Very old unexplained death case... Anyone remember? - Sitcoms Online Message Boards

Todd Mueller · 10-30-2007, 03:05 PM

Today I remember this very old unexplained death case. I can't remember many of the details so I'm hoping one of you super sleuths will!

It was about a girl who died from a shotgun blast standing near her car. The death was ruled a suicide but the investigation showed she would have had great difficulty pulling the trigger with the gun aimed at her. I remember it being really weird and hard to believe it was ruled a suicide. I know it was among the very first UM shows.

So... does anyone remember? Not much to go on I know, so hopefully one of you can make a connection.

Thanks!

crystaldawn · 10-30-2007, 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Todd Mueller

Today I remember this very old unexplained death case. I can't remember many of the details so I'm hoping one of you super sleuths will!

It was about a girl who died from a shotgun blast standing near her car. The death was ruled a suicide but the investigation showed she would have had great difficulty pulling the trigger with the gun aimed at her. I remember it being really weird and hard to believe it was ruled a suicide. I know it was among the very first UM shows.

So... does anyone remember? Not much to go on I know, so hopefully one of you can make a connection.

Thanks!

Sounds like the Rae Ann Mossor one. She died by her car which was parked near her former boyfriend's house where she is reported to have said shortly before her death "what do I have to do to prove my love for you...kill myself". Her parents didn't buy it was a suicide as they claimed her arm wasn't long enough to pull the trigger.

I've seen this case many times and I have a hard time buying she was murdered (like the parents think). It just seems more plausible that given the circumstances that she either found a way to rig the shotgun to go off killing herself or that somehow the gun accidentally discharged killing her.

Todd Mueller · 10-30-2007, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crystaldawn

Sounds like the Rae Ann Mossor one. She died by her car which was parked near her former boyfriend's house where she is reported to have said shortly before her death "what do I have to do to prove my love for you...kill myself". Her parents didn't buy it was a suicide as they claimed her arm wasn't long enough to pull the trigger.

I've seen this case many times and I have a hard time buying she was murdered (like the parents think). It just seems more plausible that given the circumstances that she either found a way to rig the shotgun to go off killing herself or that somehow the gun accidentally discharged killing her.

BINGO! We have a winner!

That's it. Do you know if they ever showed that one on Lifetime? I know it's on your volumes but somehow I missed that one when I saw volume 3 the first time. Glad to have it, though. (My wife suddenly got hooked on UM so we have been watching them in HER order, not mine... That's going to change post haste!

)

I also agree that it was most likely not a suicide. If I remember right, it would have been physically impossible to intentionally pull the trigger.

crystaldawn · 10-30-2007, 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Todd Mueller

I also agree that it was most likely not a suicide. If I remember right, it would have been physically impossible to intentionally pull the trigger.

Well I actually tend to believe it was a suicide or accidental death rather than a murder. She probably could have rigged it to go off somehow (I have heard of someone who pulled the trigger of a shotgun with his toe in a suicide attempt) or it accidentally discharged. What UM leaves out is does the shotgun belong to Rae Ann? I would assume it does or they would have said so. If she was upset that her former boyfriend no longer wanted to date her and brings a shotgun to his house than I think the suicide theory holds even more weight.

Yes this segment did air on Lifetime pretty regularly.

LooksLikeCRicci · 10-30-2007, 09:44 PM

LOL! All I can remember from this case is her saying, "What do I have to do to prove my love to you?"

One of those timeless UM quotes, I guess.... I still cry foul play on this one. Sorry, CD... this is one of the few times we disagree.

:

Todd Mueller · 10-31-2007, 02:21 AM

Dang... I watched Lifetime so much I might be accussed of being a woman, but I never remember seeing that case.

Seriously, that one always bugged me so I wanted to see it on Lifetime but never did.

I have to go with CRicci on this one. I might be able to believe the accident scenario, but that is even more far fetched than the murder one. I need to re-watch this so I can refresh my memory, but it always bugged me that they made it seem like she did it when the evidence says otherwise.

[Note: Todd reserves the right to change his mind after re-viewing the segment. ]

crystaldawn · 10-31-2007, 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LooksLikeCRicci

Sorry, CD... this is one of the few times we disagree.

