Was Archie a hateful bigot or just misunderstood? - Sitcoms Online Message Boards

Brian Damage · 03-25-2008, 09:12 PM

I don't think Archie was a hateful bigot, he was just brought up in a different time and place.

Scoobiedoo30 · 03-25-2008, 09:42 PM

Misunderstood

tdr · 03-26-2008, 04:48 PM

I don't think either are the precise answer. For whatever reason(s), Archie did not seem to have the mental capacity to get beyond what he was taught early in life; and in that later ep where he and Mike are trapped in the cold cellar, it is indicated that the abuse that went with such learning played a big part in that. He was a bigot, but not the kind who wants to kill anyone just for being different; so "hateful bigot" is not the right description. But it's also hard to say he was "misunderstood," as he actually did want to keep a separation between himself and those who were different. Most people who knew Archie did understand him and could be judgmental or sympathetic, occasionally both at the same time.

Dr. Thong · 03-26-2008, 06:46 PM

When the KKK tried to recruit Archie and make him burn a cross on Mike's lawn, he was horrified and refused. Obviously because it was his son-in-law and daughter, but I don't think Archie would have done that to a black family, either.

He didn't want the Jeffersons in his neighborhood, but Louise and Henry were frequently in his home. He disagreed with Henry and George, but I don't think he disliked them.

I think Archie was ignorant and that was because of how he was raised. Mike, too, was raised by a bigoted father, but developed a different outlook because of it.

I think Archie was a good man down deep, but a flawed one.

desilu #1 · 04-19-2008, 06:23 PM

No way was Archie a hateful bigot because he wasn't violent. I'm not sure I could call him misunderstood either because he was definately a bigot, but it was all a result of his upbringing and his refusal to change. I think it can be hard to change when circumstances don't change. Then you have an over-opinionated meathead in the house who doesn't work and argues every point and makes you feel that you are wrong just because he disagrees.

PlayOn · 04-25-2008, 09:19 PM

misunderstood. he just didn't phrase things right, therefore, he was misunderstood of being a bigot.

OH Nuts! · 04-26-2008, 12:33 AM

Archie was a bigot but he wasn't hateful. I think much of his prejudices came from ignorance. It was revealed on the show that he didn't have a lot of education. I don't think Edith did either but she had a high EQ (emotional quotient). She was very attuned to others' feelings and sensitivities--which Archie was not.

I agree with Dr. Thong that deep down Archie was a decent man--maybe Archie's bigotry was his way of hiding vulnerability due to the weaknesses above.

Dr. Thong · 04-26-2008, 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rich p

Archie was a bigot but he wasn't hateful. I think much of his prejudices came from ignorance. It was revealed on the show that he didn't have a lot of education. I don't think Edith did either but she had a high EQ (emotional quotient). She was very attuned to others' feelings and sensitivities--which Archie was not.

I agree with Dr. Thong that deep down Archie was a decent man--maybe Archie's bigotry was his way of hiding vulnerability due to the weaknesses above.

I think Archie felt afraid and threatened - that minorities would take his job, etc. He also didn't understand their culture. He was raised during a pretty "white" era.

But if you think about it, you could tell he liked Lionel Jefferson, even if he was condescending to him. Like I've said before, in later years, after Edith died, he hired a black housekeeper, Mrs. Canby. Would Archie have done something like that in the early years of AITF?? Doubt it.

There was a TV Guide article around 1977 that posed the question: Has Archie gotten soft?? It noted that Archie wasn't as rough around the edges as he'd been in earlier seasons and that in his own way, he'd evolved a bit.

Archie was never going to win a nobel peace prize, but he

vtunie · 04-27-2008, 07:57 PM

He was a hateful bigot. And everyone understood that.

But hey, so what -- hateful and hatable are different things.

OH Nuts! · 04-29-2008, 07:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr. Thong

I think Archie felt afraid and threatened - that minorities would take his job, etc. He also didn't understand their culture. He was raised during a pretty "white" era.

But if you think about it, you could tell he liked Lionel Jefferson, even if he was condescending to him. Like I've said before, in later years, after Edith died, he hired a black housekeeper, Mrs. Canby. Would Archie have done something like that in the early years of AITF?? Doubt it.

There was a TV Guide article around 1977 that posed the question: Has Archie gotten soft?? It noted that Archie wasn't as rough around the edges as he'd been in earlier seasons and that in his own way, he'd evolved a bit.

Archie was never going to win a nobel peace prize, but he

Yes, there were layers to Archie's character, that the show let us see over time.

