Was Vivian Vance a mean shrew?????

[Yong Fang]

Concerning the Vivian Vance/William Frawley fued and dislike for each other, wasn't most of the drama the doing of Vance?

Vance and Frawley more than likely have never met before the start of this series (although I could be wrong about this).

Vance's bickering seems to be that she did not want to be the TV wife of an older person. But why did she do the series in the first place? As in, the first day when everyone was meeting everyone else, and Vivian saw this older dude there, didn't she just go "I am not going to play wife to an old man, thanks Luce, but no thanks..." and walked out?

From all accounts, Frawley had a drinking problem, and was warned by Desi if he came to the set drinking or drunk on set he would be fired, Frawley came in and did his job, and actually learned the lines after one take. He was very professional, having done Broadway and many films as a character actor.

Supposedly, Viv once complained playing next to an old man like Frawley, he overheard it and was hurt and angry (rightfully). Sure, I am sure Frawley was cantankerous, he was a man in his late 60's in the early 1950's. He could have also been a jerk, but he could not have been any better or worse than Desi or even Lucy. If anything, Frawley probably had the most genteel of the three other personalities, which were young enough to be his children.

I have also heard in another story that when she heard that William Frawley died she actually had a party and toasted his death! I mean, geesh, how rude. Unless someone killed or hurt a member of my family and they are now dead would I toast someone who is dead. I hope Frawley's kids returned the favor (which is why I think Vance was a *itch).

My perception over the years reading is that Vivian Vance was a shrew. Or the word that rhymes with witch. Seems poetic that she played the first divorcee' on television. The woman had four husbands in real life. From her Wikipedia page, it seems that she was very busy with her life, which is fair.

But the lady seemed mean, vindictive and a primadonna. Would that be a fair assessment or too harsh?

[LittleRickyII]

Originally Posted by Yong Fang

But the lady seemed mean, vindictive and a primadonna. Would that be a fair assessment or too harsh?

Too harsh. Vivian Vance suffered with serious mental health problems her whole life, brought on by the way her disapproving mother raised her. She was greatly damaged by her childhood and was extremely insecure. Her age difference with William Frawley touched an insecure nerve. I'm not completely excusing her from fault, though, just trying to look at her actions from the perspective of mental health problems.

You raise a question I've often wondered about: If she did not like the idea of playing William Frawley's wife, and being perceived as a frumpy landlady, then why did she accept the part in the first place? She knew full well from the get-go what the Ethel character was supposed to be about. When she was first offered the part, the only person reluctant in casting her was Lucille Ball, who had not met her, and whose first impression of Vance was that she was too glamourous to be Ethel. Ms. Vivian then went out of her way to convince Lucille Ball she could play Ethel, dressing in a bathrobe and trying to look dowdy. So it was obvious from the very beginning that Vance knew exactly what she was getting into, and she was very determined to win the role. So it is perplexing that she would later (allegedly) hate that Ethel image, even hate the name "Ethel" (which is curious given that Ethel Merman was a close longtime friend). (She accepted the part on The Lucy Show on her own terms: she did not have to look frumpy and would be called "Viv.") But perhaps that is the complexity of mental illness: maybe she was just very confused in her own mind about her own happiness. Or this Ethel image eventually touched a nerve and tapped into her deep insecurity.

I agree that proposing a toast to someone's death, as she did when William Frawley died, is highly inappropriate -- and I admit that shocked me when I first read about that -- but that behavior as well may have been connected to her mental health. I should clarify, though, that she did NOT have a party to celebrate William Frawley's death; rather, she was out to dinner with some friends when she learned the news that he had died, and her initial reaction was to propose a toast. Sometimes people react in strange ways initially when they learn the news of a sudden death, before the reality sinks in and they're still in a state of shock. Combine that with her mental health problems and you might wind up with an inappropriate initial reaction such as a champagne toast.

I know from things other people have said about her -- people who knew her personally and worked with her like Lucie Arnaz and Jimmy Garrett -- that she was a genuine person, hard working and professional, but still a kind person.

[Dianne3]

The other day I saw the Dore Shary Hollywood episode.
When I researched it, I learned that it was actually Vivian Vance's then 3rd husband Phil Ober who played him because Shary was sick.
I had read that Ober abused Vivian. Any more info?

[McGillicuddy]

As far as the toast, does anybody know what she said during the toast? Maybe it was a positive toast, or a way of saying "good-bye".

[LittleRickyII]

Originally Posted by markway895

As far as the toast, does anybody know what she said during the toast? Maybe it was a positive toast, or a way of saying "good-bye".

