Characters or actors? - Sitcoms Online Message Boards

lm · 06-21-2008, 01:49 PM

This is related to the thread about the TV Guide cover, which then moved on to discuss the relationship between Bob Denver and Dawn Wells (I got cut off yesterday and wanted to say something more on it). First of all, on my part, at least, this is not a sensationalistic/tabloid type thing, as I am sure it is not for many of the real GI fans (as opposed perhaps to the media in general). Like other true fans, I love all the characters and the actors who made them come alive for us. Essentially, their personal lives could accurately be said to be "none of our business." Still, we are interested in understanding the actors/characters as best as we can. For this reason, especially since all of the GI books are so reticent about the actors' personal lives, I think it is fine to indulge in our speculations about them, acknowledging, of course, that we do not know the ultimate truth because we are not them.

Now, as to Bob Denver and Dawn Wells. I think Celine had some brilliant insights on the topic. That sounds very feasible (that there was an interest but some kind of glitch for some reason on one or both parts). I agree with her about his book and see this attitude also in other comments he has made on tv interviews, radio interviews, etc. Admitting that I do not know for sure, I'd bet my quarter with Mr. Howell that there is something there; the attitude seems a bit too much. As for her, it is more difficult to say. It seems strange that if he were so interested and she were not that she would encourage such a close friendship over all those years. Dawn Wells also does
not seem to wear her heart on her sleeve the way Bob Denver has. She seems to know what to say and spends most of her comments in this direction on extolling the charms of the Professor, linking them instead. I even read a supposed quote from her saying that, after viewing the GI Musical (which includes the MAG romance in the plot), she could not see how Maryann would have any interest in Gilligan. This sounds pretty unbelievable--unless, unless, she meant in her own conception of the Maryann character, apart from Schwartz's (who is, of course, interested in Gilligan). She has always seemed to me (without reading all the literature at this point) to try to disassociate herself from any MAG linking in any way to the public, although she has seemed incredibly close to Bob Denver. So, who knows.

I also think Celine's comment about the possible "crush" is very insightful.
Some of you cited the actors' comments about there being no "hanky panky" (to use Dawn Wells' words, myself) among the actors. Although this can mean what it seems to suggest--Nothing--it can also have another range of meanings for some--allowing for a one-sided unspoken crush at the minimum to a Clintonesque definition ("I did not have sexual relations with that woman") at the maximum. Even in everyday life, let alone celebrities' lives, people battle over the definitions of these things.

Anyway, that all being said, my question is, if there were actually at the time of GI a romantic relationship, or romantic interest between Bob Denver and Dawn Wells, either mutual or one-sided, isn't there a curious problem? How would we know whether what we see between Gilligan and Maryann is from the characters or actors. This can be a problem, by the way, even if it was merely a friendship. Sometimes actors' relationships color the characters and sometimes character relationships spill over to the actors' lives. What do you think is the case with Gilligan and Maryann? Do you think there is a way to tell?

Céline · 06-22-2008, 03:20 PM

Bob & Dawn were good actors but,eyes never lies.The way they look at each in some scenes,can defenetly tell that something deep was going on between them.They look at each other with some much love and tenderness in their eyes.I have a perfect example in the beauty's contest while Dawn is dancing on the stage,look at Bob's facial expression,he tries to be discret but,sorry,this is a guy in love,she looks at him with lovey dovey eyes,he is totally attracted by her.I think that we know who really won the contest

People will say that they were supposed to act this way in that particular scene.But,seriously did you ever see Gilligan looking at a girl like that?When it was Tina's turn,he didn't even want to look at her.He didn't like Tina at all and it shows just as it's pretty clear that he liked Dawn ALOT.When a guy prefers to knock himself out instead of kissing a beautiful girl.This defenetly means that he doesn't really like the girl in question.But,when he is literally melting when the other girl is just looking at him,there's a good reason to suspect that something more than friendship was going on between them.

I think that they had a short romance,it didn't work out but when the show got cancelled they didn't want to leave each other on a bad note,they patched things up and became really good friends in the process.

Zoneboy · 06-22-2008, 03:49 PM

Can anyone explain why the timestamp on the previous post has changed several times? The timestamps have read 1:20, 2:54, 2:58 and now 3:20. These are the ones I know for sure but it may have changed more than that.

