one of them should have gotten married until they BOTH have jobs and are able to support eachother.

Just curious why you're putting it all on Mike's shoulders?



And also I always felt Mike probably DID have his own money, at least some. I mean if his parents passed away, he had to get something out of that, and where was he living before he moved in with Archie? So he had to have something stashed away.

Also you need money for clothes, eating out, shaving cream, stuff like that, and I don't see Archie handing him an allowance every week, so I'd say he had some funds somewhere.

[Mr. Drucker]

Yeah,like Kramer on "Seinfeld".Now here's a man who rents an apartment up on New York's at least semi-exclusive upper west side and always has plenty of money to do just about everything he pleases and yet has no clear mode of income.(Although it was revealed on one episode that he had been on strike from a bagel shoppe for the past ten years or so but that would hardly explain his ability to fulfill his many extravagant expenses)