Adam’s “Jumped the Shark” TV Moments…

[Adamantium]

First of all, I don’t like the phrase “Jumped the Shark.” However, since that’s a common phrase, I’ll use it so you know what this thread is about. To me, these are the real moments or points when a show made a mistake or “went bad” or whatever.

I Love Lucy: It seems that most people say ILL jumped when they made the move to Connecticut but I disagree. While the show was always good from beginning to end, the only negative to me would have to be with the Ricardos and the Mertzes going on their second big trip - to Europe. When the four went to Hollywood during the fourth season, it was fun. We saw them get ready, go, be on the road and finally arrive in Hollywood. We laughed as Lucy met all these big stars and got involved with them in one way or another. We even saw them leave Hollywood and return home. That was a fun trip for the viewers to join Lucy, Ricky, Fred and Ethel on. However, when they went to Europe it wasn’t as fun. Oh sure there were classic episodes in that trip. It’s just what it became. “I Love Lucy” was now a show that followed these four characters on their vacations and showed Lucy’s reactions to meeting celebrities. Yes, the show was still good to the end but all these vacations, in my opinion were a mistake for the series.

Ellen: I think most people agree that this show jumped when Ellen came out of the closet. The coming out episode was such a classic and perhaps the show should have ended there. The fifth season was all about Ellen being gay. That wasn’t the main problem. I mean that was a big change in the show and certainly Ellen just figuring out she’s gay would lead to all of her gay firsts. The problem was the lack of friends. In the past Joe, Paige, Spence and Audrey had been in every episode (that they were cast members for). Now, suddenly they were only there sometimes. Ellen’s apartment was gone in favor of her new house. She didn’t work at Buy the Book anymore (which was a secondary set to her apartment in the previous seasons). The show was just so different. Yes, those episodes are funny on their own but as part of the sitcom “Ellen”, they are just a disappointment.

Wings: To me, this show had a slow start. It didn’t really get good until season three and once it got good it remained good almost til the end. The marriage of Joe and Helen might be where some people say it jumped. Not to me. They were a couple and it’s logical that they got married. Their wedding was dumb with Joe getting his hand stuck in a toilet but that’s just one episode - not a turning point in the show. The departure of a fan favorite character, Lowell is another JTS moment for many. I agree that he was missed but in retrospect, the 7th season was still quite good without him. To me, it would have to be season eight. The show took a very cynical turn right from the beginning of that final season. Brian went from being a successful (for the most part) womanizer to a pathetic loser who still wanted women but couldn’t get any. Antonio got worse and worse to the point where he seemed suicidal. Joe became goofy. The show revolved further around the misadventures of Joe, Brian, Helen and Casey, their living together, etc. Yes, the once great sitcom ended with a dud for a final season. However, the series finale is wonderful. One of my all-time favorite series finales. So season eight isn’t all bad for that reason alone.

I’ll add more later.

[Adamantium]

For this thread, I'm trying to put Jump the Shark moments that were in the control of the writing and production staff. Mistakes they made regarding storylines or the direction of the show.

[DSfan]

Originally Posted by Adamantium

For this thread, I'm trying to put Jump the Shark moments that were in the control of the writing and production staff. Mistakes they made regarding storylines or the direction of the show.

I just want to ask a kind of question or clarify something I find is confusing: jumping the shark is when a show begins to decline and become worse in quality. So, when trying to pinpoint a jump the shark "moment" this would technically be the moment immediately following whenever a certain show was at its peak, right? Because anything after a peak is obviously a decline. I find most of the common jump the shark moments that people talk about are let's say more "memorable" moments of when a show was worse than it had been before. This is a lot of rambling on my part but I wanted to know what you guys are using as criteria for jump the shark moments. I find jump the shark should be more of a period in the show's life than one moment. For example, with Boy Meets World I think most people would agree that once the show focused more on college life and added Rachel, Angela, and Jack as main characters, the show was worse. So I would say that the college episodes are when it jumped the shark. But I just find the term doesn't really work like even in a show's decline there are still many good-above average episodes that are enjoyable. I don't think we can fairly pinpoint one specific moment of a TV show and say it jumped the shark. This problem also is because we can only look back and decide when something jumped as when a show isn't finished we don't know what to expect.

