Thoughts on the Sonny Liston case?

[justins5256]

I watched this story last night. I had seen it numerous times over the years but never gave it too much thought. I tried searching for threads on the case and came up empty handed. I'm surprised that there hasn't been much discussion about it. Now I am curious to know what the forum consensus is on this...how do you think Sonny Liston died?

Unsolved makes a good case for murder as usual. Consider the following points...

- At the time time he died, Sonny was trying to resurrect his boxing career. He was vying for a spot as World Heavyweight Champion after Muhammad Ali was forced to step down for refusing to register for the draft. By all accounts, Sonny was happy to get back in the ring.

- On the path to regaining the World Heavyweight Championship, Sonny had to fight Chuck Wepner. According to UM, Sonny may have been asked to throw the fight by gamblers who were betting against him. Liston defeated Wepner even though he had been asked not to, which provides a possible motive for his murder.

- Although there were needle marks on Sonny's right arm suggesting he injected the heroin, he had been previously hospitalized for injuries sustained in a car accident and an IV drip had been administered.

- There were only trace amounts of heroin in Sonny's system. It was argued that there wasn't enough to cause an overdose. His official cause of death was cardiac arrest.

- According to his friends and family, Sonny was a heavy drinker but didn't do drugs.

- By all accounts, Sonny was terrified of needles to the point that he refused to go to doctors for routine checkups or to treat ailments.

That's pretty much it. Any thoughts?

While I believe it is possible that Sonny was murdered, I think it's equally possible that he used drugs occasionally in secret. The only reason I say this is because it was mentioned at the beginning of the segment that Sonny's body was discovered by his wife who was returning from a trip. Seems like a good time to shoot up - when your disapproving spouse is away.

[RobinW]

Found this real interesting interview with Lem Banker, the sports betting expert who was a good friend of Sonny Liston and was featured in the UM segment. He elaborates more on his claim that Liston was hanging around with "the wrong crowd" as he was spending a lot of time with drug dealers around the time of his death. Even though this probably didn't mean that Sonny started taking drugs, these do sound like the type of people who would know how to create a fake drug overdose scenario if they wound up killing him.
http://www.famousinterview.ca/interviews/lem_banker.htm

Also, considering that UM has always been fascinated by cases where people have vivid dreams or premonitions, I'm surprised the segment didn't make mention of the fact that Liston's wife claims she had a scary dream on December 28 (two days before his official date of death) where he was in the shower screaming "Help me, Geraldine! Help me!".

[justins5256]

Good find.

One thing I noticed that was a discrepancy: Banker mentions that Sonny's body was found by the housekeeper (I believe she was interviewed in the UM segment), but the re-enactment depicted Geraldine finding Sonny's body. For what it's worth, this claim is backed up by Wikipedia.

[scm80]

I bought a book recently called Greatest Sports Conspiracies Of All Time and there is a lengthy discussion on this. I'll try and post some of this. They don't go into the murder, but they do shed light on how Liston took a dive in his matches against Ali.

[LittleBeast69]

Definitely in agreement with Justins5256 in that I strongly believe that Liston was murdered. In addition to the UM segment there's an HBO documentary, "Sonny Liston: The Hero Nobody Wanted" from the 90s that brought up that Sonny's body was discovered by his wife. They also provided several witnesses that stated the boxer was terrified of needles.

[LaurierCrimmajor]

Liston is one of the many fascinating and complex individuals in the history of boxing.

At that time and place, especially in that sport(and it's not like too much has changed re:shadiness), anything is possible, be it the infamous "phantom punch" or Liston refusing to throw or throwing fights.

There's so much to the Wepner stuff(and who he was allegedly around) and so much innuendo surrounding not just fight-fixing and the mob, but also fighters betting on themselves to go certain rounds with inferior fighters and then cashing in (just for instance), there are many ways to get into serious trouble. Yeah, I don't buy the Liston suicide theory.

[XCalibur]

I am something of a boxing buff, so this case fascinated me.

You are correct about Sonny Liston trying to resurrect his boxing career, in fact I think he had a good chance of reclaiming the heavyweight title, because Joe Frazier was the HW champ at the time, and though Frazier was a great fighter, most boxing pundits agree Liston was all wrong for him and would have been a bad matchup for him. Due to that, suicide seemed unlikely.

I can't remember all the details of the case will have to rewatch, but it does seem that Sonny was involved with a lot of the wrong people. I think its generally agreed he threw the second Ali fight, and perhaps the first due to threats and some sort of gambling issues. Its not a stretch to say he might have been murdered due to his association with shady characters.

[Awsi Dooger]

Joe Frazier would have destroyed Sonny Liston, who was already old at the first Ali fight and now you're talking more than a half decade later. Lots of luck. Frazier may have been small but he was at his peak and absolutely ferocious. Only a huge heavyweight like a young Foreman was able to expose Frazier's vulnerabilities. Sonny Liston circa 1970 would not have qualified. Not even close.