Céline · 06-22-2008, 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zoneboy

Can anyone explain why the timestamp on the previous post has changed several times? The timestamps have read 1:20, 2:54, 2:58 and now 3:20. These are the ones I know for sure but it may have changed more than that.

Sorry about that,I deleted my post because I wasn't satisfied about what I said and where I live it's a different time zone from this site too.

Zoneboy · 06-22-2008, 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Céline

Sorry about that,I deleted my post because I wasn't satisfied about what I said and where I live it's a different time zone from this site too.

No need to apologize and that would explain it.

lm · 06-28-2008, 01:42 PM

Back to your comments, Celine, regarding Bob and Dawn. Yes, I agree about the "eyes" and the looks. But, that's my point. You say you never saw Gilligan look at a girl like that. There are actually times he looks at Ginger with some degree of male/female attraction, I feel, but not love (although he cares for her as a friend). But the looks between Bob and Dawn can also be looks between Gilligan and Maryann. The way Gilligan looks (or does not look) at Ginger could have nothing to do with the way he looks at Maryann, so I don't think we could tell by Ginger. So, again, I ask: how can we tell if it's MAG or Bob and Dawn---or both???? Anyone else, please feel free to offer your wise insights on this!

mrs.gingerhinkley · 06-29-2008, 04:31 PM

This is a really interesting topic. I would definately have to say the mutual dislike between Bob and Tina shines through the characters at certain points in the show. Like, for example, when Ginger is suppossed to frustrated with Gilligan or something, it just seems over enthusiastic. And the same sort of thing with Bob's Gilligan.
But as far as Dawn and Bob go, I like Celine's theory. There was definately something that clicked between them. This of course can be seen through obvious occurances such as the TV Guide cover inncident, Bob's book, and Dawn's very congenial attitude towards him in interviews and such. There are also the less obvious clues like you guys have pointed out. The eyes definately reveal more than intended. I totally agree with you, Celine, on that.
Back to lm's original question though. There's no definate way to determine what is in and what is out of character in these situations as just a viewer. However, there are certain things we can assume. We can take into account the present situation and if the reaction of MA or G is appropriate. We can compare how that reaction would stay the same or change if it had been a different character. And, I mean, there is going to be some scenes that are more revealing than others.
Then, we also have to realize that we don't really know what Sherwood Shwartz original intentions were. Of course we know the ultimate plan if the series ran long enough for MAG and GP. But did he plan to just bring the relationships to the surface abruptly or have it suggested ever so slightly as the episodes progressed? We don't know what the writers were thinking for each script, or even if they were considering the pairings, and also, how they shipped! Keep in mind that the writers varied per episode, so there were inconsistencies in normal things, let alone relationships. Would they add a certain scene just to imply a particular romantic possibiltity? Or was it just up to the actors to interpret it. And that's where we come back to the question, 'character' or 'actor'.
We must further consider, what was the view of the actors in terms of realtionships between castaways. One of the reasons Bob had it against Tina was because he didn't think that the element of sex, or romance, that Ginger debateably brought to the island. So does that mean he'd be against any pairing, even MAG. I'm going to say no; this is similar, once again, to the TV Guide issue. It is my opinion that it is more of a Tina-Bob rift than anything else. I don't think Bob or Dawn would mind the MAG pairing as it would reflect their personal interests. So my answer would be that it is a mingling of both character and actor. In this case, Bob and Dawn as actors liked each other, and also felt that was the feeling between G and MA so incorrporated this into their acting.

Céline · 06-29-2008, 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrs.gingerhinkley