TV DVD Fan · 04-29-2008, 09:19 AM

It is very easy to misconstrue the character of Archie Bunker--- he does come across as a bigot (certainly not a hateful one though). However, in my personal opinion, he's not really a bigot. He just has the wrong outlook on things because (as previously mentioned) of his flawed upbringing. He was brought up in a time where he was TOLD to hate black people, Mexicans, and basically any minority group! I don't think he ever questioned it. One of the saddest (and one of the most vulnerable for Archie) moments that I've ever seen on television came from the episode where Archie and Mike get trapped in the basement. They opened up to each other and really got to appreciate and respect each other in a whole, new, different light. They began to finally understand each other.

"Arch, your father was wrong!"- Mike
"Don't tell me my father was wrong! Let me tell you something! Your father who made you...wrong? Your father, the breadwinner of the house...the man who goes out and busts his butt to keep a roof over your head, clothes on your back...you call your father wrong? Hey...hey. (shakes his head) Your father, that's the man who comes home, bringing you candy. Your father's the first guy to throw a baseball to you...and take you for walks in the park. My father, held me by the hand...he had a hand...(looks at his own hand) he busted it on me..."- Archie

That was one of the most touching things I've ever seen on TV. And when Mike says "Goodnight, shobootie..." It was brilliant writing... and even greater acting.

So I don't think Archie was a bigot... but a rather a man who just never had his facts straight due to poor education (he thinks charisma is a disease!), and a man who was brought up in a hateful time. I think he had true emotional depth that we really got to see shine in the later years of ALL IN THE FAMILY and in ARCHIE BUNKER'S PLACE. He was a compassionate man who really did care about his fellow man... albeit it in a very unusual way. He condescends black people and other minorities, but I think he does it as his own little way of trying to make life better for them so that everybody can one day be equal. He knows deep down that his upbringing was flawed, as is evident in "Two's a Crowd," but he still knows no other way of living. And he does still think that it is the white people's job to take the reigns and run the world... but unlike a racist or a bigot, he IS trying to improve minorities' lot in life by giving them his own little (hilarious) helpful hints--- in the hopes that one day we can run the world together in harmony. I think there's a little bit of Archie Bunker in all of his. We're all a little misunderstood... a little flawed... and a lot loving.

His emotional depth of character and his true humanity is why he is ranked the number one TV character of all time (by Bravo). And I believe he is.

Dr. Thong · 04-29-2008, 07:20 PM

TVDVDfan,

I think you summed it up aptly. I can't think of anything else to add to that. Brilliant analysis. If Archie was a true bigot, I don't think he'd be resonating with audiences to this very day. He would be seen as a relic of a politically incorrect era. And a cautionary one at that.

I worked with a older black woman who was very religious and we talked about Archie Bunker and she agreed that if anyone thought that program glorified bigotry, they weren't getting the point. She also thought it was funny when Jefferson was equally as screwed up as Archie when it came to the racial thing.

I later worked with a black guy from Haiti, whose situation was different from many black men here in that he grew up around a lot of white people and didn't encounter the black/white racial thing until he came to this country. He absolutely loves Archie Bunker and used to howl at some of his dialogue, even stuff that a black man might consider offensive.

Two different perspectives, but they were able to get something out of it beyond just a laugh.

mrbig · 06-20-2008, 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tdr

I don't think either are the precise answer. For whatever reason(s), Archie did not seem to have the mental capacity to get beyond what he was taught early in life; and in that later ep where he and Mike are trapped in the cold cellar, it is indicated that the abuse that went with such learning played a big part in that. He was a bigot, but not the kind who wants to kill anyone just for being different; so "hateful bigot" is not the right description. But it's also hard to say he was "misunderstood," as he actually did want to keep a separation between himself and those who were different. Most people who knew Archie did understand him and could be judgmental or sympathetic, occasionally both at the same time.

What was the name of that episode. That was one of my favourite episodes. Shoebooty.. .lmao..

Yooch · 06-20-2008, 04:38 PM

Several of you have expressed it so well. That 'Greatest Generation' genration?--(WWII and Depression) were a mass of contradictions, but they were a great generation, in my opinion. My own dad was of that generation and often expressed (much to my chagrin) some of the same opinions as Archie, but to know my dad, when it came down to it, I always observed him treating everyone with respect, regardless of their race or background, not just pleasantries. My dad worked for a big NYC company and when he became a supervisor was known as being fair. He'd go to bat for people, regardless of their background, for promotions, etc. It didn't matter if the person was Puerto Rican, Black, White--it didn't matter. He always made sure everyone was treated right.

I think Archie was similar. He talked a good game, but was basically a decent person.

tv star collector · 06-20-2008, 07:05 PM

From the classic episode with guest star Sammy Davis Jr.:

Gloria: "I'm sorry, Mr. Davis. Sometimes my father says the wrong thing .."
Lionel: "But he's not a bad guy ... I mean, he'd never burn a cross on your
lawn."
Sammy: "No, but if he saw one burnin', he's liable to toast a marshmallow on it!"

