Psychics: A Discussion

[mozartpc27]

So, you're a detective, and you've caught a major case: a child has disappeared perhaps, or an unidentified woman has been found murdered. The trail is cold. Then a person wanders into the station one day, and says, "I'm seeing a wooded area with a road nearby, the color brown, and also the number 5 is somwhere near - that's where you'll find the body/identity." You say...

A) That's very interesting. Now get the hell out of here.
B) That's very interesting. Keep talking (because I think you're the weird psychopath who did it and who is now trying to get an extra little thrill out of it, so I am going to keep you talking hoping you'll make a mistake!)
C) That's very interesting. Let me grab my coat, my hat, maps of the area, and let's ride around looking for this vague description!

You've probably guessed I'm an A, unless the person is very suspicious, in which case I'm a B. But never a C. These psychics are, at best, at BEST, well-meaning harmless crackpots. Most of the time they aren't harmless, and often they aren't crackpots either. In any event, I like evidence, not bull****. What do you all think? Prove me wrong!

[shek]

Very interesting question. Years ago, I would have elected for A) just as you but we had 2 personal experiences in the course of our daughters case (Lisa Marie Kimmell) that have changed my mind to elect C). Of course, we were approached by some crack pots simply seeking large sums of money and those trying to exploit us, but setting our skepticism aside, in desparation we agreed to meet with a couple of them. The people we dealt with were not seeking money from us, very sincere and down right on target even in the vague sense of things. Up to that point, I felt like ESP was a bunch of hogwash but don't believe that anymore. And I base that on acutual experience not merely my opinion.

[Apostapler]

Originally Posted by shek

Very interesting question. Years ago, I would have elected for A) just as you but we had 2 personal experiences in the course of our daughters case (Lisa Marie Kimmell) that have changed my mind to elect C). Of course, we were approached by some crack pots simply seeking large sums of money and those trying to exploit us, but setting our skeptism aside, in despartion we agreed to meet with a couple of them. The people we dealt with were not seeking money from us, very sincere and down right on target even in the vague sense of things. Up to that point, I felt like ESP was a bunch of hogwash but don't believe that anymore. And I base that on acutual experience not merely my opinion.

Thanks for sharing, Shek. Do you mind telling us what information the psychics who assisted you came up with?

Having never needed a psychic for personal reasons, I treat it with a grain of salt. Some people are out to take advantage of others, some aren't. If you can weed those out, you can at least listen to what the honest ones have to say, and within reason, investigate it.

[Mastermind]

A) That's very interesting. Now get the hell out of here.
B) That's very interesting. Keep talking (because I think you're the weird psychopath who did it and who is now trying to get an extra little thrill out of it, so I am going to keep you talking hoping you'll make a mistake!)
C) That's very interesting. Let me grab my coat, my hat, maps of the area, and let's ride around looking for this vague description!

None of the above, i would choose D.

D. "That's interesting. What's your name, address and how did you come to get know about this case? Oh, you were called in by someone? What's that persons name?". Then Do a quick interview and determine whether the suspect is a :

1. quack/scam artist/attention whore
2. genuine psychic
3. possible witness who didn;t want to come forward directly and did this as an act of protection.
4. A suspect
5. Someone who has a legitimate connection to the suspect.

If you determine that the person is a legitimate pyschic, I would keep the persons info in my notepad and label as "cleared/witness/psychic??"

I would probably only go to her as a an actual investigative resource unless I could verify that other investigators and law enforcement have used that person.

Even though pyschics powers may be bs, there could be some interesting pyschological data that comes from a reading that could be derived from it.

I do think a lot of pyschics are people who are very good at reading and understanding human behavior.

[shek]

Originally Posted by Apostapler

Thanks for sharing, Shek. Do you mind telling us what information the psychics who assisted you came up with?

