Why exactly did Vivian Vance leave the show? - Sitcoms Online Message Boards

MamasFamilyFan · 01-27-2002, 06:39 PM

HEY everyone, just curious to know, why did Viv leave the show? I thought everything seemed to be going well, until Viv left and Mr. Mooney came in. I much rather prefered the Vivian episodes than the later Mooney episodes, and why did Jerry and Chris leave the show too? I thought they made it more interesting. I guess the only good thing about the later episodes was Maryjane, who helped make the show a little more "alive" Just my opinion, I love the Lucy Show very much...

dillon Strunck · 01-27-2002, 08:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MamasFamilyFan
HEY everyone, just curious to know, why did Viv leave the show? I thought everything seemed to be going well, until Viv left and Mr. Mooney came in. I much rather prefered the Vivian episodes than the later Mooney episodes, and why did Jerry and Chris leave the show too? I thought they made it more interesting. I guess the only good thing about the later episodes was Maryjane, who helped make the show a little more "alive" Just my opinion, I love the Lucy Show very much...

She left because She was diagnosed with cancer and then died in 1978.

Well Bye

TV Guy · 01-27-2002, 10:38 PM

Vivian actually died in 1979, and she wasn't diagnosed with cancer until many years after she left "The Lucy Show" (she left in 1965). According to most of the references, Viv was tired of commuting from her Connecticut home to Hollywood, where the show was filmed. During the 1964-65 season, she cut back her appearances and didn't appear in all the episodes. When it came time to negotiate a new deal in 1965, she made it clear that she didn't really want to do the show anymore, but would be willing to continue if they really made it worth her while (a LOT more money, and opportunities to write, produce, and direct).

Lucy was willing to go along with Vivian's desire to be more involved behind the scenes, but Lucy's advisors at Desilu told her to turn Vivian down because she wanted too much money. So, Viv left the show, returning occasionally for guest appearances. Supposedly, Lucy and Viv's relationship had become strained during Viv's last year on the show, and when Viv did return to guest star, they got along much better because they weren't spending as much time together (and Viv was happier because she was spending more time with her husband at home).

Lucy and her producers used Viv's departure as an opportunity to overhaul the format of the show (they had actually been contemplating this for awhile). They decided to get away from the domestic comedy and just focus on Lucy, Mooney, and various guest stars, so the kids were written out. I agree with you -- the show was never as good once they made this change.

LucyFan · 01-28-2002, 01:21 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by TV Guy
Vivian actually died in 1979, and she wasn't diagnosed with cancer until many years after she left "The Lucy Show" (she left in 1965). According to most of the references, Viv was tired of commuting from her Connecticut home to Hollywood, where the show was filmed. During the 1964-65 season, she cut back her appearances and didn't appear in all the episodes. When it came time to negotiate a new deal in 1965, she made it clear that she didn't really want to do the show anymore, but would be willing to continue if they really made it worth her while (a LOT more money, and opportunities to write, produce, and direct).

Lucy was willing to go along with Vivian's desire to be more involved behind the scenes, but Lucy's advisors at Desilu told her to turn Vivian down because she wanted too mucy money. So, Viv left the show, returning occasionally for guest appearances. Supposedly, Lucy and Viv's relationship had become strained during Viv's last year on the show, and when Viv did return to guest star, they got along much better because they weren't spending as much time together (and Viv was happier because she was spending more time with her husband at home).

Lucy and her producers used Viv's departure as a reason to overhaul the format of the show (they had actually been contemplating this for awhile). They decided to get away from the domestic comedy and just focus on Lucy, Mooney, and various guest stars, so the kids were written out. I agree with you -- the show was never as good once they made this change.

Well said TV Guy!

I couldn't have done it better myself. Btw, how did you get so good at writing detailed material such as this one?

TV Guy · 01-28-2002, 11:24 PM

Thanks, LucyFan. I've read a few books on Lucy, Desi, and Desilu because the behind-the-scenes information about them is so interesting to me. I guess some of what I read rubbed off on me.

ClassicComedyFan2 · 08-05-2002, 12:34 PM

Hmm...interesting...but with Hollywood, it makes sense.

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baronzzz · 08-05-2002, 01:08 PM

Lucy without Viv is like peanut butter without jelly.

JaneTVFan · 08-07-2002, 10:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by baronzzz
Lucy without Viv is like peanut butter without jelly.

