A third Ed Sullivan sketch?

[Bill S.]

We know there were two Honeymooners sketches performed on Ed Sullivan's show in 1952. There was the "Ring Salesman" remake from March 30th (IMDb lists it as March 31st) and the "Alice and Ralph Get Dressed for a Date Last Night" remake from May 4th. Those were the only two sketches listed on the SOFA Entertainment website last I checked, however I just recently came across an IMDb listing that claims another Honeymooners sketch was performed on May 25th: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0725135/

[ChrisTV]

Well, the 2 known Honeymooners sketches performed on The Ed Sullivan Show are indeed "Ring Salesman" 3/30/52 & "Alice and Ralph Get Dressed for a Date Last Night" 5/4/52.

Sure enough that 5/25/52 IMDB link lists the storyline: Jackie Gleason is Ed's special guest. Jackie appears in several skits from his Dumont Series including "The Poor Soul" & "The Honeymooners".

This following link lists the performers that night & Gleason, Carney or Honeymooners are not listed:

http://ctva.biz/US/MusicVariety/EdSu..._(1951-52).htm

The only thing I can think of is perhaps they repeated the Honeymooners sketch from 3/30 or 5/4 on 5/25. Hmmmmm.....

[Frank Gannucci]

I don't know if this will help but in December, I contacted SOFA Entertainment and asked them if there were any Honeymooners sketches on the DVDs that they sell. At first, the lady on the phone said no. She then called me back and said that there is a sketch on one of the Ed Sullivan DVDs with Jackie Gleason and Art Carney in a sketch called "Game Show." I thought it might have been a Honeymooners sketch but it turns out it wasn't.

[Bill S.]

Interestingly, the IMDb listing for the May 4th show says "It would prove to be Pert Kelton's last performance as Alice." I sure would like to know who is adding all this information. I just took a look at the ever-changing Wikipedia episode list and somebody added "The Ring Salesman" with a March 28, 1952 air date, claiming it's "The last existing DuMont 'Honeymooners' sketch." The run time is listed as 8:09, same run time listed in the booklet for the 60th set, but in the booklet it just says "spring 1952," so I don't know where they got March 28th from. However, we know that that particular "Ring Salesman" is the Ed Sullivan version, so now we have THREE air dates for one sketch. I also noticed that run times are listed for three of the five missing Audrey shows as follows:

Missing Pants (10:10)
Easter Hats (9:50)
Alice's Birthday (14:50)

I feel like I've seen these run times listed elsewhere, along with what I believe to be an incorrect one for "Halloween Party for the Boss." Anyone know where they originated from?

[ChrisTV]

Bill- when I updated the TV.com guide, I remember the run times to these 3 episodes appearing somewhere. I remember questioning at the time that if the run time is available, most likely the footage is available, just too poor to release. Perhaps I saw it in the Honeymooners Companion or the revised Honeymooners Treasury. I sure do wish they would revise one of these books to reflect the additional episodes released.

[Bill S.]

Originally Posted by ChrisTV

Bill- when I updated the TV.com guide, I remember the run times to these 3 episodes appearing somewhere. I remember questioning at the time that if the run time is available, most likely the footage is available, just too poor to release. Perhaps I saw it in the Honeymooners Companion or the revised Honeymooners Treasury. I sure do wish they would revise one of these books to reflect the additional episodes released.

What was added to the revised Honeymooners Treasury?

[ChrisTV]

The Honeymooners Treasury was revised sometime in the early 90's. I do not have it anymore, but the 2nd edition said on the cover, revised to include the lost episodes. I know I got those times for the 3 still lost episodes from a published book. Just unsure which one.

Originally Posted by Bill S.

What was added to the revised Honeymooners Treasury?

[MrBand]

Originally Posted by ChrisTV

The Honeymooners Treasury was revised sometime in the early 90's. I do not have it anymore, but the 2nd edition said on the cover, revised to include the lost episodes. I know I got those times for the 3 still lost episodes from a published book. Just unsure which one.

I still have both editions of the Honeymooners Treasury, the latter of which was expanded to include brief one sentence descriptions and running times of the Lost Episodes. The running times for the three aforementioned sketches are listed as such in the second edition.

[ChrisTV]

Im pretty sure this was the only published book to have these run times. This sure does make it seem they have the reels from the JGS, but the footage is too damaged to release.

[Bill S.]

Originally Posted by ChrisTV

Im pretty sure this was the only published book to have these run times. This sure does make it seem they have the reels from the JGS, but the footage is too damaged to release.

I was unaware that there was a revised edition of this book, but I had all the other books, and I don't remember seeing those run times in any of them. I would love to know where they got them from.

Originally Posted by MrBand

I still have both editions of the Honeymooners Treasury, the latter of which was expanded to include brief one sentence descriptions and running times of the Lost Episodes. The running times for the three aforementioned sketches are listed as such in the second edition.

Were there descriptions for those three, and other shows that were still lost at the time? Also, are there run times listed for the original "Halloween Party" (aka "Question Mark") and "Halloween Party for the Boss"?

[MrBand]

Originally Posted by Bill S.

I was unaware that there was a revised edition of this book, but I had all the other books, and I don't remember seeing those run times in any of them. I would love to know where they got them from.


Were there descriptions for those three, and other shows that were still lost at the time? Also, are there run times listed for the original "Halloween Party" (aka "Question Mark") and "Halloween Party for the Boss"?