03-25-2008, 09:12 PM	#1
Brian Damage I'm Rich Bitch Forum Icon Join Date: Feb 03, 2002 Location: What Ain't No Country I Ever Heard Of...They Speak English in What? Posts: 63,107	Was Archie a hateful bigot or just misunderstood? I don't think Archie was a hateful bigot, he was just brought up in a different time and place.
	__________________ The Key to the Kingdom of Heaven: John 3:3 *Money Doesn't Buy Happiness...But I'd Rather Cry in My Private Jet*

03-25-2008, 09:42 PM	#2
Scoobiedoo30 Member Forum Superstar Join Date: Jun 27, 2002 Location: KENNER, LOUISIANA Posts: 27,654	Misunderstood
	__________________ Who Dat

03-26-2008, 04:48 PM	#3
tdr Member Senior Member Join Date: Mar 23, 2001 Posts: 1,454	I don't think either are the precise answer. For whatever reason(s), Archie did not seem to have the mental capacity to get beyond what he was taught early in life; and in that later ep where he and Mike are trapped in the cold cellar, it is indicated that the abuse that went with such learning played a big part in that. He was a bigot, but not the kind who wants to kill anyone just for being different; so "hateful bigot" is not the right description. But it's also hard to say he was "misunderstood," as he actually did want to keep a separation between himself and those who were different. Most people who knew Archie did understand him and could be judgmental or sympathetic, occasionally both at the same time.
	Last edited by tdr; 04-25-2008 at 04:33 PM.

03-26-2008, 06:46 PM	#4
Dr. Thong a/k/a "ACK!" Forum Veteran Join Date: Jul 10, 2001 Location: New Hampshire, USA Posts: 5,546	When the KKK tried to recruit Archie and make him burn a cross on Mike's lawn, he was horrified and refused. Obviously because it was his son-in-law and daughter, but I don't think Archie would have done that to a black family, either. He didn't want the Jeffersons in his neighborhood, but Louise and Henry were frequently in his home. He disagreed with Henry and George, but I don't think he disliked them. I think Archie was ignorant and that was because of how he was raised. Mike, too, was raised by a bigoted father, but developed a different outlook because of it. I think Archie was a good man down deep, but a flawed one.
	__________________ "Sunday has been cancelled due to lack of interest. That is all."

04-19-2008, 06:23 PM	#5
desilu #1 Lucy/Desi 4-EVER Forum Regular Join Date: Sep 23, 2000 Location: Battle Creek, Michigan USA Posts: 724	No way was Archie a hateful bigot because he wasn't violent. I'm not sure I could call him misunderstood either because he was definately a bigot, but it was all a result of his upbringing and his refusal to change. I think it can be hard to change when circumstances don't change. Then you have an over-opinionated meathead in the house who doesn't work and argues every point and makes you feel that you are wrong just because he disagrees.
	__________________ Amy M. Weaver

04-25-2008, 09:19 PM	#6
PlayOn ADHD: what I have not who I am Senior Member Join Date: Jun 17, 2006 Location: I'll never tell. :p Posts: 2,745	misunderstood. he just didn't phrase things right, therefore, he was misunderstood of being a bigot.
	__________________ Have you heard the ? Jesus saves!!!

04-26-2008, 12:33 AM	#7
OH Nuts! Member Forum King Join Date: Feb 15, 2005 Posts: 133,383	Archie was a bigot but he wasn't hateful. I think much of his prejudices came from ignorance. It was revealed on the show that he didn't have a lot of education. I don't think Edith did either but she had a high EQ (emotional quotient). She was very attuned to others' feelings and sensitivities--which Archie was not. I agree with Dr. Thong that deep down Archie was a decent man--maybe Archie's bigotry was his way of hiding vulnerability due to the weaknesses above.

04-27-2008, 07:57 PM	#9
vtunie Member Forum Regular Join Date: Oct 23, 2007 Location: Canada Posts: 592	He was a hateful bigot. And everyone understood that. But hey, so what -- hateful and hatable are different things.