This is a really interesting topic. I would definately have to say the mutual dislike between Bob and Tina shines through the characters at certain points in the show. Like, for example, when Ginger is suppossed to frustrated with Gilligan or something, it just seems over enthusiastic. And the same sort of thing with Bob's Gilligan.
But as far as Dawn and Bob go, I like Celine's theory. There was definately something that clicked between them. This of course can be seen through obvious occurances such as the TV Guide cover inncident, Bob's book, and Dawn's very congenial attitude towards him in interviews and such. There are also the less obvious clues like you guys have pointed out. The eyes definately reveal more than intended. I totally agree with you, Celine, on that.
Back to lm's original question though. There's no definate way to determine what is in and what is out of character in these situations as just a viewer. However, there are certain things we can assume. We can take into account the present situation and if the reaction of MA or G is appropriate. We can compare how that reaction would stay the same or change if it had been a different character. And, I mean, there is going to be some scenes that are more revealing than others.
Then, we also have to realize that we don't really know what Sherwood Shwartz original intentions were. Of course we know the ultimate plan if the series ran long enough for MAG and GP. But did he plan to just bring the relationships to the surface abruptly or have it suggested ever so slightly as the episodes progressed? We don't know what the writers were thinking for each script, or even if they were considering the pairings, and also, how they shipped! Keep in mind that the writers varied per episode, so there were inconsistencies in normal things, let alone relationships. Would they add a certain scene just to imply a particular romantic possibiltity? Or was it just up to the actors to interpret it. And that's where we come back to the question, 'character' or 'actor'.
We must further consider, what was the view of the actors in terms of realtionships between castaways. One of the reasons Bob had it against Tina was because he didn't think that the element of sex, or romance, that Ginger debateably brought to the island. So does that mean he'd be against any pairing, even MAG. I'm going to say no; this is similar, once again, to the TV Guide issue. It is my opinion that it is more of a Tina-Bob rift than anything else. I don't think Bob or Dawn would mind the MAG pairing as it would reflect their personal interests. So my answer would be that it is a mingling of both character and actor. In this case, Bob and Dawn as actors liked each other, and also felt that was the feeling between G and MA so incorrporated this into their acting.

That's exactly what I was trying to say.But,we can see just by watching them acting toward each other that Bob & Dawn had the most special bound of the show.I can totally see them flirting in scenes like I can see some dislike from Tina & Bob's part.

Did you know that The Matchmaker's episode was supposed to be the beginning of MAG's romance?They were supposed to get married by the skipper ect...but,Schwartz's plan backfired cause of the censors.I noticed that before that ep,MAG's relationship had a romantic vibe then they slowly distanced themselves after and became like brother & sister.

That's why in the particular scene of the beauty's pageant,Gilligan was not supposed to do a lust look like that to Mary Ann...No way!!!He was totally out of character then Bob noticed what he was doing and as discretly as possible stopped.Even Mary Ann had a weird smile on her face and was not her usual behavior.My husband who usually never pays attention to detailes saw it too.He made a joke about it...may be Mary Ann didn't wear any panties

lm · 08-09-2008, 01:35 PM

This is such a great discussion! To continue where we left off (or as
Gilligan says to Maryann, "Where were we?")...I never saw (without re-
watching recently) Gilligan's look at Maryann during the tap dance as a lust look. I saw it more as a mutual, intimate look between them and it seems very real. There are plenty of other Gilligan to Maryann looks in that episode both at the contest and in the opening scene.

I do feel there are also many looks after "The Matchmaker" and throughout the series that have nothing brotherly/sisterly about them (at least not according to where I come from!). So the post "Matchm." looks having to be BD and DW because the G/M connection was cut may not be the case. (I don't know)

Also, if BD and DW had some kind of secret "romance," why would they take any chance and let it slip out in overt looks toward one another and blow their cover. Also, if it were not in line with the characters, wouldn't that
risk to some extent their continuation in the series and possibly the success of the series itself, since it wouldn't be the best acting move?

What I always found curious about these two actors was that they were two young, attractive people of the opposite sex who seemed to hook up very quickly. Of course, they were similar in age but it would seem more expected for same-sex actors to hook up as such fast friends more easily
(Gilligan and the Skipper). So, Platonic?

lm · 08-09-2008, 02:09 PM

Sorry, I was cut off. To continue. Let me interject again that this is human behavior and feelings we are discussing, so anything goes, of course; it is not scientific laws of the universe here!

