Walter "Curly" Green - Genealogy

[radar1979]

This case caught my eye early on. Just prior to writing this I sent an e-mail to one of the evening papers in Omaha to see if anything had come of the story. Josh Butler, the man who was tracing Curly's heirs, had listed the case as "closed" in a 1988 article prior to the airing of the UM episode.

What gets me most is that we have all the usual details needed for the start of a good "family tree" type search...provided that the facts are accurate. Given all that WE know...and that "they" must know even more...I am puzzled as to why this case has not been solved with so many clues and a plain track to follow.

1. Curly said he was born in Kendall Montana, Fergus County, just prior to 1900...I checked Kendall and it was a busy mining town at that time so that fits well.

2. Curly said he came to Nebraska from Denver, this was around 1914 or so and he was 16 at the time.

NOTE: WALTER Green should appear on both the 1900 and 1910 census records in either location at SOME point...and then in Omaha in 1920 and 1930.

3. Curly stated in writing that his birth Parents were Harry Albert Green of Englans and Ann Mauren of Latvia. Census records from the time should list their country of origin...they should even be included in the records from 1920 and 1930 as the people were asked where their parents were from. Curly may not have answered these questions...but I don't know, and the 1920 and 1930 census records had not been released in 1988.

4. Curly said that he had a Step-father in Denver in 1915 and that was his reason for leaving.

5. Curly served in ww1...though all Army service records since 1912 were destroyed by fire in 1973. Since he gave his parent's names and birth places on the 1938 birth certificate he may also have listed them on his enlistment papers.

I have traced ancestors and relatives with FAR less info than this, so, unless Curly was lying to EVERYONE, there must be a record somewhere.

Perhaps one of you out there with access to Ancestry.com or one of the other genealogy sites might check these names, dates, and places with their records...and then send the info along to Josh Butler in Ohio.

[radar1979]

Bump

[italia]

Originally Posted by radar1979

This case caught my eye early on. Just prior to writing this I sent an e-mail to one of the evening papers in Omaha to see if anything had come of the story. Josh Butler, the man who was tracing Curly's heirs, had listed the case as "closed" in a 1988 article prior to the airing of the UM episode.

What gets me most is that we have all the usual details needed for the start of a good "family tree" type search...provided that the facts are accurate. Given all that WE know...and that "they" must know even more...I am puzzled as to why this case has not been solved with so many clues and a plain track to follow.

1. Curly said he was born in Kendall Montana, Fergus County, just prior to 1900...I checked Kendall and it was a busy mining town at that time so that fits well.

2. Curly said he came to Nebraska from Denver, this was around 1914 or so and he was 16 at the time.

NOTE: WALTER Green should appear on both the 1900 and 1910 census records in either location at SOME point...and then in Omaha in 1920 and 1930.

3. Curly stated in writing that his birth Parents were Harry Albert Green of Englans and Ann Mauren of Latvia. Census records from the time should list their country of origin...they should even be included in the records from 1920 and 1930 as the people were asked where their parents were from. Curly may not have answered these questions...but I don't know, and the 1920 and 1930 census records had not been released in 1988.

4. Curly said that he had a Step-father in Denver in 1915 and that was his reason for leaving.

5. Curly served in ww1...though all Army service records since 1912 were destroyed by fire in 1973. Since he gave his parent's names and birth places on the 1938 birth certificate he may also have listed them on his enlistment papers.

I have traced ancestors and relatives with FAR less info than this, so, unless Curly was lying to EVERYONE, there must be a record somewhere.

Perhaps one of you out there with access to Ancestry.com or one of the other genealogy sites might check these names, dates, and places with their records...and then send the info along to Josh Butler in Ohio.

did you ever find more info on Walter Green... I know i'm like super late but i was on the site that reported no family found etc bogus!

[crochetbuff]

Originally Posted by italia

did you ever find more info on Walter Green... I know i'm like super late but i was on the site that reported no family found etc bogus!

I've tried to follow those leads listed in earlier post. I can come up with nothing definitive.

There are very few "Green" families in either Fergus County, or nearby Meagher County, MT. One Green family lives N.E. of Lewistown in Giltedge, MT in 1900, has a Robert W. Green that is b. in 1895, followed him out and he stayed in MT most of his life, his mother died first, so no stepdad.... Giltedge is a ghost town now.

Kendall was North of Lewistown, MT, near Hilger. Can't find what it is listed as on 1900 census. There is a large category of "misc. towns". Find only one other green family in Meagher county, Castle Mountain, S.W. of Lewistown on a Mountain. Names and ages don't match.

No Walter Green born in MT listed on WWI Draft Registrations on Ancestry.com.

Closest match was a Walter C. Green in Omaha, NE in 1920, age 20 born in NE, single, lodger, parents both listed as born in Indiana. Can't decipher occupation "helper ??? in ??? store". Can't for sure match him up with anyone on 1910 or 1930 census.

Usually I can take this much info. (if factual) and find something definitive, so I think the old geezer wasn't giving anyone the straight scoop.