I know this was long but if anyone kind of gets what I was getting at please elaborate or point out if any of what I was said you think may be flawed in some way.

[Adamantium]

Originally Posted by DSfan

I just want to ask a kind of question or clarify something I find is confusing: jumping the shark is when a show begins to decline and become worse in quality. So, when trying to pinpoint a jump the shark "moment" this would technically be the moment immediately following whenever a certain show was at its peak, right? Because anything after a peak is obviously a decline. I find most of the common jump the shark moments that people talk about are let's say more "memorable" moments of when a show was worse than it had been before. This is a lot of rambling on my part but I wanted to know what you guys are using as criteria for jump the shark moments. I find jump the shark should be more of a period in the show's life than one moment. For example, with Boy Meets World I think most people would agree that once the show focused more on college life and added Rachel, Angela, and Jack as main characters, the show was worse. So I would say that the college episodes are when it jumped the shark. But I just find the term doesn't really work like even in a show's decline there are still many good-above average episodes that are enjoyable. I don't think we can fairly pinpoint one specific moment of a TV show and say it jumped the shark. This problem also is because we can only look back and decide when something jumped as when a show isn't finished we don't know what to expect.

I know this was long but if anyone kind of gets what I was getting at please elaborate or point out if any of what I was said you think may be flawed in some way.

Yeah, I've had trouble with the term "Jump the Shark." I'm only using it now because people are familiar with it. It doesn't make sense to me. It gets it's name from a "Happy Days" episode, yet most fans would say the show jumped when Richie and Ralph left. "Happy Days" seems to be the only show where they focus on one episode with a goofy plot rather than a serious cast change or a huge change in the show.

In my opinion, "Boy Meets World" was so much fun in the later years that I often think back on those seasons more fondly. Though after watching some of the early years on DVD, I think season three is probably the show at it's peek.

[DSfan]

Originally Posted by Adamantium

Yeah, I've had trouble with the term "Jump the Shark." I'm only using it now because people are familiar with it. It doesn't make sense to me. It gets it's name from a "Happy Days" episode, yet most fans would say the show jumped when Richie and Ralph left. "Happy Days" seems to be the only show where they focus on one episode with a goofy plot rather than a serious cast change or a huge change in the show.

In my opinion, "Boy Meets World" was so much fun in the later years that I often think back on those seasons more fondly. Though after watching some of the early years on DVD, I think season three is probably the show at it's peek.

Well, I enjoyed the entire series but I really like seasons 3 and 4 the best. At that point, it was more about Cory and Shawn's antics and Topanga on the side along with Cory's family and Mr. Feeny. I also really loved Harvey, Frankie, and Joey the rat. Mr. Turner was a very underrated character on the show. The college episodes bothered me (although I still watch reruns and like them all) in that it was always Cory and Topanga bickering. I thought it was at its best when it was more focused on Cory and Shawn. I didn't particularly like how the writers always made us feel sorry for Eric and how dumb he was - they always had him doing some kind of weird, unrealistic things. Like when he gave the money to the man to go send for another monkey. Rachel was kind of useless, no? Another thing to discuss: I've always thought back and forth if "The War" episode would have been a good final episode. It was really heartbreaking and then worked out in the end. I loved it the first time I saw the episode.

[rollo's girl]

Originally Posted by Adamantium

First of all, I don’t like the phrase “Jumped the Shark.” However, since that’s a common phrase, I’ll use it so you know what this thread is about. To me, these are the real moments or points when a show made a mistake or “went bad” or whatever.