If the relationship wasn't platonic, why didn't the two ever marry? Weren't they both divorced at the same time at some point? Unfortunately, all the GI books do not go into the actors' personal relationships or romantic lives in any depth, timetables, etc. Even BD's book (I've only skimmed thus far) doesn't go into his marriages/divorces). Let's suppose DW didn't want to marry, since BD certainly had no aversion to the institution, why the continued close relationship, comments, actions over the years? It puzzles me. This was even throughout BD's marriages, it seems. (I'm not suggesting anything happened then--I don't know--I'm not them and wasn't there). Let's say they broke up, again, why the continued intense relationship--is that typical? Another curious thing is that even in "Surviving GI," with DW as producer--they seem inordinately close and romantically tinged (am I imagining?) If they were romantically linked during GI, would they present this overtly in looks between the characters, blowing their cover and possibly affecting their status as actors and the series itself if G/M werent linked?
If they had romantic connections, the last thing they'd want, I'd think, was to be off GI or have it cancelled--if that was their opportunity to be together freely. It's all very puzzling. I feel the censors will be upon us soon to wash these queries out of our brains.

Anyway, how can one know, as I asked originally, where G/M and BD/DW begin and end? I know we attempted to answer this, but any more thoughts?
Is it G looking at M or BD looking at DW? Is it M acting specially toward G or DW being extra nice to BD? How could we tell?

I've opened this up to other people and the answers were you can't tell in any way or one person said look at them in other things==but they're usually playing G and M in those things also! And lets say both are true, characters and actors are BOTH romantically connected--how could we tell if a specific look is from them or from the characters? I think this is really hard. Any more
ideas?

06-21-2008, 01:49 PM	#1
lm Member Frequent Poster Join Date: Jul 29, 2006 Location: New York Posts: 469	Characters or actors? This is related to the thread about the TV Guide cover, which then moved on to discuss the relationship between Bob Denver and Dawn Wells (I got cut off yesterday and wanted to say something more on it). First of all, on my part, at least, this is not a sensationalistic/tabloid type thing, as I am sure it is not for many of the real GI fans (as opposed perhaps to the media in general). Like other true fans, I love all the characters and the actors who made them come alive for us. Essentially, their personal lives could accurately be said to be "none of our business." Still, we are interested in understanding the actors/characters as best as we can. For this reason, especially since all of the GI books are so reticent about the actors' personal lives, I think it is fine to indulge in our speculations about them, acknowledging, of course, that we do not know the ultimate truth because we are not them. Now, as to Bob Denver and Dawn Wells. I think Celine had some brilliant insights on the topic. That sounds very feasible (that there was an interest but some kind of glitch for some reason on one or both parts). I agree with her about his book and see this attitude also in other comments he has made on tv interviews, radio interviews, etc. Admitting that I do not know for sure, I'd bet my quarter with Mr. Howell that there is something there; the attitude seems a bit too much. As for her, it is more difficult to say. It seems strange that if he were so interested and she were not that she would encourage such a close friendship over all those years. Dawn Wells also does not seem to wear her heart on her sleeve the way Bob Denver has. She seems to know what to say and spends most of her comments in this direction on extolling the charms of the Professor, linking them instead. I even read a supposed quote from her saying that, after viewing the GI Musical (which includes the MAG romance in the plot), she could not see how Maryann would have any interest in Gilligan. This sounds pretty unbelievable--unless, unless, she meant in her own conception of the Maryann character, apart from Schwartz's (who is, of course, interested in Gilligan). She has always seemed to me (without reading all the literature at this point) to try to disassociate herself from any MAG linking in any way to the public, although she has seemed incredibly close to Bob Denver. So, who knows. I also think Celine's comment about the possible "crush" is very insightful. Some of you cited the actors' comments about there being no "hanky panky" (to use Dawn Wells' words, myself) among the actors. Although this can mean what it seems to suggest--Nothing--it can also have another range of meanings for some--allowing for a one-sided unspoken crush at the minimum to a Clintonesque definition ("I did not have sexual relations with that woman") at the maximum. Even in everyday life, let alone celebrities' lives, people battle over the definitions of these things. Anyway, that all being said, my question is, if there were actually at the time of GI a romantic relationship, or romantic interest between Bob Denver and Dawn Wells, either mutual or one-sided, isn't there a curious problem? How would we know whether what we see between Gilligan and Maryann is from the characters or actors. This can be a problem, by the way, even if it was merely a friendship. Sometimes actors' relationships color the characters and sometimes character relationships spill over to the actors' lives. What do you think is the case with Gilligan and Maryann? Do you think there is a way to tell?

