Frasier vs Niles

[bingbangbaby]

The more I watch this show, I can see how alike Frasier and Niles are, but also how very different they are, too. I was wondering how things might be different if Niles had Frasier's life situation and Frasier had Niles's life situation.

After seeing how Niles fought to save his marriage and how he still spoke to and even helped Maris after they were divorced, it occurred to me that if Niles had an ex-wife and son in Boston, I don't think he would have ever left Boston to go to Seattle. Especially if he had a son living in Boston. I think that Daphne has a partner for life in him, and that if for some outrageous reason their relationship ever ended in divorce, it wouldn't have been Niles's idea and he would fight as hard if not harder to save it as he did with his marriage to Maris. And if he couldn't stop it from happening, then I think he would always still be right there next to her and their son. I can't picture him ever being able to put distance between himself and his former family, especially if there was a child.

On the flip side, if Frasier had the hots for Daphne ( ugh.) while he was married, do you think he would have pursued her anyway? And if not, then after he had that one childless divorce behind him, do you think he would have waited as long as Niles did to tell Daphne how he felt? And I wonder, with Niles's personality, if Niles would have encouraged Frasier to pursue Daphne after he was divorced or not? It always bugs me that Frasier and sometimes Martin discouraged Niles for so long-- right up until they found out that Daphne shared Niles's feelings, in fact-- and I wonder if Niles (in Frasier's situation, without having feelings for Daphne) would have encouraged or discouraged Frasier to pursue her.
Assuming in this alternate reality that Daphne would have the same feelings for Frasier that she had for Niles, I tend to think Frasier would have screwed it up with her, but that's just me.

Your thoughts?

[Goldilocks]

They wouldn't have had each other's lives because they were both very different people.

Niles was a wimp. *ducks from Niles lovers*. But come on! He was such a push-over! He allowed people (mainly women) to walk all over him. If he would've had an ex-wife and child in Boston, no, he would not have left. He would've stayed in the path of the controlling ex-wife to be dominated.

Frasier, while often a "fool for love", at the end of the day, had a back bone. He wouldn't have waited 7 years to tell Daphne how he felt had he been in Niles' shoes and he had enough gumption to leave Boston and get a life away from Lillith.

You know, in real life, if two brothers were so easily manipulated by women, I'd be wondering what kind of mother they had/have! Like Fraiser and Niles, who were both married to horrible SHREWS (Lillith, Maris); why were they drawn to these types? Were they trying to get Mom's approval?

The way men react/treat women has everything to do with the relationshp with dear old Mom.

I think Frasier, being the die-hard Freudian, would agree!

[bingbangbaby]

Originally Posted by Goldilocks

Niles was a wimp. *ducks from Niles lovers*. But come on! He was such a push-over! He allowed people (mainly women) to walk all over him. If he would've had an ex-wife and child in Boston, no, he would not have left. He would've stayed in the path of the controlling ex-wife to be dominated.

I don't think he would have left either, but I see the reasons a little differently. I think he wouldn't have left his child. If there was no child I don't think he would have had any trouble leaving behind an ex-wife, especially a nasty one like Maris or Lilith. I also don't see him as a guy who enjoys being dominated by women, I see him as a guy who enjoys taking care of his woman and enjoys making her happy and values the relationship and is sometimes taken advantage of for that. I see what you're saying though, but it wasn't every relationship that was like that, only Maris and Mel. The women he dated in between were normal relationships. But granted, other than Daphne, he did seem to be most attracted-- attracted to enough to marry-- to the type of woman who will take advantage of him... or maybe it was the women of the upper class who tended to be that way.

Frasier, while often a "fool for love", at the end of the day, had a back bone. He wouldn't have waited 7 years to tell Daphne how he felt...

