Zodiac?

[Heriberto]

What ever happened to him?

[Cursiorandcursior]

Originally Posted by Heriberto

What ever happened to him?

Which one are you referring to? As I recall there may have been more than one. If the one you are referring to is in California he has been dead for years.

[Heriberto]

There were two. I know that the copycat one was arrested, but I never knew what ever happened to the original. Wow.

[Cursiorandcursior]

Originally Posted by Heriberto

There were two. I know that the copycat one was arrested, but I never knew what ever happened to the original. Wow.

Trying to nail that down tight but I believe he is long dead at age 58 in 1992. Certainly the circumstantial evidence is overwhelming. He was about to be indicted when he dropped over dead with a heart attack. There is a cottage industry involved with that case and many would like to advance their own favorite theory of their suspects but in my view I regard the case as 99.9% solved. I can't find anything to rule him out and I have been looking everywhere.

[nohwheregirl]

Originally Posted by Cursiorandcursior

I can't find anything to rule him out and I have been looking everywhere.

This can't possibly be true. DNA tests on the stamps and envelopes as well as palm-prints ruled Arthur Leigh Allen out unless he had an accomplice working with him or he didn't send the letters (and he had to send at least some of them because he sent along evidence from the crime scene in the SF murder). I don't want to get into a big discussion over it because I agree that ALA would have been in prison if it were up to me, but the physical evidence testing in recent years provides some pretty reasonable doubt. It's an extremely frustrating case. God bless the people who aren't ready to just throw their hands up and forget about it.

[Heriberto]

^^^ Yeah.

[Cursiorandcursior]

Originally Posted by nohwheregirl

This can't possibly be true. DNA tests on the stamps and envelopes as well as palm-prints ruled Arthur Leigh Allen out unless he had an accomplice working with him or he didn't send the letters (and he had to send at least some of them because he sent along evidence from the crime scene in the SF murder). I don't want to get into a big discussion over it because I agree that ALA would have been in prison if it were up to me, but the physical evidence testing in recent years provides some pretty reasonable doubt. It's an extremely frustrating case. God bless the people who aren't ready to just throw their hands up and forget about it.

The DNA and fingerprints are worthless since there is no chain of custody. I really don't know why there are those who keep saying this. No one can claim they saw Zodiac place his fingerprints or DNA on any physical piece of evidence. There is no proven Zodiac DNA or fingerprints on file anywhere and never has been.

The only true indisputable evidence would the the audio tape that has been lost to Nancy Slover, the police operator. That could be compared with known Allen audio to determine if it was the same person. That's what the CIA does with purported audio tapes by bin Laden. Even the shoe print can't be definitively proven to have come from him although I think it is more likely than not. But the other so-called evidence is totally worthless as a means to identify Zodiac or to eliminate a suspect.

The only value such evidence would have is if someone could be matched to the DNA or fingerprints, they would have to explain what it was doing there, but it would in no way prove guilt.

The circumstantial evidence is overwhelming. It would be a slam-dunk case and in fact he was about to be indicted at the time he dropped over dead with a heart attack in 1992.

[Heriberto]

I've heard it that Arthur Leigh Allen was the Zodiac but some people say that he wasn't. Some evidence sort of points to him, but I don't know what to believe.

[TeresaB24]

Originally Posted by Cursiorandcursior

Which one are you referring to? As I recall there may have been more than one. If the one you are referring to is in California he has been dead for years.

How do you know that The Zodiac has died? At least the original one.

There has not been one suspect that has stood out 100% as being The Zodiac, there are suspects but however they can be ruled out one way or another.

Take Arthur Lee Allen, he was the prime suspect for years upon years, however when his DNA was compared to that on the envelopes he was proved not to be a match, neither did the handwriting comparisons made. That does not mean he was not The Zodiac.

Whomever The Zodiac was he did not quit killing when the killings in that area stopped, I just think he moved on to somewhere else and started killing all over again.

TB24

[Cursiorandcursior]

Originally Posted by TeresaB24

How do you know that The Zodiac has died? At least the original one.

There has not been one suspect that has stood out 100% as being The Zodiac, there are suspects but however they can be ruled out one way or another.

Take Arthur Lee Allen, he was the prime suspect for years upon years, however when his DNA was compared to that on the envelopes he was proved not to be a match, neither did the handwriting comparisons made. That does not mean he was not The Zodiac.