06-22-2008, 03:49 PM	#3
Zoneboy RIP, I'LL NEVER FORGET YOU :( Moderator Forum Superstar Join Date: Jul 13, 2003 Location: AT HOME WISHING ALL THIS WAS JUST A DREAM AND THAT I'LL WAKE UP FROM THIS NIGHTMARE. Posts: 34,412	Can anyone explain why the timestamp on the previous post has changed several times? The timestamps have read 1:20, 2:54, 2:58 and now 3:20. These are the ones I know for sure but it may have changed more than that.
	__________________ 'Twas The Night Before Christmas And All Through The Full House Not A Creature Was Stirring, Not Even Mighty Mouse. All My Children We're Nestled All Snug In Their Beds While Visions Of Sugarbakers Danced In Their Heads.

06-29-2008, 04:31 PM	#7
mrs.gingerhinkley Bette Davis Fan Senior Member Join Date: Jan 06, 2007 Posts: 2,478	This is a really interesting topic. I would definately have to say the mutual dislike between Bob and Tina shines through the characters at certain points in the show. Like, for example, when Ginger is suppossed to frustrated with Gilligan or something, it just seems over enthusiastic. And the same sort of thing with Bob's Gilligan. But as far as Dawn and Bob go, I like Celine's theory. There was definately something that clicked between them. This of course can be seen through obvious occurances such as the TV Guide cover inncident, Bob's book, and Dawn's very congenial attitude towards him in interviews and such. There are also the less obvious clues like you guys have pointed out. The eyes definately reveal more than intended. I totally agree with you, Celine, on that. Back to lm's original question though. There's no definate way to determine what is in and what is out of character in these situations as just a viewer. However, there are certain things we can assume. We can take into account the present situation and if the reaction of MA or G is appropriate. We can compare how that reaction would stay the same or change if it had been a different character. And, I mean, there is going to be some scenes that are more revealing than others. Then, we also have to realize that we don't really know what Sherwood Shwartz original intentions were. Of course we know the ultimate plan if the series ran long enough for MAG and GP. But did he plan to just bring the relationships to the surface abruptly or have it suggested ever so slightly as the episodes progressed? We don't know what the writers were thinking for each script, or even if they were considering the pairings, and also, how they shipped! Keep in mind that the writers varied per episode, so there were inconsistencies in normal things, let alone relationships. Would they add a certain scene just to imply a particular romantic possibiltity? Or was it just up to the actors to interpret it. And that's where we come back to the question, 'character' or 'actor'. We must further consider, what was the view of the actors in terms of realtionships between castaways. One of the reasons Bob had it against Tina was because he didn't think that the element of sex, or romance, that Ginger debateably brought to the island. So does that mean he'd be against any pairing, even MAG. I'm going to say no; this is similar, once again, to the TV Guide issue. It is my opinion that it is more of a Tina-Bob rift than anything else. I don't think Bob or Dawn would mind the MAG pairing as it would reflect their personal interests. So my answer would be that it is a mingling of both character and actor. In this case, Bob and Dawn as actors liked each other, and also felt that was the feeling between G and MA so incorrporated this into their acting.
	__________________ Those who dream by day are cognizant of many things which escape those who dream only by night. -Edgar Allen Poe God Bless Our Troops

06-22-2008, 03:20 PM	#2
Céline Member Senior Member Join Date: Jan 29, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 1,606	Bob & Dawn were good actors but,eyes never lies.The way they look at each in some scenes,can defenetly tell that something deep was going on between them.They look at each other with some much love and tenderness in their eyes.I have a perfect example in the beauty's contest while Dawn is dancing on the stage,look at Bob's facial expression,he tries to be discret but,sorry,this is a guy in love,she looks at him with lovey dovey eyes,he is totally attracted by her.I think that we know who really won the contest People will say that they were supposed to act this way in that particular scene.But,seriously did you ever see Gilligan looking at a girl like that?When it was Tina's turn,he didn't even want to look at her.He didn't like Tina at all and it shows just as it's pretty clear that he liked Dawn ALOT.When a guy prefers to knock himself out instead of kissing a beautiful girl.This defenetly means that he doesn't really like the girl in question.But,when he is literally melting when the other girl is just looking at him,there's a good reason to suspect that something more than friendship was going on between them. I think that they had a short romance,it didn't work out but when the show got cancelled they didn't want to leave each other on a bad note,they patched things up and became really good friends in the process.

