Carroll O'Connor Insisted That Edith Be Killed Off!?!? - Sitcoms Online Message Boards

Brian Damage · 03-27-2011, 06:21 PM

The more I read about this guy the more I really don't like him. I mean don't get me wrong he was a very good actor and made Archie Bunker into a classic tv character, but he was nothing but a troublemaker alot of the time. He said in an interview dated in 1980 that Edith needed to die so his show 'Archie Bunker's Place' could live. Norman Lear was practically in tears that he had to write off the beloved Edith Bunker character. Jean Stapleton, who was leaving the role, even refused to do a death scene.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...tapleton&hl=en

Mr. Television · 03-27-2011, 06:55 PM

That's very interesting. I was always under the impression that it was Norman Lear's idea. All I remember is that it was reported that she was going to die. I don't remember where I heard it from but I did know by the time the season started. If this would have happened today with the internet and the 24 hour news it would be huge. In the long run, I think it did help ABP but looking back maybe it wasn't worth it.

Retro4Life · 03-27-2011, 06:59 PM

The mistake, imho, was going ahead to begin with. Yeah, I can see that if you had Archie go on without Edith and Edith was still alive somewhere it wouldn't make sense because the audience would always be wondering where she was and why Archie didn't ever see her. So in that respect it made sense. I mean I don't think it's fair to blame it all on O'Connor because it was Stapleton's wish to leave, he was just left with the explanation (well he and Lear).

It just adds more strength to the argument that when key characters, whose presence defines a show, leave, they should just end things. Not only the main show but any and all spinoffs. Anything further is just milking things for cash.

Mr. Television · 03-27-2011, 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Retro4Life

The mistake, imho, was going ahead to begin with. Yeah, I can see that if you had Archie go on without Edith and Edith was still alive somewhere it wouldn't make sense because the audience would always be wondering where she was and why Archie didn't ever see her. So in that respect it made sense. I mean I don't think it's fair to blame it all on O'Connor because it was Stapleton's wish to leave, he was just left with the explanation (well he and Lear).

It just adds more strength to the argument that when key characters, whose presence defines a show, leave, they should just end things. Not only the main show but any and all spinoffs. Anything further is just milking things for cash.

The first season of ABP did seem strange. The show rarely ever had an episode at the Bunker House other then the episodes that Edith was in. After her death, they had more shows there.

I liked ABP so at the time I was okay with it. The hour long episode that she died was one of the saddest in sitcom history though.

Retro4Life · 03-27-2011, 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stuck In The '70's

The first season of ABP did seem strange. The show rarely ever had an episode at the Bunker House other then the episodes that Edith was in. After her death, they had more shows there.

I liked ABP so at the time I was okay with it. The hour long episode that she died was one of the saddest in sitcom history though.

I agree, I remember my whole family weeping at that.

I don't want to come off like I hated ABP. I watched it weekly, like a lot of people and I think I really WANTED to like it but when I look back it just really didn't make a lot of sense to make it. And when I think about all the devastation they had to do to make it possible; killing off Edith and breaking up Mike and Gloria and leaving Archie pretty much all alone (Stephanie and Billie weren't going to be around forever) I really don't think it was worth the cost. I'd like to think that these characters deserved a happier ending, if that makes any sense.

Mr. Television · 03-27-2011, 07:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Retro4Life

I agree, I remember my whole family weeping at that.

I don't want to come off like I hated ABP. I watched it weekly, like a lot of people and I think I really WANTED to like it but when I look back it just really didn't make a lot of sense to make it. And when I think about all the devastation they had to do to make it possible; killing off Edith and breaking up Mike and Gloria and leaving Archie pretty much all alone (Stephanie and Billie weren't going to be around forever) I really don't think it was worth the cost. I'd like to think that these characters deserved a happier ending, if that makes any sense.

Yea it makes sense and I can understand it. I remember watching the 3 part season final when Mike and Gloria moved to California in 1978. My whole family watched it together. It felt like the end of the series. I remember they showed Archie and Edith alone in the house and I thought that would have been a good way to end it. Considering how CBS just canceled ABP, that would have been a perfect ending. I think the problem with ABP is that it will always be compared to AITF. On it's own, it was a pretty good show. It just wasn't a groundbreaking show like the parent series was.

Dr. Thong · 03-27-2011, 08:17 PM

Obviously, the network and O'Connor didn't want to let Archie go, hence the continuation series ABP.