Whomever The Zodiac was he did not quit killing when the killings in that area stopped, I just think he moved on to somewhere else and started killing all over again.

TB24

It is possible he moved away from the original areas and there are other unsolved murders throughout the state. In fact there is a similar killing down near Riverside (south California) that has never been reported before; not even in Graysmith's book. Seems the 34 year old female murder victim was a skin diver in the area. Guess what Allen did as a hobby. Was he in the area at exactly the same time? Yes. Coincidence?

I'm personally convinced to a certainty that Allen was Zodiac. He would have been indicted had he not dropped over dead with a heart attack in 1992.

I keep hearing about this so-called exonerating evidence. There is none. None whatsoever. No one knows where the DNA and fingerprints came from or how they came to be placed there. What we have are DNA and fingerprints of unknown origin, the letters and ciphers, bootprint, and a missing tape recording.

At the Lake killing it was established by both the survivor (Hartnell) and the murder victim (Shepard) that Zodiac was 6 feet tall. The boot print was of an individual at least 220 pounds or more. The survivor Bryan Hartnell stated that Zodiac was from 230-250 pounds. How much did Allen weigh? 250 pounds. How tall was Allen? 6 feet tall. Needless to say the size of shoe matched that which Allen was known to have worn 10.5R. More coincidences. Was he in the area at the time? Yes. More coincidences.

How high do the coincidences have to be before they cease being coincidences? Can Allen be shown to be anywhere else during any of these known murders? No.

Are there other murders? Yes. In all probability, a good many more. Probably in excess of 50 would not be unlikely. 49 victims are listed in Graysmith's book as certain or suspected. (Only five are provable to a certainty) With the one victim uncovered within the past 48 hours, that brings it to an even 50. It remains unsolved and confirmed just yesterday with the local police jurisdiction.

It can never been proven to a certainty, but I believe the murders by Zodiac will be seen in criminal annals as one of the most prolific serial murderers in history, rivaling Ted Bundy, Gary Ridgway and other well known serial murderers.

Show me anything that would exonerate Allen because I would like to look elsewhere. I just don't see it and I've looked everywhere. What I do know from my professional working career with DNA is that the so-called evidence of someone else at the murder scenes is of no evidentiary value unless it cannot be shown how it came to be there. There is no chain of custody. There are also no Zodiac prints or DNA on file and never have been.

There is a way to eliminate Allen, however. At the time Zodiac phoned to Nancy Slover, the police operator, there was a tape of the conversation. Find it and compare it with known Allen voice recordings. The CIA does this to authenticate tapes from bin Laden. Then I will believe he is not Zodiac if they do not match.

FYI: Today I learned of two more similar murders yet unsolved dating back to this era. Additionally there are more being identified even today. All coming back with the same M.O. No sexual molestation of the female victims. All trademarks of Zodiac.

[Tighthead]

I know that the folks over at zodiackiller.com don't give much thought to the Graysmith book, or to ALA as a suspect.

Just to add to the confusion.

[TeresaB24]

Originally Posted by Tighthead

I know that the folks over at zodiackiller.com don't give much thought to the Graysmith book, or to ALA as a suspect.

Just to add to the confusion.

I was going to post about that site but did not have the time yesterday.

If you look at things a bit closer at ALA, while coming off strange I just do not think he would be able to pull off being The Zodiac. Even though forensics, and evidence collecting was not what is today. Killers will still leave some sort of evidence behind, ALA seems to me, would have screwed up and left something very tangible behind as evidence.


On the message boards on the zodiac killer website, there is a woman that claims she is being stalked by someone she also claims is The Zodiac. i am a bit skeptical of that, however on the boards there are several very viable suspects and some posters go into detail on why they think it is that person. One could spend hours reading about the suspects there.


TB24

[Cursiorandcursior]

Originally Posted by Tighthead

I know that the folks over at zodiackiller.com don't give much thought to the Graysmith book, or to ALA as a suspect.

Just to add to the confusion.

It is in the interest of Zodiac cultists to keep this case alive. One can nitpick a detail here and a detail there but the professional officers who worked on this case were convinced to a certainty that Allen was Zodiac. In my opinion the only questions to be answered are how high the body count is.

What I can say absolutely, positively, and without possible contradiction by the facts is that there is no chain of custody of DNA or fingerprint "evidence" at the crime scenes and there is no provable DNA or fingerprints or DNA of Zodiac existing. Hence, Allen can in no way, shape or form be eliminated as a suspect.