I agree with that too, and that's pretty much why I think he would have screwed it up. He screwed up every single relationship he had on that show and it was usually because he couldn't commit or couldn't decide which woman he wanted. Even when he had real feelings for her.
Frasier and Niles were actually almost polar opposites in this way, I think. While Frasier couldn't decide and couldn't commit, Niles was completely committed-- possibly even too committed sometimes, attentive, and willing to do everything he could to keep his relationships together. Even when it wasn't the best thing for him.

You know, in real life, if two brothers were so easily manipulated by women, I'd be wondering what kind of mother they had/have! Like Fraiser and Niles, who were both married to horrible SHREWS (Lillith, Maris); why were they drawn to these types? Were they trying to get Mom's approval?

The way men react/treat women has everything to do with the relationshp with dear old Mom.

I think Frasier, being the die-hard Freudian, would agree!

Interesting point. It would have been nice to know a little more about her and how her relationship with Martin was, too.

[Schmoopie]

Originally Posted by bingbangbaby

The more I watch this show, I can see how alike Frasier and Niles are, but also how very different they are, too. I was wondering how things might be different if Niles had Frasier's life situation and Frasier had Niles's life situation.

After seeing how Niles fought to save his marriage and how he still spoke to and even helped Maris after they were divorced, it occurred to me that if Niles had an ex-wife and son in Boston, I don't think he would have ever left Boston to go to Seattle. Especially if he had a son living in Boston. I think that Daphne has a partner for life in him, and that if for some outrageous reason their relationship ever ended in divorce, it wouldn't have been Niles's idea and he would fight as hard if not harder to save it as he did with his marriage to Maris. And if he couldn't stop it from happening, then I think he would always still be right there next to her and their son. I can't picture him ever being able to put distance between himself and his former family, especially if there was a child.

On the flip side, if Frasier had the hots for Daphne ( ugh.) while he was married, do you think he would have pursued her anyway? And if not, then after he had that one childless divorce behind him, do you think he would have waited as long as Niles did to tell Daphne how he felt? And I wonder, with Niles's personality, if Niles would have encouraged Frasier to pursue Daphne after he was divorced or not? It always bugs me that Frasier and sometimes Martin discouraged Niles for so long-- right up until they found out that Daphne shared Niles's feelings, in fact-- and I wonder if Niles (in Frasier's situation, without having feelings for Daphne) would have encouraged or discouraged Frasier to pursue her.
Assuming in this alternate reality that Daphne would have the same feelings for Frasier that she had for Niles, I tend to think Frasier would have screwed it up with her, but that's just me.

Your thoughts?

Wow, this is so intriguing to read! I never thought about this at all but I think you are absolutely right. Niles wouldn't have left Boston even if he and Maris were divorced. It was so nice to see him work so hard to save his marriage and I felt so sad for him when it was finally over. He was there for Maris all the time. True, he didn't have much of a backbone but I think Daphne made him a stronger person. It took a lot of courage on his part to finally admit that he loved her and when he did, it was only natural that she fell in love with him too. I think he would have fought extremely hard if his and Daphne's marriage had started falling apart.

Which makes me wonder about this whole scenerio about him having Frasier's "life". Do you write fan fiction? I'd love to see how this would play out! I'd write it myself but I have so many ideas for Niles and Daphne stories swirling in my head that I don't have room for any more right now! But seriously I would LOVE to read something like this!

[bingbangbaby]

Originally Posted by Schmoopie

True, he didn't have much of a backbone but I think Daphne made him a stronger person.