I Love Lucy: It seems that most people say ILL jumped when they made the move to Connecticut but I disagree. While the show was always good from beginning to end, the only negative to me would have to be with the Ricardos and the Mertzes going on their second big trip - to Europe. When the four went to Hollywood during the fourth season, it was fun. We saw them get ready, go, be on the road and finally arrive in Hollywood. We laughed as Lucy met all these big stars and got involved with them in one way or another. We even saw them leave Hollywood and return home. That was a fun trip for the viewers to join Lucy, Ricky, Fred and Ethel on. However, when they went to Europe it wasn’t as fun. Oh sure there were classic episodes in that trip. It’s just what it became. “I Love Lucy” was now a show that followed these four characters on their vacations and showed Lucy’s reactions to meeting celebrities. Yes, the show was still good to the end but all these vacations, in my opinion were a mistake for the series.

Ellen: I think most people agree that this show jumped when Ellen came out of the closet. The coming out episode was such a classic and perhaps the show should have ended there. The fifth season was all about Ellen being gay. That wasn’t the main problem. I mean that was a big change in the show and certainly Ellen just figuring out she’s gay would lead to all of her gay firsts. The problem was the lack of friends. In the past Joe, Paige, Spence and Audrey had been in every episode (that they were cast members for). Now, suddenly they were only there sometimes. Ellen’s apartment was gone in favor of her new house. She didn’t work at Buy the Book anymore (which was a secondary set to her apartment in the previous seasons). The show was just so different. Yes, those episodes are funny on their own but as part of the sitcom “Ellen”, they are just a disappointment.

Wings: To me, this show had a slow start. It didn’t really get good until season three and once it got good it remained good almost til the end. The marriage of Joe and Helen might be where some people say it jumped. Not to me. They were a couple and it’s logical that they got married. Their wedding was dumb with Joe getting his hand stuck in a toilet but that’s just one episode - not a turning point in the show. The departure of a fan favorite character, Lowell is another JTS moment for many. I agree that he was missed but in retrospect, the 7th season was still quite good without him. To me, it would have to be season eight. The show took a very cynical turn right from the beginning of that final season. Brian went from being a successful (for the most part) womanizer to a pathetic loser who still wanted women but couldn’t get any. Antonio got worse and worse to the point where he seemed suicidal. Joe became goofy. The show revolved further around the misadventures of Joe, Brian, Helen and Casey, their living together, etc. Yes, the once great sitcom ended with a dud for a final season. However, the series finale is wonderful. One of my all-time favorite series finales. So season eight isn’t all bad for that reason alone.

I’ll add more later.

I respectfully disagree about I Love Lucy. The Hollywood and Europe vacation series produced some of the most memorable episodes of the show. For instance, when Lucy meets William Holden and catches her nose on fire, Lucy doing the ingenious mirror-image bit with the great Harpo Marx and Lucy's Italian Movie where she squares off with the the grape stomper, to name a few. Plus this show was WAY ahead of its' time having guest stars play themselves and hence possibly the first "celebrity stalker". I love the vacation episodes and think the show wouldn't have been the same without them. Just think what we would've missed!!

[BLT]

If you.re talking about self-inflicted damage bt writers i'd say Newsradio season 5. Phil Hartman's murder was out of the staff's control, but other creative decisions were made that added additional harm.

Matthew's characterization was purely as a pest which no one at the station cared for at all, while just a season prior the wnyx gang lobbied for Matthew's job back. Catherine should've been replaced by a new third female character especially after Bill's passing. Tiffani-Amber Thiessen would've made a good addition, based on her guest shot as Lisa's assistant. Dave and Lisa went off in their own directions and their romance was pretty much dead, although their were moments when their sexual chemistry would briefly surface. Patrick Warburton would've also been a good addition to the cast of regulars. They made Dave too much of a loser in the final season and eapecily in the final episode. In conclusion, if the show had to continue without Phil Hartman then they should've retooled the show and added several new characters. Jon Lovotz just wasn't strong enough of a presence to add anything really positive to tje show, one episode he'd be like a poor man's Bill with his scheming and other episodes
he'd be a slightly more sane Matthew.

There's a great essay on NR, on the Internet. Read it a decad ago, guy's a little too infatuated with MT but GREAT read especily if you like well thought out analaysis.

