A Few Observations Of Where 'The Mary Tyler Moore Show' Could Have Done Better...... - Sitcoms Online Message Boards

Brian Damage · 10-08-2011, 11:59 AM

Don't get me wrong, the show was great and truly a classic amongst classics. With that said, however, I did notice some things that perhaps could've made the show even better or even stronger than it was.

Here are my observations and tell me what you think....

1. The MTM Show should have kept John Amos: While Amos became a bigger star on Good Times, we all know how that turned out. It would've been nice to see more ethnic diversity on the show. Gordy could've been given a bigger role within the show.

2. Penny Marshall should have been made a regular cast member: Again, Penny eventually went on to bigger and better things with Laverne & Shirley, but after Rhoda left, there was a huge void on the show and in Mary's life. Penny's character could've possibly filled that void.

3. Sue Ann Nivens should have been given a spinoff....not Betty White!: I know, I know, Betty was Sue Ann, but what I meant by that was give the Sue Ann character her own show INSTEAD of giving the actress Betty White her own show, which failed.

4. Get A Big Name Star to Portray Mary's Infamous Ex: Originally I thought of Dick Van Dyke, but I guess that would have caused riots in TV Land...LOL

5. Have Bob & Emily Hartley Crossover onto TMTMS: Pretty self explanatory and I think it would have been cool to see...

Move the show from the Saturday time slot to another day: I realize TV viewing was much different back then, but I am pretty sure a day during the week might have made this show #1!!!

Rezny@gmail.com · 10-08-2011, 12:19 PM

Why would it have been good to have more ethnic diversity??

Brian Damage · 10-08-2011, 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rezny@gmail.com

Why would it have been good to have more ethnic diversity??

Because there wasn't much of it...

Dianne3 · 10-08-2011, 03:18 PM

Sorry Brian, I am going to have to disagree with a few of your points.

When MTM was on Saturday night's, it was a big night for watching TV. AITF was on Saturday nights and it had a five year run as No.1.

You can't begrduge either John Amos or Penny Marshall or anyone else when they get a chance to star in their own show.
Regardless of how Good Times turned out eventually, John Amos got to be the father on the first show to feature an African-American family.

This is my personal opinion, but I don't like Sue Ann Nivens. I don't care for the MTM episodes that feature her and I don't think her character was likeable for her own show.

You got to remember that when MTM premiered, there was not a lot of ethnic diversity on TV in general. It wasn't till the mid-70's that you saw more diversity.

Marvo301 · 10-08-2011, 03:37 PM

Since Mary and her husband Grant Tinker made a deliberate choice not to have any TDVDS cast members appear on TMTMS there's no way they would cast Dick as Mary's ex. Perhaps they could have cast the man who was the runner up for the role of Robert Petrie, Johnny Carson!

Kristen · 10-08-2011, 04:00 PM

But then Carson couldn't have played himself in "Mary's Big Party," hehe!

I really think Penny wouldn't have been that great of a fit as a regular. B/c Mary already had a best friend in Rhoda, and nobody could ever take her place. And she had Georgette to confide in after Rhoda moved. So I kind of think Penny would have been unnecessary.

As for a Sue Ann spinoff, I think we saw in Phyllis that some characters just work better in supporting roles rather than leading. Not to say that Betty's not extremely talented, but I just don't think a whole show based around Sue Ann would work.

- Kristen

Brian Damage · 10-08-2011, 05:14 PM

Great observations everybody! I had no idea about Johnny Carson being runner up for Rob Petrie. That is so cool to know.

scotsguy · 10-09-2011, 12:31 PM

I agree Sue Ann would have been toned down for a spinoff and as a result,the show wouldn't have lasted.

John Amos went on to "Good Times" and later "Roots",Gordy wasn't a big part on MTMS he got far more to do in the two shows mentioned.

Retro4Life · 10-09-2011, 02:28 PM

Interesting observations, Brian. Let me take them one by one.

1) Agreed, but...I'm not sure it was possible. I thought Amos was determined to leave, and honestly, given his almost non existent role on the show, I can't blame him. I think it would have been neat to see Gordy develop more and that he would have been good for the mix of characters, though.

2) Maaybe. While I liked Georgette, she never really filled Rhoda's shoes as Mary's confidente/best friend (more like a little sister). Marshall had great comedic chops, but I'm not sure she could have made that much of an impact on the show, coming four years after Rhoda (a VERY popular character).