I have a really hard time with that statement about him not having a backbone. It bothered me when Goldilocks said it before too, but I sort of let it go because she said she wasn't a Niles fan. I'm not attacking you, Schmoopie, I just know you'll understand my point whereas I wasn't sure Goldilocks would. I can't say he didn't have a backbone because in all honesty, I have always believed he was more of a man when it came to relationships than Frasier was. Sure, Niles could be a wimp *wince* when it came to some things that didn't matter (like bugs or rollercoasters) but who cares about that? But when it came right down to his relationships I never perceived him as not having a backbone, especially with Daphne, because she allowed him to just be himself and not, as he said, have a relationship solely based on expectations or something he's supposed to be. With Maris and Mel, he cherished those relationships and they took advantage of that quality in him. He was always a gentleman and always half of a couple, and it wasn't in him to get ugly with anyone-- those women-- whom he had loved-- included. To me, it wasn't domination, it was Niles surviving a bad situation. And for him, being boorish (as he would say) or getting downright ugly with the women in his life wasn't an option. He was slow to give up on relationships, and would have much rather worked on it than give up. He wanted more than anything to be in it for keeps (more marks of a strong man!). With Daphne, I don't think she 'made him a stronger person' so much as she simply recognized and appreciated the fact that he cherished her and their relationship, and that allowed him to be the man that he always was but never could be with those other two women. Right off the top of my head, here's some examples of Niles showing strength and taking care of the most important things. These are just off the top of my head. There's so many more:

1. When Daphne's mother overstayed her welcome and they decided to put her out, Daphne cried on his shoulder and he turned right around and called her mother back in and took control of the situation and fixed everything on the spot, to the delight of both Daphne and her mother.

2. When he was in the hospital for his heart surgery, he recognized Daphne was terrified and he calmly consoled and reassured her just before he went into surgery.

3. The entire second half of Something Borrowed Someone Blue shows nothing but determination and strength on Niles's part. He hyperventilated when Mel interrupted his and Frasier's conversation, but after he understood Daphne might share his feelings, there was no hyperventilating or even faltering or nervousness at all when Mel interrupted again during his and Daphne's conversation. He spoke clearly and confidently to both Donny and Mel when they interrupted and he shuffled them right back out of the room. It was clear to me that DHP was conveying in his performance that Niles had conviction in his actions and that he was taking control of that situation. It was there again out on the balcony when he told Daphne that she doesn't want to spend her life thinking about a chance she didn't take, and it was there again when he let her go.

4. The entire Mother Load episode. Once again, Niles supported Daphne and took control of that situation.

5. Episode Daphne Returns. Yes, Niles was rude and disrespectful at her welcome home party, but it was because he was hurt. He recognized that he was hurt and that he hurt Daphne and he came right back with the kind of sincere, honest apology that women only get from a real man.

You'd never hear an apology like that from Frasier. Never. Time and time again Frasier acted idiotically with women and instead of apologizing, made it worse by saying or doing something to devalue the woman. Even when he did try to apologize it never turned out to be sincere. How many times did he try to date more than one woman at once and when they found out, he'd say something like "please come back... either one of you!" And I know that Niles never, ever would have ran away and left Daphne to get arrested at that protest to save the bookstore. Niles wouldn't have left any woman there that he had brought there. Think about Frasier's history on that show with women and relationships, and with the exception of an occasional situation with Roz, you'll be hard pressed to find a time that Frasier showed a backbone. I challenge anyone to watch the series and besides Roz, find a time when Frasier did the right thing with a woman or a relationship. Then compare your notes with Niles's actions throughout the series, and tell me which one of them is the real man.

As I said, I'm not attacking you, Schmoopie, I know you understand this too, but I needed to say it for everyone else. And I feel better now.

[bingbangbaby]

Originally Posted by Schmoopie

It took a lot of courage on his part to finally admit that he loved her...

I guess it did, but again, I just feel like him not saying it before was less about courage and more about timing and him not wanting to mess it up by saying it at the wrong time. I have always thought he didn't say it before because every time he wanted to Daphne said something that made it clear that the timing wasn't right. Once he had a clue that she might share his feelings he brought her right in and said within the first couple of minutes that she was there. I tend to think his hesitation for 6 years was 1) he was married for much of the time; 2) he was a little gun-shy after his rough divorce, plus she was with Donny; and 3) Daphne was important to him and he didn't want to jump the gun and ruin something that could have a real chance if he pushed it too soon or pushed it when she gave him the idea that the timing wasn't right. I have looked and looked for a moment somewhere in the series when I thought he might have been able to tell her how he felt and it might have been the right time, and I have yet to find one. I actually was thinking of starting a topic about it to see if anyone else could find a moment, too.