[radar1979]

You have found largely what I was able to find from online searching...IE...very little other than the 1920 census listing. There do seem to be FAR too many dead-end leads with regards to Mr. Green's past. Josh Butler and I have both now arrived at basically the same conclusion, that "Curly" was an orphan from Colorado who came east and then visited Montana later in life. We both feel that following WWI Curly seems to have made himself a "new" identity in Kendall Montana, possibly drawing on the legend of Al Green and the famous shootout from 1920.

Unfortunately, Mr. Green failed to realize that there was no Kendall, Montana in 1895 when he says he was born. the town was not formed until 1898. The birth Certificate shown on UM was likely Curly's way of applying for an SS number.

All signs now point to Curly being a man with a slate that was wiped clean from the begining, that of an orphan who never knew his family.

[radar1979]

Unfortunately no, my leads in Denver proved to be more dead-ends, or at least ones that could neither be confirmed nor denied.

Nothing seems to jive in this case at all when the normal methods of research are applied, thus indicating an individual who likely never knew his own true family and was more than likely an orphan from the day he/she was born.

Both Josh Butler and I have arrived at this same conclusion. It sounds rather sad, but all signs point to Curly being a man who never knew his family what-so-ever and later on "invented" or "adopted" a past life of his own. It seems that Curly "adopted" the small town of Kendall, Montana as his birth place sometime after WWI. However, Curly apparently did not realize that Kendall did not even exist until 1898...3 years after the year he listed as his birth year on the 1938 Delayed Birth Cert. More than likely, Curly either invented or borrowed the data listed on the certificate so that he could obtain a Social Security number.

Why Kendall? Possibly the legend that grew out of the 1920 shootout with the man named Al Green. Turns out that this incident is more famous than the UM piece would lead you to believe.

None of the names listed on the 1938 delayed birth certificate appeared anywhere on either the 1880, 1900 or 1910 Census...no imigration listings or anything...and Curly himself does not even appear until 1920 in Omaha...and even then he was unable to give any data about his parents. So...if he did not know who they were in 1920...how was he to have any idea who they were 18 years later? Sadly, it appears likely that he DID NOT.

Now, you ask..."can this case still be solved"? Yes...but it will take something just shy of a miracle, something along the lines of an obscure newspaper article or a long-lost diary entry or perhaps a set of records from a Colorado orphanage that just happen to have survived for 114 years and have remained hidden.

[crochetbuff]

Originally Posted by radar1979

Unfortunately no, my leads in Denver proved to be more dead-ends, or at least ones that could neither be confirmed nor denied.

Nothing seems to jive in this case at all when the normal methods of research are applied, thus indicating an individual who likely never knew his own true family and was more than likely an orphan from the day he/she was born.

Both Josh Butler and I have arrived at this same conclusion. It sounds rather sad, but all signs point to Curly being a man who never knew his family what-so-ever and later on "invented" or "adopted" a past life of his own. It seems that Curly "adopted" the small town of Kendall, Montana as his birth place sometime after WWI. However, Curly apparently did not realize that Kendall did not even exist until 1898...3 years after the year he listed as his birth year on the 1938 Delayed Birth Cert. More than likely, Curly either invented or borrowed the data listed on the certificate so that he could obtain a Social Security number.

Why Kendall? Possibly the legend that grew out of the 1920 shootout with the man named Al Green. Turns out that this incident is more famous than the UM piece would lead you to believe.

None of the names listed on the 1938 delayed birth certificate appeared anywhere on either the 1880, 1900 or 1910 Census...no imigration listings or anything...and Curly himself does not even appear until 1920 in Omaha...and even then he was unable to give any data about his parents. So...if he did not know who they were in 1920...how was he to have any idea who they were 18 years later? Sadly, it appears likely that he DID NOT.

Now, you ask..."can this case still be solved"? Yes...but it will take something just shy of a miracle, something along the lines of an obscure newspaper article or a long-lost diary entry or perhaps a set of records from a Colorado orphanage that just happen to have survived for 114 years and have remained hidden.

Thanks for you replies!

I agree with your theory that he was either an orphan since birth or shortly thereafter. OR he did come from some family, but didn't want to share that with anyone. He could have been say "John Klickenfritz" from Denver and be on the census with his family up to a point (gave false information all along after that. ), but for some reason doesn't want anyone to know his real identity. Why? I don't know. In that case the mystery may have an even smaller chance of being solved.

[Sherinsan]

Is there a copy of the Delayed Birth Certificate available? Can someone send me a copy by email? They showed it on Unsolved Mysteries, so why is it not posted there or any other site? And the postcard from someone in Brooklyn, has anyone seen it? Does it have a name or return address? So many unanswered questions. By the way, did anyone ever locate the brother or information to validate that he was killed in a shootout as Curly Green stated? Additionally, does anyone have a photocopy of his handwritten signature that is available to be emailed? His last reported address? Thanks for your input.

[everybodylovesrs]

The reason it isn't posted is it is an old case, and let's face it, most people don't give a damn, especially if it doesn't affect them in some way.