Agreed. In addition to what TVGuy said, Lucy pretty much drove Vivian from the show. If you look at Vivian's contribution to TLS during the third season, she had pretty much been reduced to a secondary player whereas in the first season, she and Lucy were a team. It was a slap in the face. And Lucy was behind this. She didn't want to be upstaged by Vivian, so this was her way of controlling her. And besides, the original writers were no longer involved with the show, so the scripts were not as good. I'm sure Vivian was embarrassed by the way the show had declined and the way she had been demoted and was being treated. Lucy was being a bitch. It's no wonder Vivian made such big demands to stay. But Lucy was encouraged not to accept her demands, and Gary Morton was encouraging Lucy to go on without her. Gary Morton seemed to be behind all the bad decisions made with respect to Lucy's career.

Brenton · 10-02-2002, 06:51 PM

Gary Morton and Vivian Vance hated each other. Gary did everything he could to put a wedge between the two ladies'. It was a shame, because Lucy and Viv were great on screen together. They weren't that great without each other. Without Viv, future "Lucy" shows just weren't that good. (I HATE GALE GORDON!)

SPLAIN · 10-03-2002, 03:48 PM

Wow, i should have come to this board before! TV Guy, i agree, you are good, Jane, you are bad. For a lady so knowledgable about Lucy you just love to throw those bad words around, don't you. Looks like we're finally going to have that fight. Viv was FULL of herself and made insane demands, when she left she wound up doing coffee commercials and then a few more jobs, then her career was over. Don't get me wrong, i LOVE Viv, but Lucy went on to higher ratings after she left because although many of you seem to think the first seasons were the best, the general public preferred the last three. It was called the Lucy show, not the Lucy and Viv show. People tuned in to see Lucy! Lucy was a pro not a b****, if she had been a man, nobody would have made those comments. Here i am, a guy, defending her and you Jane, a woman, calling her that! I was kidding about the fight, but i think this subject needs lots more discussion. I am sorry to say i agree also with the one that said they hated Gale, I NEVER liked him then, and although i respect him more today, all he did was yell, rant and rave and he blew up so often and yelled at her so much, i rarely thought it funny, and NEVER liked him back then. Over the years my feelings have changed about him, he's part of classic TV, but anybody around Lucy was just a prop anyway, a good prop mind you, but a prop nonetheless.

JaneTVFan · 10-05-2002, 12:54 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by SPLAIN
Wow, i should have come to this board before! TV Guy, i agree, you are good, Jane, you are bad. For a lady so knowledgable about Lucy you just love to throw those bad words around, don't you. Looks like we're finally going to have that fight. Viv was FULL of herself and made insane demands, when she left she wound up doing coffee commercials and then a few more jobs, then her career was over. Don't get me wrong, i LOVE Viv, but Lucy went on to higher ratings after she left because although many of you seem to think the first seasons were the best, the general public preferred the last three. It was called the Lucy show, not the Lucy and Viv show. People tuned in to see Lucy! Lucy was a pro not a b****, if she had been a man, nobody would have made those comments. Here i am, a guy, defending her and you Jane, a woman, calling her that! I was kidding about the fight, but i think this subject needs lots more discussion. I am sorry to say i agree also with the one that said they hated Gale, I NEVER liked him then, and although i respect him more today, all he did was yell, rant and rave and he blew up so often and yelled at her so much, i rarely thought it funny, and NEVER liked him back then. Over the years my feelings have changed about him, he's part of classic TV, but anybody around Lucy was just a prop anyway, a good prop mind you, but a prop nonetheless.

So you're dying to fight with me. Well I'm not about to get into a fight, but I will apply some common sense. First, about the ratings, I get so sick of people assuming The Lucy Show was more popular after Vivian left because it was ranked higher in the ratings. The fact is fewer people were watching TV over all. So TLS could get the same ratings, but be ranked higher. Also, television across the board went downhill fast in the first couple years after Vivian Vance left the show. The Dick Van Dyke Show was gone in 1966. Don Knotts left The Andy Griffith Show in '65, the same time Viv left TLS. Bill Frawley left My Three Sons that year, too. Classics like The Danny Thomas Show were off the air by then. Shows like Bewitched and The Beverly Hillbillies started repeating themselves, recycling the same jokes and storylines. And all that was left was garbage like Gilligan's Island and The Flying Nun. In short, The Lucy Show no longer had any real competition. The viewing choice was simple: either watch Lucy or some boring, wretched crap on the other channel. Lucy was NOT more popular after Viv left, she was just the only show left in town. And that's how things continued in television until the early '70s when classics like All in the Family, Mary Tyler Moore, Maude, M*A*S*H, Sanford and Son and Bob Newhart began to surface on TV.