I don't remember exactly what she said, but the gist of it was: William Frawley is dead? I'll drink to that!

[McGillicuddy]

In the extras for The Lucy Show Season 2 Dvd release, Barry Livingston (Ernie on My Three Sons), was interviewed because he appeared on the show. He said that William Frawley would say horrible things about VV, to the kids!!
I think they were equally mean to each other.

[PrettyinPink55]

I'd be interested to read more about Vivian's battles with mental illness and her life in general. Actually, I would be very interested in reading about all of the cast of I Love Lucy's lives. I find the actors and actresses fascinating!! I am also quite fascinated by Lucy and Desi's tragic love story. In the end you can tell they really truly loved each other. It's just so heartbreaking.

Does anyone have any recommendations on books/memoirs/autobiographies, etc. of the cast or I Love Lucy in general? I would very much appreciate it!! I've heard stories on forums and message boards and have watched a few documentaries here and there, but that's about the extent of my knowledge. I would really like to know more about the show and what went on behind the scenes and about the talented actors and actresses.

[Dianne3]

I'm also fascinated about their lives.

I guess then nobody on here knows about Vivian Vance's third husband maybe hitting her. I thought I had read that info on these boards, but it may be way back.

In the 4th season Dore Shary episode that I mentioned above, I thought that the characters Lucy, Ethel & Fred were kind of rude to him. That was before I read that he was played by Phil Ober, VV third husband. That got be thinking that maybe it was the actor's real life feelings for the guy coming out.

What I do find kind of ironic is that although Frawley was an alcoholic, he did live the longest of the 4 actors.

[visi]

Nearly seventy years later and I'm still aching at the loss of the proposed Fred and Ethel spinoff. If only those two could have made it work

[Coffeecup]

In the first season Phil played the 2nd first husband in the episode where Lucy needs a first husband to win money in the game show. The actor who played the bum later played the man who hated dogs in the episode where little Ricky gets a dog.

[70s show watcher]

Originally Posted by PrettyinPink55

I'd be interested to read more about Vivian's battles with mental illness and her life in general. Actually, I would be very interested in reading about all of the cast of I Love Lucy's lives. I find the actors and actresses fascinating!! I am also quite fascinated by Lucy and Desi's tragic love story. In the end you can tell they really truly loved each other. It's just so heartbreaking.

Does anyone have any recommendations on books/memoirs/autobiographies, etc. of the cast or I Love Lucy in general? I would very much appreciate it!! I've heard stories on forums and message boards and have watched a few documentaries here and there, but that's about the extent of my knowledge. I would really like to know more about the show and what went on behind the scenes and about the talented actors and actresses.

there is a bio called the other side of ethel mertz wich will tell you everything you ever wanted to know about viv meet the mertzes has alot of stuff about bill and viv altough it seemes mostly about bill a book desi;s autobio is very good but it only covers his life from 1917 to 1960 there quite a few book about lucy ball of fire is a good one

[PrettyinPink55]

Originally Posted by 70s show watcher

there is a bio called the other side of ethel mertz wich will tell you everything you ever wanted to know about viv meet the mertzes has alot of stuff about bill and viv altough it seemes mostly about bill a book desi;s autobio is very good but it only covers his life from 1917 to 1960 there quite a few book about lucy ball of fire is a good one

Thank you so much!!!! I will definitely have to check those out!!! Thank you everyone!!

[70s show watcher]

Originally Posted by PrettyinPink55

Thank you so much!!!! I will definitely have to check those out!!! Thank you everyone!!

you are welcome happy reading

[Mr. Television]

Originally Posted by markway895

In the extras for The Lucy Show Season 2 Dvd release, Barry Livingston (Ernie on My Three Sons), was interviewed because he appeared on the show. He said that William Frawley would say horrible things about VV, to the kids!!
I think they were equally mean to each other.

If she treated him rotten all those years, I can see why he would say bad things about her to Barry. I'm sure he dished out alot too though. It's too bad they couldn't get along because they were a great couple on the screen.

[PrettyinPink55]

Originally Posted by Stuck In The '70's

If she treated him rotten all those years, I can see why he would say bad things about her to Barry. I'm sure he dished out alot too though. It's too bad they couldn't get along because they were a great couple on the screen.

I agree, I think the two made a great pair onscreen and I couldn't imagine anyone else as Fred or Ethel...or Lucy or Ricky...or anyone for that matter!! Great casting!!