Phyllis, Rhoda and Brenda? - Sitcoms Online Message Boards

OOliver · 01-16-2010, 04:44 PM

I've noticed something since the original run of the show in the 80s, and wonder if anyone else has noticed the same thing. Has it occured to anyone that the characters of Blair, Jo and Natalie were virtually carbon copies from characters created by 'MTM productions '?

With no stretch of the imagination, Mid-West Blair is the junior version of Phyllis Lindstrom from "The Mary Tyler Moore Show" (1970-74, before she got her own show). Pretty, sophisticated, cultured, spoiled and outspoken, Blair/Phyliis is very sure of herself and knows how to put everyone in their place - usually below her. (Ironically, they later bring in Cloris Leachman at the end of the run to replace Charlotte Rae. I think it would have been more fun to see Leachman guest starring as Blair's mother, in her full Phyllis persona.)

When the show needed a major dose of humor, they brought in a foil for Blair, in the character of 'Jo', who did the same routine as Valerie Harper did as 'Rhoda' on the MTM show (1970-74). The opposite of blonde Blair (Phyllis), the Bronx brunette Jo (Rhoda) is a bit unpolished, not as sophisticated, not as frilly and feminine and heavy on sarcasm...but loveable and likeable as 'everyone's best friend'.

Rounding it out, there's Natalie - again, a carbon copy of the original "Brenda Morgenstern" from the creative team at MTM Productions. Overweight, NY Jewish, insecure, and witty - Natalie was Brenda Redux. Everyone felt better about themselves when Natalie/Brenda was around.

Has anyone else noticed these similarites?

Madame X · 01-16-2010, 07:04 PM

Very interesting, Oliver! I never thought about it but you make valid points. I can really see it now that you mention it.

Also, both Jo and Rhoda got married at the end of the shows.

Smartboy · 01-16-2010, 07:40 PM

Because I never really got into the Mary Tylor Moore Show, I cannot really talk intelegently about the situation. However, there is one mistake that I think that you made. You referred to Blair as being from the Mid-West. Well, I am pretty sure that it was implied that her character was from New York City. Now the actress who played her is originally from Texas. Maybe that is what confused you. On top of that, in the early episodes there was another girl named Sue Anne who was from Kansas. Finally, in the middle portion of the show, Blair was dating a guy named Cliff who was from a farm in Iowa.

OOliver · 01-30-2010, 04:47 PM

Maybe that's where I got mixed up - I thought she was from the midwest, but it may have been th guy she was dating.

In any event, the similarities between Blair/Phyllis, Jo/Rhoda, and Natalie/Brenda are really incredible. Way too much to be considered a 'coincidence'.

ZeldaGilroy · 01-30-2010, 05:06 PM

I think I have to respectfully disagree with you on this. While both Phyllis and Blair are pretty and sophisticated and want to put others in their place, I always felt like Phyllis was insecure and needed validation that she was important and that was why she did some of the things she did. I felt like Blair really and truly was secure in herself, and simply felt like she was imparting her wisdom on others (whether she was insulting clothes, hair, manners, social status, etc) she felt it was justified. I did see that quality change with her as the seasons progressed though.

With Jo/Rhoda I do not see many similarities at all other than the fact that they were both from New York. I LOVE Rhoda, by the way...one of my favorite shows. To me, Rhoda was struggling to be the person she wanted to be. She wanted to be beautiful, she wanted dates, she wanted many things that seemed just out of her grasp. Jo on the other hand was more content with who she was. She didn't care what people thought about her appearance, she didn't care if guys liked her or not. Again, some of this changed as the seasons progressed, but usually I saw Jo as being more at-ease with herself than Rhoda ever was.

And Natalie/Brenda I do not see at all. Brenda was a sad character, always down on herself, always unhappy. I hated the way they portrayed her. Natalie was actually a bright, bubbly character that was blessed with good friends and a happy life. I never felt like they felt better when she was around because she made their lives seem better, but because she made them happy.

This is an interesting thread. I'm sorry I did not completely agree, but it did get me thinking about some of my favorite characters.

Thanks!

OOliver · 02-18-2010, 06:37 PM

I've been watching "Rhoda" and "Phyllis" on ALN, and all I can think of is Natalie and Jo ('Brenda' and 'Rhoda') and Blair ('Phyllis'). I can definitely see where the writers for the FOL got their inspiration from!

On a recent ep of 'Rhoda', Rhoda tries to beef up Brenda's self-confidence, and Brenda admits she could never be as secure and as self-confident as Rhoda (similar to Jo's self-confidence and security?).

Brenda was not at all a 'sad character'. It's mentioned over and over how everyone loves her and loves to be around her because she makes them happy (like Natalie, always there with a smile and a quick joke) - even her coworkers at the bank where she works.

ZeldaGilroy · 02-18-2010, 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OOliver

I've been watching "Rhoda" and "Phyllis" on ALN, and all I can think of is Natalie and Jo ('Brenda' and 'Rhoda') and Blair ('Phyllis'). I can definitely see where the writers for the FOL got their inspiration from!

On a recent ep of 'Rhoda', Rhoda tries to beef up Brenda's self-confidence, and Brenda admits she could never be as secure and as self-confident as Rhoda (similar to Jo's self-confidence and security?).

Brenda was not at all a 'sad character'. It's mentioned over and over how everyone loves her and loves to be around her because she makes them happy (like Natalie, always there with a smile and a quick joke) - even her coworkers at the bank where she works.