Regarding Viv's "insane demands" do you not understand business and negotiation? Viv never really wanted to do TLS in the first place. Why would she continue doing something she didn't really want to do unless Lucy and company made it REALLY worth her while? She would have never been happy continuing on the show unless she had been compensated GREATLY. In the beginning, she was almost an equal on the show. Desi, who she respected and loved, was around. Bob and Madelyn, who she respected, were around. But by 1965 they were all gone, and Viv's role on the show had been reduced from equally ranked, equally important co-starring performer, to mere second banana. Not even that. Gale Gordon was given more prominence on the show by that time than Viv. If that episode with Lucy on roller skates had been produced in the first season, Lucy and Viv BOTH would have had roller skates stuck on their feet and they would have been pushing eachother and fighting over that man Lucy was after, and it would have been a scream. But by this time, all the Viv character was allowed to do was stand by and watch Lucy do all the comedic stunts all by herself. This was Lucy's stubbornness and ego taking over and it ruined the show. The scripts, even in the third season, started getting silly and probably embarrassed Vivian. She was happy to go I am quite sure.

oldshows · 10-05-2002, 11:57 AM

I agree with Jane that The Lucy Show's ratings increased not because it was better than before but because there was nothing else on t.v. in the mid to late 60s. It was either Lucy or something not worth watching at all. I also agree with Jane that Vivian's demands weren't insane. She was tired and weary and didn't want to keep up with the demands of doing a t.v. show anymore. So she decided that if Lucy REALLY wanted her to do it, she was going to keep compensated in way that would REALLY make it worth her while. I do think Vivian's role was reduced in Season 3 but not neccessarily because of Lucy. Vivian announced at the beginning of the Season 3 that she was going to have a few episodes off, was going to do a little less on the show to prepare it for her departure at the end of the season.... unless of course Lucy met her demands.

buddy love · 10-05-2002, 05:01 PM

I'm with Jane on this. As far as ratings success the same thing happened to another tv show from the same period when another very valuable and well liked co-star left. That show is the Andy Griffith Show and the co-star, obviously, Don Knotts. TAGS always had high ratings in the top ten, but it was actually the number one show on television for the season during its last season 67-68 season--three seasons after Knotts left. Most people who are fans of TAGS believe the show was best when Deputy Barney Fife was a regular and yet it achieved its best ratings after he left--same thing with the Lucy show. The quality of the show was not as high after Viv left yet it continued to get good ratings and even better ratings. Jane hit it on the head--less people were watching and what they were offered wasn't all that great.

SPLAIN · 10-07-2002, 10:53 AM

Three to one, i lose. Jane, i've told you before, you and Dawsongirl are the reasons, i came on here in the first place, so i'm joking when i always refer to the FIGHT thing. I wouldn't bother answering you if i didn't respect you, you made good points, i won't be able to answer them for months as i have only the first 50 shows, the next 100 are coming soon. I'm the one who's weird here, i find the the ones in the beginning slow and mundane, i preferred the later shows, but that might be because i'm remembering shows i saw over 20 years ago, when i finally get them and compare, then we'll talk. You're absolutely right, Viv did not want to come back and her agent made these outrageous demands and as i recall from my books, Lucy was willing to let her direct and do other things to keep her, but her advisors told her she should let her go, as Viv was starting to think she WAS the show. They were great together, but Ann Sothern or Audrey Meadows could have replaced her, Lucy needed a foil/partner in crime, i gotta admit though that when i saw the last special recently, you know the Lucy meets the President one where they were together one last time, it was so moving because these two were magic together! Forgive me, i'm a Lucille Ball fanatic, i defend her whenever i can, but like Jane, i realize she wasn't perfect!

SPLAIN · 10-07-2002, 11:34 AM

Finally figured out where the PM's were and had a few to answer from a while back, i'm such an idiot with these computer things, thanks Jane for understanding everything, i will NEVER mention the fight thing again, i want nice friendly discussion between fans, and fans can disagree now and then. People here are very knowledgable, really glad i came here!