06-28-2008, 01:42 PM	#6
lm Member Frequent Poster Join Date: Jul 29, 2006 Location: New York Posts: 469	Back to your comments, Celine, regarding Bob and Dawn. Yes, I agree about the "eyes" and the looks. But, that's my point. You say you never saw Gilligan look at a girl like that. There are actually times he looks at Ginger with some degree of male/female attraction, I feel, but not love (although he cares for her as a friend). But the looks between Bob and Dawn can also be looks between Gilligan and Maryann. The way Gilligan looks (or does not look) at Ginger could have nothing to do with the way he looks at Maryann, so I don't think we could tell by Ginger. So, again, I ask: how can we tell if it's MAG or Bob and Dawn---or both???? Anyone else, please feel free to offer your wise insights on this!

08-09-2008, 01:35 PM	#9
lm Member Frequent Poster Join Date: Jul 29, 2006 Location: New York Posts: 469	This is such a great discussion! To continue where we left off (or as Gilligan says to Maryann, "Where were we?")...I never saw (without re- watching recently) Gilligan's look at Maryann during the tap dance as a lust look. I saw it more as a mutual, intimate look between them and it seems very real. There are plenty of other Gilligan to Maryann looks in that episode both at the contest and in the opening scene. I do feel there are also many looks after "The Matchmaker" and throughout the series that have nothing brotherly/sisterly about them (at least not according to where I come from!). So the post "Matchm." looks having to be BD and DW because the G/M connection was cut may not be the case. (I don't know) Also, if BD and DW had some kind of secret "romance," why would they take any chance and let it slip out in overt looks toward one another and blow their cover. Also, if it were not in line with the characters, wouldn't that risk to some extent their continuation in the series and possibly the success of the series itself, since it wouldn't be the best acting move? What I always found curious about these two actors was that they were two young, attractive people of the opposite sex who seemed to hook up very quickly. Of course, they were similar in age but it would seem more expected for same-sex actors to hook up as such fast friends more easily (Gilligan and the Skipper). So, Platonic?

08-09-2008, 02:09 PM	#10
lm Member Frequent Poster Join Date: Jul 29, 2006 Location: New York Posts: 469	Sorry, I was cut off. To continue. Let me interject again that this is human behavior and feelings we are discussing, so anything goes, of course; it is not scientific laws of the universe here! If the relationship wasn't platonic, why didn't the two ever marry? Weren't they both divorced at the same time at some point? Unfortunately, all the GI books do not go into the actors' personal relationships or romantic lives in any depth, timetables, etc. Even BD's book (I've only skimmed thus far) doesn't go into his marriages/divorces). Let's suppose DW didn't want to marry, since BD certainly had no aversion to the institution, why the continued close relationship, comments, actions over the years? It puzzles me. This was even throughout BD's marriages, it seems. (I'm not suggesting anything happened then--I don't know--I'm not them and wasn't there). Let's say they broke up, again, why the continued intense relationship--is that typical? Another curious thing is that even in "Surviving GI," with DW as producer--they seem inordinately close and romantically tinged (am I imagining?) If they were romantically linked during GI, would they present this overtly in looks between the characters, blowing their cover and possibly affecting their status as actors and the series itself if G/M werent linked? If they had romantic connections, the last thing they'd want, I'd think, was to be off GI or have it cancelled--if that was their opportunity to be together freely. It's all very puzzling. I feel the censors will be upon us soon to wash these queries out of our brains. Anyway, how can one know, as I asked originally, where G/M and BD/DW begin and end? I know we attempted to answer this, but any more thoughts? Is it G looking at M or BD looking at DW? Is it M acting specially toward G or DW being extra nice to BD? How could we tell? I've opened this up to other people and the answers were you can't tell in any way or one person said look at them in other things==but they're usually playing G and M in those things also! And lets say both are true, characters and actors are BOTH romantically connected--how could we tell if a specific look is from them or from the characters? I think this is really hard. Any more ideas?