Ali was a bigger guy than Liston when they met in Miami Beach. Angelo Dundee always talked about that, how it was shocking at the weigh in that the big bad Liston was actually smaller than the flashy Clay. Then it played out that way in the fight. Not only didn't Liston throw that first fight but he was fortunate it lasted as long as it did, due to the ointment in Clay's eyes that derailed him for nearly a full round. It was probably an intentional tactic by Liston's corner once they saw the dynamics of the two fighters in relation to each other and the inevitable result.

Bottom line, Sonny Liston was a quitter. He had that reputation among insiders even though he was considered invincible by the gullible public. When Liston quit on his stool during that first Clay (Ali) fight when he sensed the inevitable result and embarrassment, his trainer famously admonished Liston with something like, "For once in your life don't be a bum." I don't remember the exact quote but it's something like that.

By the second fight, Clay had become muslim, amidst all reports, and Liston was supposedly afraid of muslims. When he didn't get up from the so-called phantom punch, Liston explained to the boxing commissioner that Ali was crazy. In other words, Liston was worried Ali would hit him unmercifully upon restart and humiliate Liston. It was preferable to find a soft landing spot and allow the public to make excuses and guesses. In boxing the rematches are generally more lopsided than the original result. This one would have followed that pattern, if Liston had returned to his feet. Bullies don't like to face someone who can bully them. Clay loved to talk to opposing fighters in the ring during his pre-exile awesome prime. He already had derisive terms for Liston like ugly bear and bum. I can just imagine Clay relishing the opportunity to pick apart a sad old Liston for several unmerciful rounds while taunting him the entire time. Liston sensed that possibility and wanted no part of it. It would have been a brief version of Larry Holmes toying with an old Ali in 1980, although Holmes respected Ali and showed mercy, while allowing the rounds to pile up. That was a sad fight, if you can call it a fight.

I don't doubt that Sonny Liston quit on life itself.

[joker1998]

i think the people that killed liston are also responsible for killing gino hernandez

[MegtheEgg86]

In between on Liston, always have been. I think he was a clear suicide risk given the fledgling career, heavy drinking, and past history of very difficult life circumstances, but I don't completely discount the notion that he could have been murdered. If I were made to choose, however, I'd probably go with suicide.

I thought I remembered either hearing or reading Liston used to apply some kind of material (ointment or some such thing) to the exterior of his gloves to irritate the eyes of his opponents. Don't know whether or not that's true.

[DALLASTEXAN!!]

Originally Posted by MegtheEgg86

In between on Liston, always have been. I think he was a clear suicide risk given the fledgling career, heavy drinking, and past history of very difficult life circumstances, but I don't completely discount the notion that he could have been murdered. If I were made to choose, however, I'd probably go with suicide.

I thought I remembered either hearing or reading Liston used to apply some kind of material (ointment or some such thing) to the exterior of his gloves to irritate the eyes of his opponents. Don't know whether or not that's true.

I kind of feel the same about him like the Kurt cobain conspiracy. Suicidal people with substance abuse problems also make potential murder victims so people can take that angle. But I always thought it was suicide.

[joker1998]

kurt cobain was murdered

[DALLASTEXAN!!]

Originally Posted by joker1998

kurt cobain was murdered

I don't agree. Nevertheless I wish he were still Alive making music. I love Dave grohl but would rather him drumming in nirvana.

[Huskerz85]

Watched this numerous times, but never came searching for the case here.

The toxicology reports (which stated there was insufficient amounts of anything left over in his system that could've caused his death) initially had me befuddled. Then I thought back to something that came up in a discussion regarding the Kurt Sova case (see the very bottom of this post)

In short, I think Sonny could've unintentionally caused his own death. He was a heavy drinker and he sometimes associated with some shady characters. So it wouldn't exactly be that much of a stretch to find him with some illegal substances.

I think, being at or past his prime, he could've become somewhat despondent. One night when he was home all alone, he decided to get sauced and on a whim, took some stuff. Maybe whatever it was was laced/cut with something else or maybe it wasn't, either way though, it caused some sort of fatal reaction.


Murder though doesn't make sense to me. I can't see it being orchestrated by drug dealers - the amount of effort it would take to disguise/eliminate the presence of drugs in his system seems pretty uncharacteristic/out of character. Then too, if it was related to the Wepner bout - why wait a whole 6 months after the fight to get even??

[Huskerz85]

Watched this one again and randomly decided to go digging. Wikipedia's entry on Liston actually goes into a bit of detail on the theories behind his death, widening the scope of things a good deal beyond what was presented to us in the segment.

Specifically, in addition to the theory that he was killed for not throwing the Chuck Wepner fight, there are 3 more.........

1) The mob offered him money to throw the second Ali fight, but reneged. When Sonny's situation got critical, he threatened to blow the lid off the story unless they paid up and so the mob had him whacked.

2) Sonny was hit with a "hot dose" by drug dealers who suspected him of being a police informant (police told him in person to stay away from a certain house......he was reportedly at said house though shortly before it was raided)

3) Sonny was a 'collector' in a loan-sharking operation. When he made it be known he wanted a larger piece of the action, those above him took exception and had him whacked.

Nearly everyone believes the police had a hand in covering it up. Assuming they did, the most plausible theory IMO is #1 - the Mafia would be the only ones with the knowledge/skill/resources that could kill Sonny and keep all traces of drugs out of his system.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonny_Liston#Death