01-27-2002, 06:39 PM	#1
MamasFamilyFan Member Occasional Poster Join Date: Apr 30, 2001 Posts: 32	Why exactly did Vivian Vance leave the show? HEY everyone, just curious to know, why did Viv leave the show? I thought everything seemed to be going well, until Viv left and Mr. Mooney came in. I much rather prefered the Vivian episodes than the later Mooney episodes, and why did Jerry and Chris leave the show too? I thought they made it more interesting. I guess the only good thing about the later episodes was Maryjane, who helped make the show a little more "alive" Just my opinion, I love the Lucy Show very much...

01-27-2002, 10:38 PM	#3
TV Guy Member Forum 3000 Club Member Join Date: Jun 25, 2001 Location: Boston, MA, USA Posts: 3,419	Vivian actually died in 1979, and she wasn't diagnosed with cancer until many years after she left "The Lucy Show" (she left in 1965). According to most of the references, Viv was tired of commuting from her Connecticut home to Hollywood, where the show was filmed. During the 1964-65 season, she cut back her appearances and didn't appear in all the episodes. When it came time to negotiate a new deal in 1965, she made it clear that she didn't really want to do the show anymore, but would be willing to continue if they really made it worth her while (a LOT more money, and opportunities to write, produce, and direct). Lucy was willing to go along with Vivian's desire to be more involved behind the scenes, but Lucy's advisors at Desilu told her to turn Vivian down because she wanted too much money. So, Viv left the show, returning occasionally for guest appearances. Supposedly, Lucy and Viv's relationship had become strained during Viv's last year on the show, and when Viv did return to guest star, they got along much better because they weren't spending as much time together (and Viv was happier because she was spending more time with her husband at home). Lucy and her producers used Viv's departure as an opportunity to overhaul the format of the show (they had actually been contemplating this for awhile). They decided to get away from the domestic comedy and just focus on Lucy, Mooney, and various guest stars, so the kids were written out. I agree with you -- the show was never as good once they made this change.
	Last edited by TV Guy; 01-28-2002 at 12:42 PM.

10-02-2002, 06:51 PM	#9
Brenton Member Occasional Poster Join Date: Sep 29, 2002 Location: Beverly Hills, CA Posts: 86	The Truth Gary Morton and Vivian Vance hated each other. Gary did everything he could to put a wedge between the two ladies'. It was a shame, because Lucy and Viv were great on screen together. They weren't that great without each other. Without Viv, future "Lucy" shows just weren't that good. (I HATE GALE GORDON!)

01-28-2002, 11:24 PM	#5
TV Guy Member Forum 3000 Club Member Join Date: Jun 25, 2001 Location: Boston, MA, USA Posts: 3,419	Thanks, LucyFan. I've read a few books on Lucy, Desi, and Desilu because the behind-the-scenes information about them is so interesting to me. I guess some of what I read rubbed off on me.

08-05-2002, 12:34 PM	#6
ClassicComedyFan2 Coolicious! Forum Regular Join Date: Sep 28, 2001 Location: AL, United States, Alpha Quadrant Posts: 698	Hmm...interesting...but with Hollywood, it makes sense. ------------------------------- Daily Quotes: “I like to provide exposition.” –Niles Crane “Oh, come on! Do you really think someone is watching us?” –Frasier Crane “You never know. This whole thing could be a television show!” –Niles Crane “Nah!” –Martin, Frasier and Niles Crane ("Hueytown-A-Go-Go", Episode 54 of Gopher's Gateway) “Well, you did order it through the Pony express.” --Mailman “I would like to know why it was so slow!” –Jade Blaydes “The horses are a lot older now?” –Mailman ("Prom of the Galaxy 2 - The Prom Conspiracy", Episode 53 of Gopher's Gateway)

08-05-2002, 01:08 PM	#7
baronzzz Member Frequent Poster Join Date: May 11, 2002 Location: Beautiful Downtown Burbank Posts: 192	Lucy without Viv is like peanut butter without jelly.