3) Disagree. Loved Betty, thought the Sue Ann character added some malevolence to the show, but as an ongoing character, she wouldn't have been sympathetic enough to carry her own show.

4) Maybe for one or two eps, a big name would have been neat, but the show was about Mary and I didn't want to see too much of her ex. I think like most guys out there, we liked Mary single.

5) That would have been neat, I agree!

6) The Saturday slot was perfect at the time. Gosh, that was quite a block and as a kid aged 6-13, when the show aired, I wasn't going out at that time anyway so it was perfect for me, and obviously, a lot of Americans.

Brian Damage · 10-09-2011, 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Retro4Life

Interesting observations, Brian. Let me take them one by one.

1) Agreed, but...I'm not sure it was possible. I thought Amos was determined to leave, and honestly, given his almost non existent role on the show, I can't blame him. I think it would have been neat to see Gordy develop more and that he would have been good for the mix of characters, though.

2) Maaybe. While I liked Georgette, she never really filled Rhoda's shoes as Mary's confidente/best friend (more like a little sister). Marshall had great comedic chops, but I'm not sure she could have made that much of an impact on the show, coming four years after Rhoda (a VERY popular character).

3) Disagree. Loved Betty, thought the Sue Ann character added some malevolence to the show, but as an ongoing character, she wouldn't have been sympathetic enough to carry her own show.

4) Maybe for one or two eps, a big name would have been neat, but the show was about Mary and I didn't want to see too much of her ex. I think like most guys out there, we liked Mary single.

5) That would have been neat, I agree!

6) The Saturday slot was perfect at the time. Gosh, that was quite a block and as a kid aged 6-13, when the show aired, I wasn't going out at that time anyway so it was perfect for me, and obviously, a lot of Americans.

Excellent responses retro!

Let me just say this about Sue Ann getting her own show, If they could give one to the unlikeable Phyllis Lindstrom, why not Sue Ann? I do understand that Sue Ann was a bit hard to take at times, but didn't they give Betty her own series anyway? I really don't remember much of it, but from what I heard, it was basically Sue Ann anyway with the volume turned down.

As for Saturday night viewing, that makes a lot of sense, what the heck happened to it then?!?

Retro4Life · 10-09-2011, 05:09 PM

^ Saturday night viewing went down the toilet in the 90's, I'd say. NBC had a nice (but less powerful and classic) block of shows with Golden Girls, FOL, Amen, etc, but after that seems like the networks, in their insane quest to attract 17 year olds and ignore anyone who could legally get into an R rated movie, just gave up and assumed their target audience was out break dancing or binge drinking or whatever the moppets of today do.

Phyllis is an example of a show, IMO, that had good writing and acting but just never connected with the audience because of the prickliness of the main character, and I fear that a show about Sue Ann would have been the same.

Brian Damage · 10-09-2011, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Retro4Life

^ Saturday night viewing went down the toilet in the 90's, I'd say. NBC had a nice (but less powerful and classic) block of shows with Golden Girls, FOL, Amen, etc, but after that seems like the networks, in their insane quest to attract 17 year olds and ignore anyone who could legally get into an R rated movie, just gave up and assumed their target audience was out break dancing or binge drinking or whatever the moppets of today do.

Phyllis is an example of a show, IMO, that had good writing and acting but just never connected with the audience because of the prickliness of the main character, and I fear that a show about Sue Ann would have been the same.

you are probably right about a Sue Ann spin-off, it's not like the Betty White show did any better. lol

As for Saturday night viewing, that seems to be so true.

OH Nuts! · 10-12-2011, 04:10 PM

Interesting points Brian!

#1 I really liked John Amos on TMTMS much more than on Good Times, and I wished his character Gordy had been developed more. Gordy had a nice even-tempered quality that balanced off Ted and Lou. Maybe if TMTMS had given him more visibility, he might not have opted for Good Times (gag - a misnomer for a show if there ever was one)

#2 Penny is a great actress and having her prominent on TMTMS would have worked nicely. The show's loss as she did a stellar job in all her other TV work (esp. Laverne & Shirely) and LOVED LOVED LOVED her as Myrna Turner in The Odd Couple.

#3 I agree with Retro4Life that Sue Ann was much to ugly (and shallow) a character to revolve a show around. But Betty is awesome, so it might have worked. But I liked it so much more when she went on to do a totally different character in The Golden Girls. IMO there is no such thing as too much Betty.