But obviously, a few years later, the network decided Archie was too old hat and gave him the ax after the fact. No finale, no goodbye.

And lower rated shows than ABP were renewed for the following season (1983-84), so I think some politics came into play.

Retro4Life · 03-27-2011, 08:26 PM

As much as we all hate to see our beloved characters leave the stage, I think it's very important for the creators to realize when that time comes. Mary Tyler Moore understood it, and never really missed a beat quality wise. Very few other shows had that kind of foresight (and integrity).

I remember watching Willie Mays fall down in the outfield during the 1973 World Series and hearing my dad say he should have retired before it got to that point. The same holds true for TV shows. It's hard to know when to step down, but if you don't do it at the right time, the memory people have of you is always kind of tainted by that messy and uncomfortable ending.

Mr. Television · 03-27-2011, 09:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr. Thong

Obviously, the network and O'Connor didn't want to let Archie go, hence the continuation series ABP.

But obviously, a few years later, the network decided Archie was too old hat and gave him the ax after the fact. No finale, no goodbye.

And lower rated shows than ABP were renewed for the following season (1983-84), so I think some politics came into play.

I couldn't believe they renewed Goodnight Beantown. I love Bill Bixby but that was a mediocre sitcom that CBS kept on the Sunday night lineup instead of ABP. I think that was the beginning of the end of CBS' great Sunday night sitcom Dynasty. All that was left was an aging Alice and The Jeffersons.

TVFactFan · 03-27-2011, 09:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr. Thong

Obviously, the network and O'Connor didn't want to let Archie go, hence the continuation series ABP.

But obviously, a few years later, the network decided Archie was too old hat and gave him the ax after the fact. No finale, no goodbye.

And lower rated shows than ABP were renewed for the following season (1983-84), so I think some politics came into play.

After 12 years it showed that being rated #22 for the 82-83 season was time for the show to end. I mean it was lower than Gloria that season so the show still had a long successful run.

Also it was nothing else to do but kill edith off since Carroll O Connor wanted to continue and Jean stapleton didn't. How else would you have explained where the Edith character was?

LittleRickyII · 03-27-2011, 09:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Retro4Life

I don't want to come off like I hated ABP. I watched it weekly, like a lot of people and I think I really WANTED to like it but when I look back it just really didn't make a lot of sense to make it.

I agree. Personally, while I loved All in the Family (that is, until Mike and Gloria left), I hated Archie Bunker's Place and found it painfully boring. In the end, it was only getting along on the strength of its lead-in, 60 Minutes, which was the number 1 show at that time. But Archie Bunker's Place still lost nearly a third of the 60 Minutes audience. Networks don't like that and want audiences to build throughout the evening, not decrease. I think at some point in the '82-'83 season, CBS experimented with moving it to a different night to see how it would do without the 60 Minutes lead-in, and it went straight to the bottom of the ratings.

I agree with the comment that they should have quit while they were ahead, like they did with The Mary Tyler Moore Show, and it was still a quality show. That would have been back in 1978 when Mike and Gloria moved away. So I agree also with that comment that that would have been the perfect way to end the series. As for shows like Goodnight Beantown and Alice, yeah, they should have gone, too.

TVFactFan · 03-27-2011, 09:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LittleRickyII

I agree. Personally, while I loved All in the Family (that is, until Mike and Gloria left), I hated Archie Bunker's Place and found it painfully boring. In the end, it was only getting along on the strength of its lead-in, 60 Minutes, which was the number 1 show at that time. But Archie Bunker's Place still lost nearly a third of the 60 Minutes audience. Networks don't like that and want audiences to build throughout the evening, not decrease. I think at some point in the '82-'83 season, CBS experimented with moving it to a different night to see how it would do without the 60 Minutes lead-in, and it went straight to the bottom of the ratings.

I agree with the comment that they should have quit while they were ahead, like they did with The Mary Tyler Moore Show, and it was still a quality show. That would have been back in 1978 when Mike and Gloria moved away. So I agree also with that comment that that would have been the perfect way to end the series. As for shows like Goodnight Beantown and Alice, yeah, they should have gone, too.

The show kept going because the guy who was responsible for the success of the show was STILL ON THE SHOW.

Retro4Life · 03-27-2011, 10:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TVFactFan

The show kept going because the guy who was responsible for the success of the show was STILL ON THE SHOW.