Sorry for the late response. But the first encounter was a call from a man by the name of Clyde Praye who called my husband (who is even more skeptical and less open minded than me on the subject) on a Friday evening telling him he thought he could help us find our daughter. (She was still classified as missing at the time) What did he want? My husband learned he was doctor by trade in a nearby rural town and rarely reached out because of the opportunists that taint the "gift". To my surpise, my husband agreed to meet him for coffee the following morning at a nearby coffee house between 7 -8 AM. He only asked us to bring a few personal belongings of Lisa's - no money. Still skeptical, we met with him the following Saturday morning. We took with us one of Lisa's stuffed animals she kept on her bed, a tennis shoe and a Wyoming map. He was an elderly man in his near 70's, well dressed and appeared to be genuinely concerned. We showed him the map outlining her intended route. After studying the map breifly, he asked he we brought any of Lisa's personal belongings. We handed him her teddy bear and tennis shoe. He held them close to chest and closed his eyes. When he opened his eyes, they were welled up with tears. Then he said that we probabably alreay knew (or sensed) that she was not alive but he was sure he knew where to find her so we could at least bring her home. He went on to explain that she was in the river and then pointed out and circled the location on the map that was near Casper off of HWY 220, which made no sense to us at the time because her intended route would take her on HWY 20-26. Regardless, he insisted she was there. Even though the following day was Easter Sunday, he offered to go with my husband to search for her.They made plans to meet early the following Sunday morning. We left Mr. Praye at about 8:30 AM on Saturday and by 2:PM, fishermen found Lisa's body in the exact location that he pointed out and circled on the map give or take a half mile.

Actually, I am glad the fishermen found her before my husband and Mr. Praye did because there was not doubt that they would have based on the location they planned to search.

Unless there is more interest, I will not go into our second interaction with the "sisters" some years later. It would be a more lenghty story to tell.

[Apostapler]

Originally Posted by shek

Sorry for the late response. But the first encounter was a call from a man by the name of Clyde Praye who called my husband (who is even more skeptical and less open minded than me on the subject) on a Friday evening telling him he thought he could help us find our daughter. (She was still classified as missing at the time) What did he want? My husband learned he was doctor by trade in a nearby rural town and rarely reached out because of the opportunists that taint the "gift". To my surpise, my husband agreed to meet him for coffee the following morning at a nearby coffee house between 7 -8 AM. He only asked us to bring a few personal belongings of Lisa's - no money. Still skeptical, we met with him the following Saturday morning. We took with us one of Lisa's stuffed animals she kept on her bed, a tennis shoe and a Wyoming map. He was an elderly man in his near 70's, well dressed and appeared to be genuinely concerned. We showed him the map outlining her intended route. After studying the map breifly, he asked he we brought any of Lisa's personal belongings. We handed him her teddy bear and tennis shoe. He held them close to chest and closed his eyes. When he opened his eyes, they were welled up with tears. Then he said that we probabably alreay knew (or sensed) that she was not alive but he was sure he knew where to find her so we could at least bring her home. He went on to explain that she was in the river and then pointed out and circled the location on the map that was near Casper off of HWY 220, which made no sense to us at the time because her intended route would take her on HWY 20-26. Regardless, he insisted she was there. Even though the following day was Easter Sunday, he offered to go with my husband to search for her.They made plans to meet early the following Sunday morning. We left Mr. Praye at about 8:30 AM on Saturday and by 2:PM, fishermen found Lisa's body in the exact location that he pointed out and circled on the map give or take a half mile.

Actually, I am glad the fishermen found her before my husband and Mr. Praye did because there was not doubt that they would have based on the location they planned to search.

Unless there is more interest, I will not go into our second interaction with the "sisters" some years later. It would be a more lenghty story to tell.

Wow...so this guy was genuine. Thank you for sharing! I'm weirded out by the story, but in a good way.

[nohwheregirl]

I, for one, would be fascinated to hear about "the sisters," Shek, but please fill us in on your own time. I know it must be tough for you to share these stories.

I am not the kind of person that automatically disbelieves something that can't be explained. I think most "psychics" are probably just looking for money or attention, but I think there are a few people out there who have a special ability that is hard to explain.

[ms_bates]

I consider myself pretty open minded, and I do think that it is very possible that some people do have psychic abilities, ESP, whatever you want to call it.

That said, I think there are a large amount of alleged "psychics" that are either frauds out to gain a buck, or delusional individuals who think they have some kind of super powers that the average person does not. How many times have we heard about a supposed psychic telling police/family that a missing person is "near water"? well okay, great! Does that mean the ocean? a lake? a creek? a puddle?! The descriptions are often so vague that they could match with just about any scenario.

So in answer to the original question: I'd keep an open mind, I'd talk to the person and try and get a feel for their sincerity and sound state of mind. I'd make notes of what they said, and go from there.

[TracyLynnS]

With regards to what Ms. Bates said, when those supposed psychics give such vague clues like "near water", this information can only be connected to the case after the fact.

After the missing person has been found, well... that's when you hear how accurate the psychic was in their "predicitons", because only after the case is solved by traditional means can you say "yes the body was found near water", etc.