10-03-2002, 03:48 PM	#10
SPLAIN I Love Lucy Forum 4000 Club Member Join Date: Mar 04, 2002 Location: MONTREAL, CANADA Posts: 4,563	Wow, i should have come to this board before! TV Guy, i agree, you are good, Jane, you are bad. For a lady so knowledgable about Lucy you just love to throw those bad words around, don't you. Looks like we're finally going to have that fight. Viv was FULL of herself and made insane demands, when she left she wound up doing coffee commercials and then a few more jobs, then her career was over. Don't get me wrong, i LOVE Viv, but Lucy went on to higher ratings after she left because although many of you seem to think the first seasons were the best, the general public preferred the last three. It was called the Lucy show, not the Lucy and Viv show. People tuned in to see Lucy! Lucy was a pro not a b****, if she had been a man, nobody would have made those comments. Here i am, a guy, defending her and you Jane, a woman, calling her that! I was kidding about the fight, but i think this subject needs lots more discussion. I am sorry to say i agree also with the one that said they hated Gale, I NEVER liked him then, and although i respect him more today, all he did was yell, rant and rave and he blew up so often and yelled at her so much, i rarely thought it funny, and NEVER liked him back then. Over the years my feelings have changed about him, he's part of classic TV, but anybody around Lucy was just a prop anyway, a good prop mind you, but a prop nonetheless.

10-05-2002, 11:57 AM	#12
oldshows Member Frequent Poster Join Date: Dec 10, 2001 Posts: 215	I agree with Jane that The Lucy Show's ratings increased not because it was better than before but because there was nothing else on t.v. in the mid to late 60s. It was either Lucy or something not worth watching at all. I also agree with Jane that Vivian's demands weren't insane. She was tired and weary and didn't want to keep up with the demands of doing a t.v. show anymore. So she decided that if Lucy REALLY wanted her to do it, she was going to keep compensated in way that would REALLY make it worth her while. I do think Vivian's role was reduced in Season 3 but not neccessarily because of Lucy. Vivian announced at the beginning of the Season 3 that she was going to have a few episodes off, was going to do a little less on the show to prepare it for her departure at the end of the season.... unless of course Lucy met her demands.

10-05-2002, 05:01 PM	#13
buddy love Member Frequent Poster Join Date: Aug 19, 2002 Posts: 189	I'm with Jane on this. As far as ratings success the same thing happened to another tv show from the same period when another very valuable and well liked co-star left. That show is the Andy Griffith Show and the co-star, obviously, Don Knotts. TAGS always had high ratings in the top ten, but it was actually the number one show on television for the season during its last season 67-68 season--three seasons after Knotts left. Most people who are fans of TAGS believe the show was best when Deputy Barney Fife was a regular and yet it achieved its best ratings after he left--same thing with the Lucy show. The quality of the show was not as high after Viv left yet it continued to get good ratings and even better ratings. Jane hit it on the head--less people were watching and what they were offered wasn't all that great.

10-07-2002, 10:53 AM	#14
SPLAIN I Love Lucy Forum 4000 Club Member Join Date: Mar 04, 2002 Location: MONTREAL, CANADA Posts: 4,563	Three to one, i lose. Jane, i've told you before, you and Dawsongirl are the reasons, i came on here in the first place, so i'm joking when i always refer to the FIGHT thing. I wouldn't bother answering you if i didn't respect you, you made good points, i won't be able to answer them for months as i have only the first 50 shows, the next 100 are coming soon. I'm the one who's weird here, i find the the ones in the beginning slow and mundane, i preferred the later shows, but that might be because i'm remembering shows i saw over 20 years ago, when i finally get them and compare, then we'll talk. You're absolutely right, Viv did not want to come back and her agent made these outrageous demands and as i recall from my books, Lucy was willing to let her direct and do other things to keep her, but her advisors told her she should let her go, as Viv was starting to think she WAS the show. They were great together, but Ann Sothern or Audrey Meadows could have replaced her, Lucy needed a foil/partner in crime, i gotta admit though that when i saw the last special recently, you know the Lucy meets the President one where they were together one last time, it was so moving because these two were magic together! Forgive me, i'm a Lucille Ball fanatic, i defend her whenever i can, but like Jane, i realize she wasn't perfect!

10-07-2002, 11:34 AM	#15
SPLAIN I Love Lucy Forum 4000 Club Member Join Date: Mar 04, 2002 Location: MONTREAL, CANADA Posts: 4,563	Finally figured out where the PM's were and had a few to answer from a while back, i'm such an idiot with these computer things, thanks Jane for understanding everything, i will NEVER mention the fight thing again, i want nice friendly discussion between fans, and fans can disagree now and then. People here are very knowledgable, really glad i came here!