Regarding #4 and #5 I don't see any need for these routes - but that could just be my take. Also, I think it would have been kind of nice to have a handsome charming (non-famous) actor play Mary's bf - and even cooler if in later yrs that person had turned out to be big star (its always cool to see a big star in something before they strike it big)

gopyle · 10-22-2011, 09:58 AM

Limiting the screen time of Georgette and SueAnn would have been an improvement. Each was OK in small doses but thry were way overused in later seasons.
Losing Rhoda was a big blow to the show, in my opinion. The Penny Marshall idea may have some merit, but she would have been a minor player here as opposed to what she became with L & S.

Gordy had good potential as a character. I would have liked to have seen more of him.

10-08-2011, 11:59 AM	#1
Brian Damage I'm Rich Bitch Forum Icon Join Date: Feb 03, 2002 Location: What Ain't No Country I Ever Heard Of...They Speak English in What? Posts: 63,107	A Few Observations Of Where 'The Mary Tyler Moore Show' Could Have Done Better...... Don't get me wrong, the show was great and truly a classic amongst classics. With that said, however, I did notice some things that perhaps could've made the show even better or even stronger than it was. Here are my observations and tell me what you think.... 1. The MTM Show should have kept John Amos: While Amos became a bigger star on Good Times, we all know how that turned out. It would've been nice to see more ethnic diversity on the show. Gordy could've been given a bigger role within the show. 2. Penny Marshall should have been made a regular cast member: Again, Penny eventually went on to bigger and better things with Laverne & Shirley, but after Rhoda left, there was a huge void on the show and in Mary's life. Penny's character could've possibly filled that void. 3. Sue Ann Nivens should have been given a spinoff....not Betty White!: I know, I know, Betty was Sue Ann, but what I meant by that was give the Sue Ann character her own show INSTEAD of giving the actress Betty White her own show, which failed. 4. Get A Big Name Star to Portray Mary's Infamous Ex: Originally I thought of Dick Van Dyke, but I guess that would have caused riots in TV Land...LOL 5. Have Bob & Emily Hartley Crossover onto TMTMS: Pretty self explanatory and I think it would have been cool to see... Move the show from the Saturday time slot to another day: I realize TV viewing was much different back then, but I am pretty sure a day during the week might have made this show #1!!!
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10-08-2011, 04:00 PM	#6
Kristen Member Forum 4000 Club Member Join Date: Jul 17, 2000 Location: New York, USA Posts: 4,042	But then Carson couldn't have played himself in "Mary's Big Party," hehe! I really think Penny wouldn't have been that great of a fit as a regular. B/c Mary already had a best friend in Rhoda, and nobody could ever take her place. And she had Georgette to confide in after Rhoda moved. So I kind of think Penny would have been unnecessary. As for a Sue Ann spinoff, I think we saw in Phyllis that some characters just work better in supporting roles rather than leading. Not to say that Betty's not extremely talented, but I just don't think a whole show based around Sue Ann would work. - Kristen
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10-09-2011, 02:28 PM	#9
Retro4Life Accept No Substitutes Forum Veteran Join Date: Feb 04, 2009 Location: IL Posts: 6,708	Interesting observations, Brian. Let me take them one by one. 1) Agreed, but...I'm not sure it was possible. I thought Amos was determined to leave, and honestly, given his almost non existent role on the show, I can't blame him. I think it would have been neat to see Gordy develop more and that he would have been good for the mix of characters, though. 2) Maaybe. While I liked Georgette, she never really filled Rhoda's shoes as Mary's confidente/best friend (more like a little sister). Marshall had great comedic chops, but I'm not sure she could have made that much of an impact on the show, coming four years after Rhoda (a VERY popular character). 3) Disagree. Loved Betty, thought the Sue Ann character added some malevolence to the show, but as an ongoing character, she wouldn't have been sympathetic enough to carry her own show. 4) Maybe for one or two eps, a big name would have been neat, but the show was about Mary and I didn't want to see too much of her ex. I think like most guys out there, we liked Mary single. 5) That would have been neat, I agree! 6) The Saturday slot was perfect at the time. Gosh, that was quite a block and as a kid aged 6-13, when the show aired, I wasn't going out at that time anyway so it was perfect for me, and obviously, a lot of Americans.
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10-08-2011, 12:19 PM	#2
Rezny@gmail.com Member Senior Member Join Date: Jul 20, 2007 Location: Nebraska Posts: 2,675	Why would it have been good to have more ethnic diversity??