But here are the screenshots from the video.

[cocytus]

IMHO, the easiet way for someone to find out information on Curley Green would have been to seek out his military records.
Unless they were destroyed in the 1973 National Archives fire, they would be the best source of information on Mr. Green's family and his place of origin.This segment has always been one of saddest to me. It's unfortunate that Mr. Green was unable to find a another companion and decided to live out his life alone.

When I saw this one again on Lifetime yesterday, I notice they deleted the friend that stopped by Green's house and asked him about the photos on his mantle. Sad story all the way around.

[Gelatinous Goo]

I finally saw this case for the first time today and have a quick possible update:

A wreath of flowers was sent to Curly's funeral with a card bearing the name "Mrs. Joseph Greener, Denver, Colorado".

That begs the obvious question: Perhaps Curly's surname was actually "Greener".

Anyhow, a quick search shows a Joseph Greener dying in Woodside, NY in March of 1969. Woodside is in Queens county. Brooklyn is in neighboring Kings county, where somebody used to send him postcards from. Joseph Greener was born 1/22/1887, just eight years before Curly.

Curly mentioned Denver as part of his past. I'm guessing that Joseph Greener's widow moved back to Denver from Brooklyn following the death of her husband.

Things we need to find:

-Obit/death certificate for Joesph Wheeler. These would (hopefully) list next of kin.

-Anyone with an ancestry.com membership should run checks on a Walter Greener in the World War One draft card scans (using the info we have from the birth certificate). These cards can provide us with an extra clue or two.

-Searches should also be run for Walter Green/Greener on that site, as well as Joseph.

Another interesting piece of info located:

A Josephine Greener died in Aurora, Colorado in 1982. She was born in 1901. There are only two women with the surname Greener listed as ever having died in Colorado. The eerie part is that Josephine's Social Security card was issued by Nebraska!

Edit:The year 1930 finds Josephine Greener living in Omaha with husband Charlie and daughter Marine (B. 1924), so I suppose that the Brooklyn connection to Josephine doesn't fit.

1930 finds Joseph Greener living in Brooklyn. Although there is no mention of a Josephine, there is a "Betty" with the same year of birth (1901) living with Joseph. A Robert Greener (B. 1899) is also listed as living with them. Betty was born 1/1/1901 and died in June 1972. No further information on Robert can be found.

The search for Josephine might prove more beneficial than starting with Joseph.

[Gelatinous Goo]

Curly's grave:

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg...494541&df=all&

No gravesite listings for Joseph or Josephine Greener could be found.

As the birth certificate shown was issued much later in life, I wonder how many of the dates/facts might be erroneous. For example, I did find a listing for the grave of an Albert H. Green in Denver, but he is shown as being born in 1848 as opposed to the 1855 listed on the birth certificate. He died in 1904, eight years before Curly showed up in Nebraska (and also giving enough time for Curly's mother to remarry). Finding Curly's mother might prove more difficult, as we don't have her married name.

[Sherinsan]

I still would like to find out whether anyone ever located the brother in any documentation, or information to validate that he was killed in a shootout, as Curly Green stated? Thanks.

[everybodylovesrs]

Originally Posted by Sherinsan

I still would like to find out whether anyone ever located the brother in any documentation, or information to validate that he was killed in a shootout, as Curly Green stated? Thanks.

None of us have, and Unsolved Mysteries couldn't either, so.

[Sherinsan]

Looking at various records, even if a trickle of the information is accurate, it appears there is human error in spelling of names and accuracy in the remembrance of dates of occurrence. For example, I looked at the original video with Robert Stack of Unsolved Mysteries and listened to Catheryn Rominger. That would be the freshest facts provided, albeit decades later. She stated she was 9 years old and he was 16 at the time she met Walter Green. That year would then be 1913, based on census records. Remember that date.
Census records of 1910 show Catheryn Rominger's dob 1904, adding 9 years later, she and Curly met in 1913 when he was 16. If Walter Curly Brown was born 16 years earlier, that would make his dob 1897. (1920 Census records reflect Catherine (alternative spelling) Rominger as 16 years old and dob of 1904 which validates her dob). Curly states on his delayed birth certificate he was born Mar 22, 1895 which does not match with Catheryn's version that he was 16 when she was 9. Walter Curly Green does not show up as a resident in the Rominger household in 1920.
Catheryn Rominger states Curly enlisted in the Army "in 1917, when the United States entered the First World War" (the war lasted from August 4, 1914..some say July.. and ended on November 11, 1918). So did he enter earlier, in 1914?--that would match up better to the data provided. The video shows him returning to Schuyler, Nebraska looking for Jessamyn (a/k/a Jessie/Jestine based on census records). That year would probably have been early 1919, by my estimates.

But, then again, was Curly really 16 years old when Catheryn met him or was Walter Green really his name?

I wish I had a copy of Josh Butler's complete file. There has to be more data to ferret out because it is closest to Curly Green's death.

--->I always say, "Trust but Verify"!