Which makes me wonder about this whole scenerio about him having Frasier's "life". Do you write fan fiction? I'd love to see how this would play out! I'd write it myself but I have so many ideas for Niles and Daphne stories swirling in my head that I don't have room for any more right now! But seriously I would LOVE to read something like this!

I have written some before for another show that I like, but it wasn't much, only about 3 or 4 stories. I'm actually a writer and a teacher and when I do write, it's usually something for money or publication. Maybe someday I'll write a Niles and Daphne fanfic.

Thanks for reading all my opinions. Like I said, I'm not attacking you, I just knew you'd understand. To me, and maybe to you too, once you've watched the show enough, David Hyde Pierce's portrayal of what kind of man he characterized Niles to be is crystal clear and I just can't let another person misunderstand him by judging him simply by what they think they see only on the outside, that's all.

[bingbangbaby]

I guess before I shut up for awhile I should say that I didn't hate Frasier. He had a lot of good qualities and he was generally a good guy. He was better at keeping the family dynamic than Niles was, meaning Martin, Frasier, Niles and Daphne as his family, and he was a good brother to Niles-- a better brother to Niles than Niles was to him. Frasier was better at dealing with Martin than Niles was, and he was a good friend to Roz. He was probably a bit more well rounded than Niles was too (Frasier could catch a banana ) He just didn't have good judgement-- no, he had apalling judgement-- when it came to how to treat a significant other or how to act in a romantic relationship.

[Schmoopie]

Originally Posted by bingbangbaby

I guess before I shut up for awhile I should say that I didn't hate Frasier. He had a lot of good qualities and he was generally a good guy. He was better at keeping the family dynamic than Niles was, meaning Martin, Frasier, Niles and Daphne as his family, and he was a good brother to Niles-- a better brother to Niles than Niles was to him. Frasier was better at dealing with Martin than Niles was, and he was a good friend to Roz. He was probably a bit more well rounded than Niles was too (Frasier could catch a banana ) He just didn't have good judgement-- no, he had apalling judgement-- when it came to how to treat a significant other or how to act in a romantic relationship.

I didn't take anything you said the wrong way and I know you weren't attacking me but now I feel bad for saying that about Niles not having a backbone. And I only feel bad at myself. Not because you mentioned it! I guess I didn't realize that I even said it! I was just quoting what was said before. He wasn't a wimp at all because you could see that he wanted to stand on his own and so forth; especially when he wanted to tell Daphne how he felt about her and so forth. I think a lot of that 'insecurity" if you will, was because of Maris and Mel to be honest.

But I just love finding other people who love Niles as much as I do! And I love all the things you pointed out in your list of episodes. Makes me want to watch them all again! Not that I need an excuse!


I like Frasier too, but you're right. He never really apologized to any of them. I absolutely LOVED that scene where Niles and Daphne had that fight and he was about ready to walk out and turned right around and apologized. That was wonderful....

[bingbangbaby]

Originally Posted by Schmoopie

I didn't take anything you said the wrong way and I know you weren't attacking me but now I feel bad for saying that about Niles not having a backbone. And I only feel bad at myself. Not because you mentioned it! I guess I didn't realize that I even said it! I was just quoting what was said before.

I sort of knew it was an off-handed comment because I know you are a Niles fan too. I was really just taking the opportunity to share my opinion with anyone reading who might not have a full understanding of the character. Because I think once you really understand the character (as Daphne did, which is why she fell in love with him) you really can't help but see what a gem he is, faults and all.
I know, I take this stuff entirely too seriously. I can't help it. I just love David Hyde Pierce and this layered character that he embodied. You really have to watch and study the show probably more than most people would to really begin to appreciate the more subtle layers and depth that he gave to the Niles character. But that's the beauty of it... his performance was so stellar and so all-emcompassing that the more you watch, the more dimensions you find in his delivery.