I can see what you are saying, but I still disagree. And I also love Brenda, I just wish she wasn't always so down on herself. While I agree everyone loved her, she did not love herself. Natalie was much more self-confident and happy with who she was. But that is just my opinion...we can agree to disagree on this one.

01-16-2010, 04:44 PM	#1
OOliver Member Forum Regular Join Date: Jan 28, 2009 Location: Providence RI Posts: 569	Phyllis, Rhoda and Brenda? I've noticed something since the original run of the show in the 80s, and wonder if anyone else has noticed the same thing. Has it occured to anyone that the characters of Blair, Jo and Natalie were virtually carbon copies from characters created by 'MTM productions '? With no stretch of the imagination, Mid-West Blair is the junior version of Phyllis Lindstrom from "The Mary Tyler Moore Show" (1970-74, before she got her own show). Pretty, sophisticated, cultured, spoiled and outspoken, Blair/Phyliis is very sure of herself and knows how to put everyone in their place - usually below her. (Ironically, they later bring in Cloris Leachman at the end of the run to replace Charlotte Rae. I think it would have been more fun to see Leachman guest starring as Blair's mother, in her full Phyllis persona.) When the show needed a major dose of humor, they brought in a foil for Blair, in the character of 'Jo', who did the same routine as Valerie Harper did as 'Rhoda' on the MTM show (1970-74). The opposite of blonde Blair (Phyllis), the Bronx brunette Jo (Rhoda) is a bit unpolished, not as sophisticated, not as frilly and feminine and heavy on sarcasm...but loveable and likeable as 'everyone's best friend'. Rounding it out, there's Natalie - again, a carbon copy of the original "Brenda Morgenstern" from the creative team at MTM Productions. Overweight, NY Jewish, insecure, and witty - Natalie was Brenda Redux. Everyone felt better about themselves when Natalie/Brenda was around. Has anyone else noticed these similarites?

01-16-2010, 07:04 PM	#2
Madame X Member Senior Member Join Date: Sep 15, 2006 Location: Oregon Posts: 1,831	Very interesting, Oliver! I never thought about it but you make valid points. I can really see it now that you mention it. Also, both Jo and Rhoda got married at the end of the shows.

01-16-2010, 07:40 PM	#3
Smartboy Member Forum 4000 Club Member Join Date: Aug 06, 2007 Location: South Orange, NJ Posts: 4,231	Because I never really got into the Mary Tylor Moore Show, I cannot really talk intelegently about the situation. However, there is one mistake that I think that you made. You referred to Blair as being from the Mid-West. Well, I am pretty sure that it was implied that her character was from New York City. Now the actress who played her is originally from Texas. Maybe that is what confused you. On top of that, in the early episodes there was another girl named Sue Anne who was from Kansas. Finally, in the middle portion of the show, Blair was dating a guy named Cliff who was from a farm in Iowa.

01-30-2010, 04:47 PM	#4
OOliver Member Forum Regular Join Date: Jan 28, 2009 Location: Providence RI Posts: 569	Maybe that's where I got mixed up - I thought she was from the midwest, but it may have been th guy she was dating. In any event, the similarities between Blair/Phyllis, Jo/Rhoda, and Natalie/Brenda are really incredible. Way too much to be considered a 'coincidence'.

01-30-2010, 05:06 PM	#5
ZeldaGilroy Dobie and Zelda Forever!!! Forum 4000 Club Member Join Date: Nov 14, 2000 Location: I don't know...I'm probably lost! Posts: 4,144	I think I have to respectfully disagree with you on this. While both Phyllis and Blair are pretty and sophisticated and want to put others in their place, I always felt like Phyllis was insecure and needed validation that she was important and that was why she did some of the things she did. I felt like Blair really and truly was secure in herself, and simply felt like she was imparting her wisdom on others (whether she was insulting clothes, hair, manners, social status, etc) she felt it was justified. I did see that quality change with her as the seasons progressed though. With Jo/Rhoda I do not see many similarities at all other than the fact that they were both from New York. I LOVE Rhoda, by the way...one of my favorite shows. To me, Rhoda was struggling to be the person she wanted to be. She wanted to be beautiful, she wanted dates, she wanted many things that seemed just out of her grasp. Jo on the other hand was more content with who she was. She didn't care what people thought about her appearance, she didn't care if guys liked her or not. Again, some of this changed as the seasons progressed, but usually I saw Jo as being more at-ease with herself than Rhoda ever was. And Natalie/Brenda I do not see at all. Brenda was a sad character, always down on herself, always unhappy. I hated the way they portrayed her. Natalie was actually a bright, bubbly character that was blessed with good friends and a happy life. I never felt like they felt better when she was around because she made their lives seem better, but because she made them happy. This is an interesting thread. I'm sorry I did not completely agree, but it did get me thinking about some of my favorite characters. Thanks!

02-18-2010, 06:37 PM	#6
OOliver Member Forum Regular Join Date: Jan 28, 2009 Location: Providence RI Posts: 569	I've been watching "Rhoda" and "Phyllis" on ALN, and all I can think of is Natalie and Jo ('Brenda' and 'Rhoda') and Blair ('Phyllis'). I can definitely see where the writers for the FOL got their inspiration from! On a recent ep of 'Rhoda', Rhoda tries to beef up Brenda's self-confidence, and Brenda admits she could never be as secure and as self-confident as Rhoda (similar to Jo's self-confidence and security?). Brenda was not at all a 'sad character'. It's mentioned over and over how everyone loves her and loves to be around her because she makes them happy (like Natalie, always there with a smile and a quick joke) - even her coworkers at the bank where she works.