From the Treasury, second edition:

Missing Pants: Still missing. No story information available. (December 6, 1952, 10:10)
Easter Hats: Same (April 4, 1953; 9:50)
Alice's Birthday: Same (May 16, 1953; 14:50)

A listing for Question Mark is the same as above and lists it as running on October 25, 1952, with a running time of 9:25 and Halloween Party for the Boss ("a retitled remake of the 1953 skit") as airing on October 30, 1954 with no running time available.

If there is no footage available, where did the information on the running times originate?

FWIW, the original Trip to Europe shows are not included in the listings, although the broadcast dates and plots were previously confirmed in the The Honeymooners' Companion.

[Bill S.]

Originally Posted by MrBand

From the Treasury, second edition:

Missing Pants: Still missing. No story information available. (December 6, 1952, 10:10)
Easter Hats: Same (April 4, 1953; 9:50)
Alice's Birthday: Same (May 16, 1953; 14:50)

So I guess this is where those run times came from. But the question still remains, if the footage isn't available, how'd they get those run times? Just a guess, but maybe the times were estimated based on the length of any other footage that might have survived from those broadcasts. I'm sure if any footage could have been salvaged, it would've been included as bonus material on the 60th set. Unfortunately, any deteriorated film was probably cut from the reel and disposed of.

Originally Posted by MrBand

A listing for Question Mark is the same as above and lists it as running on October 25, 1952, with a running time of 9:25 and Halloween Party for the Boss ("a retitled remake of the 1953 skit") as airing on October 30, 1954 with no running time available.

Interesting that there's no running time for the '54 version, which I still believe is an expanded version. I doubt this was one of the damaged shows, but there has to be some reason it's not in Gleason's vault. "Love Letter" turned up in the Peabody Award Archive, so maybe "for the Boss" ended up somewhere similar. Speaking of "Love Letter," is there any mention of that original version or any other alternate shows like "Six Months to Live," "Letter to the Boss," etc.? I believe it was the first edition of the Treasury that mentioned the "Stand In for Murder" remake being shown at a R.A.L.P.H. convention, so that one should be in there, at least...

[MrBand]

Originally Posted by Bill S.

So I guess this is where those run times came from. But the question still remains, if the footage isn't available, how'd they get those run times? Just a guess, but maybe the times were estimated based on the length of any other footage that might have survived from those broadcasts. I'm sure if any footage could have been salvaged, it would've been included as bonus material on the 60th set. Unfortunately, any deteriorated film was probably cut from the reel and disposed of.


Interesting that there's no running time for the '54 version, which I still believe is an expanded version. I doubt this was one of the damaged shows, but there has to be some reason it's not in Gleason's vault. "Love Letter" turned up in the Peabody Award Archive, so maybe "for the Boss" ended up somewhere similar. Speaking of "Love Letter," is there any mention of that original version or any other alternate shows like "Six Months to Live," "Letter to the Boss," etc.? I believe it was the first edition of the Treasury that mentioned the "Stand In for Murder" remake being shown at a R.A.L.P.H. convention, so that one should be in there, at least...

No additional performances of "6 Months," "Letter to the Boss," or "Murder" in the listings. In fact, I'm noticing that "Boys & Girls Together" is erroneously listed as being aired May 23, 1955. The book mentions that two sketches from April 1954 and 1955 were shown at the RALPH convention, but fails to identify them by name.

[Bill S.]

Originally Posted by MrBand

No additional performances of "6 Months," "Letter to the Boss," or "Murder" in the listings. In fact, I'm noticing that "Boys & Girls Together" is erroneously listed as being aired May 23, 1955. The book mentions that two sketches from April 1954 and 1955 were shown at the RALPH convention, but fails to identify them by name.

Strange that the "Stand in" remake was mentioned (by air date) in the first edition, but wasn't included in the revised episode guide. Any mention of "Sprained Thumb"/"Bus Accident," either 1952 or 1953? I'm still trying to figure out where that inaccurate October 4, 1952 air date came from.

[ChrisTV]

@ Bill. That October 4, 1952 date has always been an odd issue. The inaccurate air date I think happened because of 1 of 2 reasons.

First, VHS releases in the late 80's early 90's had mistakes on the descriptions on the jackets. I remember air dates were listed incorrectly to episodes. (especially Halloween & Manager of Baseball) Not sure if this date was 1 of them though.

Secondly, The Best of Gleason specials. When these first aired & especially when they were making the trade circuit rounds, there was a lot of confusion as to when The New Bowling Ball, Sprained Thumb & Six Months To Live all aired.

I remember both Oct 4, 1952 and Dec 6, 1952 being used frequently for Six Months To Live. At 1 point I believe Six Months To Live was listed in the Oct 4, 1952 date & Sprained Thumb was listed Dec 6, 1952. Until I believe it was John's trivia book came out with the corrected dates. Remember that in the Lost Episodes book, Glow Worm Cleaning is listed incorrectly as 6/27/53, when really 1/3/53. 1953's Vacation Fred's Landing is listed 6/20, really is 6/27. Other shows w/ wrong dates in the book were Kramden Vs. Norton, Great Jewel Robbery & Boys & Girls Together.

Lastly, pretty much solidifying that there was no Honeymooners on October 4, 1952 is that on the Anniversary Special hosted by Audrey Meadows she clearly states that Quiz Show was only the 4th time that Gleason, Carney, she & Randolph worked together. And later that special she says for Lost Baby, that it's only the 3rd time. This would be correct due to The New Bowling Ball & The Turkey being the 1st & 2nd.