[Adamantium]

Originally Posted by rollo's girl

I respectfully disagree about I Love Lucy. The Hollywood and Europe vacation series produced some of the most memorable episodes of the show. For instance, when Lucy meets William Holden and catches her nose on fire, Lucy doing the ingenious mirror-image bit with the great Harpo Marx and Lucy's Italian Movie where she squares off with the the grape stomper, to name a few. Plus this show was WAY ahead of its' time having guest stars play themselves and hence possibly the first "celebrity stalker". I love the vacation episodes and think the show wouldn't have been the same without them. Just think what we would've missed!!

I like the Hollywood trip. I was just saying that after the success of those episodes, they took too many other vacations on the show. Yes, each vacation had memorable and classic episodes. I'm not bashing the episodes, per say. I'm just saying that I felt they took too many vacations on the show.

[Adamantium]

I'd also like to say that (and this flies in the face of what others feel) I don't think any show goes from good to bad. If I like a show, I'll like it from beginning to end. I may not be too thrilled with a certain season or batch of episodes but I'm very loyal to the shows I like. So when I talk about them "Jumping the Shark", I still enjoyed the show. I'm just trying to point out where I think creatively they may have gone wrong (in my opinion).

For example when an actor leaves (or dies) that's not in the control of the production crew. How they deal with the absence and replacement IS in their control (for the most part).

Like I'm okay with Charlie Sheen replacing Michael J. Fox on Spin City but what I didn't like is that since three other cast members left at the same time as Fox, not only did they not mention their absences but they didn't replace any of them either. Okay, they did have a secretary on for a little while but they didn't give her much to do.

[visaman666]

Originally Posted by DSfan

I just want to ask a kind of question or clarify something I find is confusing: jumping the shark is when a show begins to decline and become worse in quality. So, when trying to pinpoint a jump the shark "moment" this would technically be the moment immediately following whenever a certain show was at its peak, right? Because anything after a peak is obviously a decline.

No, it's not the peak, or the decline, it's when the show changes and goes off in another direction to the point that it distorts the core values of the show. In Happy Days case, Fonzie already jumped over barrels on Live TV, why did he have to Jump over a shark pen on water skis with his Leather Jacket on nonetheless?

[ryan423]

Originally Posted by Adamantium

Like I'm okay with Charlie Sheen replacing Michael J. Fox on Spin City but what I didn't like is that since three other cast members left at the same time as Fox, not only did they not mention their absences but they didn't replace any of them either. Okay, they did have a secretary on for a little while but they didn't give her much to do.

My problem with Spin City post-MJF wasn't Charlie Sheen, because putting his personal life aside, the man is a great comic actor. The problem was the scripts, and for that I hated the last two seasons.

Take a show like 8 Simple Rules. When John Ritter died, clearly the show was never the same again. Season 1, and then seasons 2 and 3 feel very different, and I think of them almost as two different shows. Nonetheless, the writing was still good after Ritter's passing, which I can't say about Spin City after Michael J. Fox's departure.

Another show thats last season people complain about is That '70s Show because of the loss of Topher Grace and Ashton Kutcher, but the fact of the matter is, the last three seasons were terrible, and the show stopped being funny after the fifth season. Besides Kelso, Red, Kitty, and Leo, every other character totally jumped the shark due to bad writing. Fez became unbearable, Jackie became insecure and ended up at some point with every guy in the group, and Donna and Eric's relationship became pathetic. It also didn't help that Josh Meyers was an extremely awful actor, so Randy's character was hard to stomach.

[Adamantium]

Originally Posted by ryan423

My problem with Spin City post-MJF wasn't Charlie Sheen, because putting his personal life aside, the man is a great comic actor. The problem was the scripts, and for that I hated the last two seasons.

Take a show like 8 Simple Rules. When John Ritter died, clearly the show was never the same again. Season 1, and then seasons 2 and 3 feel very different, and I think of them almost as two different shows. Nonetheless, the writing was still good after Ritter's passing, which I can't say about Spin City after Michael J. Fox's departure.