I absolutely LOVED that scene where Niles and Daphne had that fight and he was about ready to walk out and turned right around and apologized. That was wonderful....

Me too. That's another good example to add to that list. I also love the scene when they have the professor over to test Daphne's psychic powers and she talked about when she first started to believe she was psychic. She said it's always been a part of who she was, and Niles was listening intently when it appeared to occur to him that maybe this wasn't a good idea after all, and he immediately stopped him from giving the results. I think that Daphne was really lucky that Niles was as intelligent and as tuned in as he was and could see the ramifications of something like that in time to stop the professor, because I think something like that (the professor possibly saying she wasn't psychic) could have put a wedge between them and maybe even could have torn them apart eventually, if Daphne ended up resenting and blaming Niles for taking away that "part of who she was." It was like in one short moment he was able to weigh out the scenarios and decide that knowing for sure whether or not she was psychic for no other reason than to prove that he was right and she was wrong was a stupid and unnecessary and dangerous chance to take for the consequences it could bring to their relationship, and that she was so much more precious and important to him than that. Many men would have been so focused on being right and proving to her that he was right, that such insight wouldn't have entered their minds. And then his reasons to her why he had changed his mind were simply beautiful. And that is one of the moments that make me love that character.
By the way, that's from The Wizard and Roz in case anyone cares to rewatch.

[Schmoopie]

Originally Posted by bingbangbaby

I sort of knew it was an off-handed comment because I know you are a Niles fan too. I was really just taking the opportunity to share my opinion with anyone reading who might not have a full understanding of the character. Because I think once you really understand the character (as Daphne did, which is why she fell in love with him) you really can't help but see what a gem he is, faults and all.
I know, I take this stuff entirely too seriously. I can't help it. I just love David Hyde Pierce and this layered character that he embodied. You really have to watch and study the show probably more than most people would to really begin to appreciate the more subtle layers and depth that he gave to the Niles character. But that's the beauty of it... his performance was so stellar and so all-emcompassing that the more you watch, the more dimensions you find in his delivery.

Me too. That's another good example to add to that list. I also love the scene when they have the professor over to test Daphne's psychic powers and she talked about when she first started to believe she was psychic. She said it's always been a part of who she was, and Niles was listening intently when it appeared to occur to him that maybe this wasn't a good idea after all, and he immediately stopped him from giving the results. I think that Daphne was really lucky that Niles was as intelligent and as tuned in as he was and could see the ramifications of something like that in time to stop the professor, because I think something like that (the professor possibly saying she wasn't psychic) could have put a wedge between them and maybe even could have torn them apart eventually, if Daphne ended up resenting and blaming Niles for taking away that "part of who she was." It was like in one short moment he was able to weigh out the scenarios and decide that knowing for sure whether or not she was psychic for no other reason than to prove that he was right and she was wrong was a stupid and unnecessary and dangerous chance to take for the consequences it could bring to their relationship, and that she was so much more precious and important to him than that. Many men would have been so focused on being right and proving to her that he was right, that such insight wouldn't have entered their minds. And then his reasons to her why he had changed his mind were simply beautiful. And that is one of the moments that make me love that character.
By the way, that's from The Wizard and Roz in case anyone cares to rewatch.

I agree, and I'll have to watch The Wizard and Roz again. Haven't seen it in a long time. But seriously, the one thing that kept me watching Frasier after I started watching it out of curiosity was David's portrayal of Niles. Just from watching a few episodes, it grew from a like of Niles to falling "in love" with his character to wanting to find out more about DHP to this obsession that I have now.... And that's pretty much all because of him, although I did have a slight push toward watching Frasier in the first place from Kristen!

[Pat]

The writers where absolutely brilliant. Who would have ever thought that a character so close to the main character (not to mention the exact profession) would have worked out so well for the show.

Even David Hyde Pierce couldn't think it would work after he accepted the part in the beginning.