It wasn't just O'Connor that was "responsible for the success of the show". That's the point we're making; it was an ensemble effort. Try making that show from the beginning without Edith, Mike or Gloria. It wouldn't have lasted a single season.

TVFactFan · 03-27-2011, 10:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Retro4Life

It wasn't just O'Connor that was "responsible for the success of the show". That's the point we're making; it was an ensemble effort. Try making that show from the beginning without Edith, Mike or Gloria. It wouldn't have lasted a single season.

He was 70% of the reason. You try having a show with Just Edith, Mike, and Gloria

Retro4Life · 03-27-2011, 10:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TVFactFan

He was 70% of the reason. You try having a show with Just Edith, Mike, and Gloria

So Edith, Mike and Gloria were each 10 percent huh? Generous.

I never said the show could last without Archie. You implied it could last without Mike, Gloria and Edith, though, and I disagreed.

03-27-2011, 06:21 PM	#1
Brian Damage I'm Rich Bitch Forum Icon Join Date: Feb 03, 2002 Location: What Ain't No Country I Ever Heard Of...They Speak English in What? Posts: 63,108	Carroll O'Connor Insisted That Edith Be Killed Off!?!? The more I read about this guy the more I really don't like him. I mean don't get me wrong he was a very good actor and made Archie Bunker into a classic tv character, but he was nothing but a troublemaker alot of the time. He said in an interview dated in 1980 that Edith needed to die so his show 'Archie Bunker's Place' could live. Norman Lear was practically in tears that he had to write off the beloved Edith Bunker character. Jean Stapleton, who was leaving the role, even refused to do a death scene. http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...tapleton&hl=en
	__________________ The Key to the Kingdom of Heaven: John 3:3 *Money Doesn't Buy Happiness...But I'd Rather Cry in My Private Jet*

03-27-2011, 06:59 PM	#3
Retro4Life Accept No Substitutes Forum Veteran Join Date: Feb 04, 2009 Location: IL Posts: 6,708	The mistake, imho, was going ahead to begin with. Yeah, I can see that if you had Archie go on without Edith and Edith was still alive somewhere it wouldn't make sense because the audience would always be wondering where she was and why Archie didn't ever see her. So in that respect it made sense. I mean I don't think it's fair to blame it all on O'Connor because it was Stapleton's wish to leave, he was just left with the explanation (well he and Lear). It just adds more strength to the argument that when key characters, whose presence defines a show, leave, they should just end things. Not only the main show but any and all spinoffs. Anything further is just milking things for cash.
	__________________ Alex Reiger :[Trying to convince Louie not to antagonize Bobby] "It's not hard to make people feel bad about their lives. What's hard is making people feel good about their lives."

03-27-2011, 08:17 PM	#7
Dr. Thong a/k/a "ACK!" Forum Veteran Join Date: Jul 10, 2001 Location: New Hampshire, USA Posts: 5,546	Obviously, the network and O'Connor didn't want to let Archie go, hence the continuation series ABP. But obviously, a few years later, the network decided Archie was too old hat and gave him the ax after the fact. No finale, no goodbye. And lower rated shows than ABP were renewed for the following season (1983-84), so I think some politics came into play.
	__________________ "Sunday has been cancelled due to lack of interest. That is all."

03-27-2011, 06:55 PM	#2
Mr. Television 22 Years at Sitcoms Online Forum Icon Join Date: Jun 06, 2003 Location: Somewhere you're Not Posts: 62,127	That's very interesting. I was always under the impression that it was Norman Lear's idea. All I remember is that it was reported that she was going to die. I don't remember where I heard it from but I did know by the time the season started. If this would have happened today with the internet and the 24 hour news it would be huge. In the long run, I think it did help ABP but looking back maybe it wasn't worth it.
	__________________ Sonny

03-27-2011, 08:26 PM	#8
Retro4Life Accept No Substitutes Forum Veteran Join Date: Feb 04, 2009 Location: IL Posts: 6,708	As much as we all hate to see our beloved characters leave the stage, I think it's very important for the creators to realize when that time comes. Mary Tyler Moore understood it, and never really missed a beat quality wise. Very few other shows had that kind of foresight (and integrity). I remember watching Willie Mays fall down in the outfield during the 1973 World Series and hearing my dad say he should have retired before it got to that point. The same holds true for TV shows. It's hard to know when to step down, but if you don't do it at the right time, the memory people have of you is always kind of tainted by that messy and uncomfortable ending.