Another show thats last season people complain about is That '70s Show because of the loss of Topher Grace and Ashton Kutcher, but the fact of the matter is, the last three seasons were terrible, and the show stopped being funny after the fifth season. Besides Kelso, Red, Kitty, and Leo, every other character totally jumped the shark due to bad writing. Fez became unbearable, Jackie became insecure and ended up at some point with every guy in the group, and Donna and Eric's relationship became pathetic. It also didn't help that Josh Meyers was an extremely awful actor, so Randy's character was hard to stomach.

Very true. I've always felt any show could weather any cast change as long as it had excellent writing. Thinking about it, I agree with you on Spin City, too. I wish they had added some more character those last two years but what I've seen so far on DVD hasn't been very funny and that's the writing, not the acting. The actors are doing their part but if the writing's no good then they only have so much to work with.

I also like 8 Simple Rules without John Ritter (not more but enough to be upset when it was cancelled). I thought they handled it well. His death episode is one of the few television episodes I've actually cried at. It was so sad. But then the show bounced back and became funny again.

As for That '70s Show, I like the whole show (even the last season) but I only really love seasons 1-3. The rest was good but not great. I though Fez was funny in the last season but at the expense of his character. Sure he was being funny, but it was making his character weirder than before. Early on, he was naive about America. That's what was funny. In the final season he was just straight up mentally off. I didn't mind Randy, I just don't like that he dated Donna. I felt he should have just come in as an employee at Hyde's record store, then started to hang out in the basement and become a friend. Meanwhile Eric and Donna would still be together having a long distance relationship. Then to quote John Belushi... "But nooooo."

[ryan423]

Originally Posted by Adamantium

As for That '70s Show, I like the whole show (even the last season) but I only really love seasons 1-3. The rest was good but not great. I though Fez was funny in the last season but at the expense of his character. Sure he was being funny, but it was making his character weirder than before. Early on, he was naive about America. That's what was funny. In the final season he was just straight up mentally off. I didn't mind Randy, I just don't like that he dated Donna. I felt he should have just come in as an employee at Hyde's record store, then started to hang out in the basement and become a friend. Meanwhile Eric and Donna would still be together having a long distance relationship. Then to quote John Belushi... "But nooooo."

Agree to disagree then, haha! I think one of the few shows, like 8 Simple Rules that avoided getting stale with cast changes was Scrubs in its last year. It took a few episodes, but the new cast was great in their own way, and the show was great by the end of that season that would wind up being its last.

[DSfan]

Originally Posted by Adamantium

I'd also like to say that (and this flies in the face of what others feel) I don't think any show goes from good to bad. If I like a show, I'll like it from beginning to end. I may not be too thrilled with a certain season or batch of episodes but I'm very loyal to the shows I like. So when I talk about them "Jumping the Shark", I still enjoyed the show. I'm just trying to point out where I think creatively they may have gone wrong (in my opinion).

I agree very much with this. I'm probably too loyal to the shows I love.

About That '70s Show, I've seen probably about to 85-90 percent of the episodes (only missed some scattered here and there pretty much) so I have a good feel for all the seasons. Early ones were very, very good. I didn't like when they had that whole Eric and Donna trying to move into a trailer thing and then the writers backed out of it. That was kind of an annoying plotline.

I actually liked all the seasons but Donna becoming blonde was very gimmicky. She looked way better as a redhead anyways so I didn't really get what was so amazing about it. Randy was a terrible actor but besides that, I really didn't mind season 8. Hyde and Sam plot was stupid and Fez and Jackie was a bit of a stretch but the simple, fun plots of each episode were enjoyable it was just some of the ongoing plots of that season that were dumb. Changing the theme song was odd, too. Also, it bothered me how Kitty would always be either writing to Eric or doing something that made them hang on to him as a character. I would have rather had no mention of him after the first couple episodes. What's strange is, did Kelso's departure get an explanation? I don't recall...