04-29-2008, 09:19 AM	#11
TV DVD Fan Member Senior Member Join Date: Apr 07, 2005 Posts: 2,602	It is very easy to misconstrue the character of Archie Bunker--- he does come across as a bigot (certainly not a hateful one though). However, in my personal opinion, he's not really a bigot. He just has the wrong outlook on things because (as previously mentioned) of his flawed upbringing. He was brought up in a time where he was TOLD to hate black people, Mexicans, and basically any minority group! I don't think he ever questioned it. One of the saddest (and one of the most vulnerable for Archie) moments that I've ever seen on television came from the episode where Archie and Mike get trapped in the basement. They opened up to each other and really got to appreciate and respect each other in a whole, new, different light. They began to finally understand each other. "Arch, your father was wrong!"- Mike "Don't tell me my father was wrong! Let me tell you something! Your father who made you...wrong? Your father, the breadwinner of the house...the man who goes out and busts his butt to keep a roof over your head, clothes on your back...you call your father wrong? Hey...hey. (shakes his head) Your father, that's the man who comes home, bringing you candy. Your father's the first guy to throw a baseball to you...and take you for walks in the park. My father, held me by the hand...he had a hand...(looks at his own hand) he busted it on me..."- Archie That was one of the most touching things I've ever seen on TV. And when Mike says "Goodnight, shobootie..." It was brilliant writing... and even greater acting. So I don't think Archie was a bigot... but a rather a man who just never had his facts straight due to poor education (he thinks charisma is a disease!), and a man who was brought up in a hateful time. I think he had true emotional depth that we really got to see shine in the later years of ALL IN THE FAMILY and in ARCHIE BUNKER'S PLACE. He was a compassionate man who really did care about his fellow man... albeit it in a very unusual way. He condescends black people and other minorities, but I think he does it as his own little way of trying to make life better for them so that everybody can one day be equal. He knows deep down that his upbringing was flawed, as is evident in "Two's a Crowd," but he still knows no other way of living. And he does still think that it is the white people's job to take the reigns and run the world... but unlike a racist or a bigot, he IS trying to improve minorities' lot in life by giving them his own little (hilarious) helpful hints--- in the hopes that one day we can run the world together in harmony. I think there's a little bit of Archie Bunker in all of his. We're all a little misunderstood... a little flawed... and a lot loving. His emotional depth of character and his true humanity is why he is ranked the number one TV character of all time (by Bravo). And I believe he is.
	__________________ Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles Sarah Connor: Maybe if you spend your life hiding who you are, you might finally end up fooling yourself. - From the episode "Gnothi Seauton."

04-29-2008, 07:20 PM	#12
Dr. Thong a/k/a "ACK!" Forum Veteran Join Date: Jul 10, 2001 Location: New Hampshire, USA Posts: 5,546	TVDVDfan, I think you summed it up aptly. I can't think of anything else to add to that. Brilliant analysis. If Archie was a true bigot, I don't think he'd be resonating with audiences to this very day. He would be seen as a relic of a politically incorrect era. And a cautionary one at that. I worked with a older black woman who was very religious and we talked about Archie Bunker and she agreed that if anyone thought that program glorified bigotry, they weren't getting the point. She also thought it was funny when Jefferson was equally as screwed up as Archie when it came to the racial thing. I later worked with a black guy from Haiti, whose situation was different from many black men here in that he grew up around a lot of white people and didn't encounter the black/white racial thing until he came to this country. He absolutely loves Archie Bunker and used to howl at some of his dialogue, even stuff that a black man might consider offensive. Two different perspectives, but they were able to get something out of it beyond just a laugh.

06-20-2008, 04:38 PM	#14
Yooch Member Forum 3000 Club Member Join Date: Apr 07, 2006 Location: California Posts: 3,180	Several of you have expressed it so well. That 'Greatest Generation' genration?--(WWII and Depression) were a mass of contradictions, but they were a great generation, in my opinion. My own dad was of that generation and often expressed (much to my chagrin) some of the same opinions as Archie, but to know my dad, when it came down to it, I always observed him treating everyone with respect, regardless of their race or background, not just pleasantries. My dad worked for a big NYC company and when he became a supervisor was known as being fair. He'd go to bat for people, regardless of their background, for promotions, etc. It didn't matter if the person was Puerto Rican, Black, White--it didn't matter. He always made sure everyone was treated right. I think Archie was similar. He talked a good game, but was basically a decent person.
	__________________ "The true meaning of America, you ask? It's in a Texas rodeo, in a policeman's badge, in the sound of laughing children, in a political rally, in a newspaper...In all these things and many more, you'll find freedom. And freedom is what America means to the world. And to me." --Audie Leon Murphy June 20, 1924-- May 28, 1971

06-20-2008, 07:05 PM	#15
tv star collector I Love Susie Forum 4000 Club Member Join Date: Oct 18, 2005 Location: South Carolina Posts: 4,486	From the classic episode with guest star Sammy Davis Jr.: Gloria: "I'm sorry, Mr. Davis. Sometimes my father says the wrong thing .." Lionel: "But he's not a bad guy ... I mean, he'd never burn a cross on your lawn." Sammy: "No, but if he saw one burnin', he's liable to toast a marshmallow on it!"