Was the Vivian Bagley Character TV's First Divorced Woman?

[Brian Damage]

I am just curious if Vivian Bagley was a "groundbreaking" character?

[catlover79]

I'm pretty sure she was (in primetime, at least, in a sitcom, definitely). She was over a decade ahead of Ann Romano (One Day at a Time)!!

[Brian Damage]

Originally Posted by catlover79

I'm pretty sure she was (in primetime, at least, in a sitcom, definitely). She was over a decade ahead of Ann Romano (One Day at a Time)!!

Interesting thanks Monika!

[novarrofan]

Well it is a bit of a dubious honour really but being divorced suited Viv's character to a tee.

Originally Posted by Brian Damage

Interesting thanks Monika!

[catlover79]

Originally Posted by Brian Damage

Interesting thanks Monika!

No problem!!

[McGillicuddy]

There was Endora and Maurice (Bewitched), but they were just separated, and Viv Bagley had them beat by a couple of years, anyway.

[Jude The Obscure]

^I'd call Endora and Maurice more of an open marriage, rather than separated.

If The Lucy Show really had followed the "Life without George" book, Lucille Carmichael would have been divorced as well.

[Will and Grace Fanatic]

does anyone know why CBS would not allow Mary from the Mary Tyler Moore show to be divorced, but years earlier they allowed Vivian's character to be divorced. Doesn't make sense.

[DJM77]

Originally Posted by Will and Grace Fanatic

does anyone know why CBS would not allow Mary from the Mary Tyler Moore show to be divorced, but years earlier they allowed Vivian's character to be divorced. Doesn't make sense.

I heard somewhere that one of the powers that be didn't want Mary to be divorced because they were afraid that people would think that she had divorced Dick Van Dyke.

[PracTz]

Originally Posted by DJM77

I heard somewhere that one of the powers that be didn't want Mary to be divorced because they were afraid that people would think that she had divorced Dick Van Dyke.

I guess they didn't think the audience would have been too upset at the idea of Vivian having divorced 'Fred Mertz'!


P.S. Yes, too bad they didn't also allow Lucy Carmichael to have been divorced as per the original source inasmuch as I can't recall her ever even have once hinted she missed her late husband.

P.P.S. It's kinda interesting how much Miss Vance kept to herself re her OWN offscreen life re Lucy. Not only did Lucy buy her claim that Miss Vance was a year her junior instead of two years older but she even thought that her former husband Phil Ober was her 1st and John Dodd were Miss Vance's 1st and 2nd husbands but, in actuality, Miss Vance had married [and divorced] two earlier husbands!

[LittleRickyII]

Originally Posted by PracTz

I guess they didn't think the audience would have been too upset at the idea of Vivian having divorced 'Fred Mertz'!

That's an interesting point! That explanation about why Mary Richards was single rather than divorced always struck me as odd. It suggests CBS executives thought the American public was really, really stupid to 1) not realize Mary Richards and Laura Petrie were two different characters; and 2) not realize that they were both works of FICTION. Eight years earlier I guess they didn't think the public was as stupid.

Originally Posted by PracTz

P.S. Yes, too bad they didn't also allow Lucy Carmichael to have been divorced as per the original source inasmuch as I can't recall her ever even have once hinted she missed her late husband.

Another good point! The only time that comes to mind that suggested she missed her husband was when they were struggling with the TV signal ("Lucy and Viv Put Up a TV Antenna") and she made some reference to her children about how "your father" always fixed the problem. The only other time I remember him being referenced was when Mr. Barnsdahl was reading what he wrote the bank regarding her trust fund, and the act she would likely put on to try to get money in advance of her allowance.

Originally Posted by PracTz

P.P.S. It's kinda interesting how much Miss Vance kept to herself re her OWN offscreen life re Lucy. Not only did Lucy buy her claim that Miss Vance was a year her junior instead of two years older but she even thought that her former husband Phil Ober was her 1st and John Dodd were Miss Vance's 1st and 2nd husbands but, in actuality, Miss Vance had married [and divorced] two earlier husbands!

Are you sure Lucy didn't know about any of this? Vivian spent a lot of time hanging out at Lucy's house, and they went on vacations together. They surely had many intimate discussions. It's hard for me to imagine Vivian never mentioned any of this to her, at least regarding the prior marriages. She was sensitive about her age and being "old man" William Frawley's wife, so I can kind of see how she might have been willing to go along with the inaccurate press accounts that said she was younger than Lucy. She might not have ever felt the need to say, "Oh Lucy, by the way, I'm actually older than you." Women just didn't discuss their age back then, so that might never have come up in conversation. But I'm finding it difficult to believe Lucy never knew about Vivian's other ex-husbands.

[PracTz]

Originally Posted by LittleRickyII

That's an interesting point! That explanation about why Mary Richards was single rather than divorced always struck me as odd. It suggests CBS executives thought the American public was really, really stupid to 1) not realize Mary Richards and Laura Petrie were two different characters; and 2) not realize that they were both works of FICTION. Eight years earlier I guess they didn't think the public was as stupid.

Believe it or not, they DID believe a good part of the 'public' was dumb enough to think that it was unthinkable for Lucy to have divorced 'Ricky Ricardo' even though Lucy Carmichael was somewhat different which is why they wouldn't greenlight Mrs. Carmichael being a divorcee. Of course, there were folks VERY upset at the Arnazes getting divorced [at least one Catholic school had the entire student body pray for it not to happen] and it seems Lucy got more flak for that than for it being publicized her having voted Communist.

Originally Posted by LittleRicky II

Another good point! The only time that comes to mind that suggested she missed her husband was when they were struggling with the TV signal ("Lucy and Viv Put Up a TV Antenna") and she made some reference to her children about how "your father" always fixed the problem. The only other time I remember him being referenced was when Mr. Barnsdahl was reading what he wrote the bank regarding her trust fund, and the act she would likely put on to try to get money in advance of her allowance.

Those were the only times I recall her MENTIONING him and wishing one had a TV repairman on the premises or recalling how someone knew one's manipulation tactics is NOT the same as expressing missing a beloved spouse. Yes, of course, 'The Lucy Show' was a broad sitcom and one couldn't be expected to have them have lengthy, sentimental monologues re late spouses, but even a 'I wish your father could have seen you how you turned out' is better than what we got.

Originally Posted by Little Ricky II

Are you sure Lucy didn't know about any of this? Vivian spent a lot of time hanging out at Lucy's house, and they went on vacations together. They surely had many intimate discussions. It's hard for me to imagine Vivian never mentioned any of this to her, at least regarding the prior marriages. She was sensitive about her age and being "old man" William Frawley's wife, so I can kind of see how she might have been willing to go along with the inaccurate press accounts that said she was younger than Lucy. She might not have ever felt the need to say, "Oh Lucy, by the way, I'm actually older than you." Women just didn't discuss their age back then, so that might never have come up in conversation. But I'm finding it difficult to believe Lucy never knew about Vivian's other ex-husbands.

All I know is that Lucy did recall to someone that she thought that her and Viv's 2nd marriages were smoother than the first. Now, whether Lucy had genuine ignorance re Viv's previous unions [which seemed to be unearthed after someone did a bio of hers] OR whether she felt the person she was talking to didn't need to know about Viv having been wed four times [or that she really DID know Viv's actual age] is debatable.