10-08-2011, 03:18 PM	#4
Dianne3 Member Senior Member Join Date: Aug 07, 2002 Posts: 1,058	Sorry Brian, I am going to have to disagree with a few of your points. When MTM was on Saturday night's, it was a big night for watching TV. AITF was on Saturday nights and it had a five year run as No.1. You can't begrduge either John Amos or Penny Marshall or anyone else when they get a chance to star in their own show. Regardless of how Good Times turned out eventually, John Amos got to be the father on the first show to feature an African-American family. This is my personal opinion, but I don't like Sue Ann Nivens. I don't care for the MTM episodes that feature her and I don't think her character was likeable for her own show. You got to remember that when MTM premiered, there was not a lot of ethnic diversity on TV in general. It wasn't till the mid-70's that you saw more diversity.

10-08-2011, 03:37 PM	#5
Marvo301 I'm NOT a Blockhead! Forum Celebrity Join Date: May 17, 2002 Location: The Great White North Posts: 21,460	Since Mary and her husband Grant Tinker made a deliberate choice not to have any TDVDS cast members appear on TMTMS there's no way they would cast Dick as Mary's ex. Perhaps they could have cast the man who was the runner up for the role of Robert Petrie, Johnny Carson!
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10-08-2011, 05:14 PM	#7
Brian Damage I'm Rich Bitch Forum Icon Join Date: Feb 03, 2002 Location: What Ain't No Country I Ever Heard Of...They Speak English in What? Posts: 63,107	Great observations everybody! I had no idea about Johnny Carson being runner up for Rob Petrie. That is so cool to know.

10-09-2011, 12:31 PM	#8
scotsguy Member Forum Regular Join Date: Nov 25, 2002 Location: Edinburgh,Scotland Posts: 696	I agree Sue Ann would have been toned down for a spinoff and as a result,the show wouldn't have lasted. John Amos went on to "Good Times" and later "Roots",Gordy wasn't a big part on MTMS he got far more to do in the two shows mentioned.

10-09-2011, 05:09 PM	#11
Retro4Life Accept No Substitutes Forum Veteran Join Date: Feb 04, 2009 Location: IL Posts: 6,708	^ Saturday night viewing went down the toilet in the 90's, I'd say. NBC had a nice (but less powerful and classic) block of shows with Golden Girls, FOL, Amen, etc, but after that seems like the networks, in their insane quest to attract 17 year olds and ignore anyone who could legally get into an R rated movie, just gave up and assumed their target audience was out break dancing or binge drinking or whatever the moppets of today do. Phyllis is an example of a show, IMO, that had good writing and acting but just never connected with the audience because of the prickliness of the main character, and I fear that a show about Sue Ann would have been the same.

10-12-2011, 04:10 PM	#13
OH Nuts! Member Forum King Join Date: Feb 15, 2005 Posts: 133,383	Interesting points Brian! #1 I really liked John Amos on TMTMS much more than on Good Times, and I wished his character Gordy had been developed more. Gordy had a nice even-tempered quality that balanced off Ted and Lou. Maybe if TMTMS had given him more visibility, he might not have opted for Good Times (gag - a misnomer for a show if there ever was one) #2 Penny is a great actress and having her prominent on TMTMS would have worked nicely. The show's loss as she did a stellar job in all her other TV work (esp. Laverne & Shirely) and LOVED LOVED LOVED her as Myrna Turner in The Odd Couple. #3 I agree with Retro4Life that Sue Ann was much to ugly (and shallow) a character to revolve a show around. But Betty is awesome, so it might have worked. But I liked it so much more when she went on to do a totally different character in The Golden Girls. IMO there is no such thing as too much Betty. Regarding #4 and #5 I don't see any need for these routes - but that could just be my take. Also, I think it would have been kind of nice to have a handsome charming (non-famous) actor play Mary's bf - and even cooler if in later yrs that person had turned out to be big star (its always cool to see a big star in something before they strike it big)

10-22-2011, 09:58 AM	#14
gopyle Member Frequent Poster Join Date: Oct 22, 2011 Posts: 235	Limiting the screen time of Georgette and SueAnn would have been an improvement. Each was OK in small doses but thry were way overused in later seasons. Losing Rhoda was a big blow to the show, in my opinion. The Penny Marshall idea may have some merit, but she would have been a minor player here as opposed to what she became with L & S. Gordy had good potential as a character. I would have liked to have seen more of him.