The predictions rarely lead anyone to find the victim. Shek has stated that a genuine psychic gave correct information in her case. And I recall the Melanie Uribe case (murdered nurse) where a psychic gave correct information that led to finding her body. But the psychic was locked up in jail for several days on charges of being the murderer!

I have had several experiences myself, that I would call psychic. However, they were of no real value.

For example, as a child, I had a vivid dream that my cousin died. (My cousin was 13 years old when I had this dream, and I was about 9.) I dreamed that her casket was baby blue. Her body was in the funeral home, but the viewing and visitation was being held in the basement.

Well, 10 years later, my cousin died, at age 23. She was driving drunk, and died in a one car accident. She was not wearing her seatbelt, but she did have her 5 year old daughter in her car seat. The child survived.

Nothing else in my dream was accurate. My cousin had requested that she be cremated. Her diary entry about this wish was not discovered until after the family had arranged the funeral. Her casket was not baby blue. The service was held, not in the basement, but in the usual area of the funeral home. After the service, she was cremated, as she had requested.

So, I would consider my dream to be accurate, only in that my cousin died young (this was in the dream), but nothing else in the dream was of any value. I didn't know when or where the death would take place, I had no details that would help prevent the death, etc. All I did was see a future event, which was not accurate in many aspects.

As a teenager, I heard a conversation between my mother and grandmother who were miles away from me at the time. When they returned home, I was able to recite the entire conversation accurately. This was another "psychic" type event that was of no use.

When I recall my less than helpful personal experiences, that makes me question the usefulness of what most psychics have to offer. How accurate are most psychic experiences? What use can they be to helping victims? Etc.

IMO, the majority of people who have some type of psychic ability (the genuine ones) are like mine. They exist, but aren't helpful enough to affect the case.

[Mastermind]

Is getting advice from a psychic really any worse than reading an FBI profile or a regressive analysis report.

I mean ultimately there is no magic or science that's going to tell you where to find your suspect. Ultimately no matter what it's going to be good old fashioned detective work that closes a case.

[Phanekim]

i think general consensus is that psychics have not been proven to be any more accurate...statistically. although i do believe psychics are very perceptive and can offer a unique look into the case that detectives may have not thought of.

i'm a science guy. i've done actual dna testing before although that was not my ultimate destination....i'd take good dna evidence any day. alot of UM cases are cold cases and a vast majority of cold cases have benn solved by dna. thank goodness.

[kadrmas15]

Hmm, I go back and forth on this one. If I were a detective and a psychic offered help on a case I was working, I would certainly listen to anything they had to offer, especially if I have reached many dead ends on other leads. I mean when you are desperate for leads you should pursue all avenues no matter how much of a waste of time it may seem. Of course some psychics are total fakes, out there to make money or seek attention but I think some have legitimate abilities but I also believe that these legitimate abilities fall short of being a total psychic ability. I think that some psychics are people that have superior abilities to read people and pay attention to detail but again I would stop short of saying that any can truly predict the future accurately or things of that nature.

[Mastermind]

So, you're a detective, and you've caught a major case: a child has disappeared perhaps, or an unidentified woman has been found murdered. T

in regards to pyschics in a missing child case.

1.It should be pointed out that in missing child cases where time is even more of the essence any resources will and can be used. Every jurisdiction, neighborhood watches, search parties, EVERYTHING is used to search for the child.

2. Considering the missing child case is a joint FBI/local police/county/state police action. It wouldn't just be my decision to speak to the psychic.

3. The parents could have a lot of say in whether to consult the psychic. Personally if I were a parent I would listen to the psychic out of pure desperation.

Remember. The key in the missing child case is to FIND the child first. Prosecution is secondary, unless you believe it is a murder.

I would be less likely to use a psychic in a murder investigation, unless it is a cold case with no leads.

As good as the psychic could be, he can't testify in court or provide evidence to warrant an arrest of a suspect.

[DJ_Foxx]

I think a scenario like this really happened and it was profiled on UM. I vaguely remember the circumstances but a woman had been abducted. No one was able to find her. This woman comes into the stations saying that she has had dreams about the woman, her murder and where her body could be found. The body is found just where the lady said it would be but she's ultimately arrested for the crime. I forgot how many days/hours the woman was in jail but she was cleared because someone else had confessed to the crime.

i know it was UM that this aired on. in fact, i think it was part of some special segment about psychics....

[Drakken]

Psychics are a waste of time and resource for law enforcement. Their "predictions" are no more no less likely to be true than chance.