:

How dare you disagree with me Cricci!!! Lol, just kidding.

You know I will say that the first dozen times I watched this segment I probably leaned towards her not ending her own life. But then I thought "who in the world could have killed her and why?" What motive is there? The police didn't seem to doubt the boyfriend's comments and there may have even been witnesses around who heard her make that statement. Rae Ann did have a temper and did seem to be distraught at her boyfriend no longer wanting to see her and I'm assuming the shotgun she was killed with belonged to her or her family or UM would have mentioned it. Than I realized that sometimes UM goes out of their way to incinuate that something more sinister and bizarre happened when in reality most times its the most plausible answer that is the correct one. Coupled with those two things is what made me think that she wasn't murdered.

I am curious Todd to see if your opinion changes after viewing the segment again.

Todd Mueller · 02-02-2009, 01:41 PM

I fixed a run in my grandma's sweater this morning. And I'm replying to CD's post, which I forgot I never had way back when.

What do these two things have in common, you ask?

In both cases, I'm pulling it out an old thread.

[I amuse myself sometimes...]

OK, CD. Just watched this one again. You know what? SOMETHING IS REALLY WRONG WITH THIS CASE! Someone else pulled that trigger, no two ways about it.

#1. She couldn't reach it and give herself a chest wound at the same time. It was a physical impossibility.

#2. The gun was lying on the trunk. Not impossible, but unlikely based on the scene.

#3. If she used a "prop" to fire the gun, why was IT not found at the scene? She was wearing shoes (so toes are out, CD

). It may have been something else but it would have had to have been strong (like a big stick) so they should have found that.

#4. The odds of the gun going off accidentally are extremely remote. It shouldn't go off if banged or dropped to the ground (as shown in the test during the story). Guns don't just go off. That's why most people knowledgable about weapons never say "accidental shooting." The correct term is "negligant discharge." The difference is that you have to pull the trigger to make the gun go BOOM. That is no accident -- it couldn't happen because a person wasn't being careful and was being a d-bag, but it is not an '"accident". Careless, yes, but a trigger needs to be pulled to make the gun go off.

#5. The powder burns on her LEFT hand. Most likely from grabbing the muzzle or being close to it. Cops can't explain that one, but the other MEs could.

#6. Doesn't anyone think it is odd that the ex-boyfriend didn't go out to investigate? I'm sure the police looked at him, but it seems odd she gets into a fight with him then winds up dead outside his house (under strange circumstances) and there was NOTHING in the UM story about him. They mentioned him in the beginning but nothing later. I found that really odd.

Based on the above, I've come to the following two conclusions:

Conclusion 1: The cops showed up, thought they had a suicide, and said "Open and shut case." After further review, things don't add up and since they don't want to look like they have egg on their faces, they have been very reluctant to do more work and change the cause of death (even though it was well after the fact.

Conclusion 2: I feel this is another case of selective story telling and/or editing by UM. The viewer gets the sense there is a lot wrong with this case and the investigation, so where is the other side of the story. And again, why so little about the boyfriend? Is he not the obvious suspect? Like you said, CD: Whose gun was it??? Where there finger prints? There is a LOT to this story we just don't know about.

And finally, my theory: Rae Ann gets into an argument with someone (maybe the boyfriend?). She grabs the gun and threatens to shoot them or herself. They take the gun away from her. (Now here is where it gets weird for me.) Being angry, that person threatens to shoot her OR that person instinctively (but not purposefully) puts his/her finger on the trigger. Rae Ann says, "Give me the gun!" and pulls it with her left hand. That action causes the trigger to be pulled (unintentionally) and it goes off. The "shooter" panics (as it was not an intentional shooting), thinks to him/herself "How am I ever going to explain this?!?", wipes the gun clean, sets it on the trunk, and runs away.

I had forgotten so much about this case from when I first saw it on the original UM broadcast. But I remember it bugged me then and it still bugs me now.

Thoughts, anyone???

justins5256 · 02-02-2009, 02:00 PM

"I am in receipt of your reply"

yuppielawyer · 02-02-2009, 02:49 PM

Quote:

#5. The powder burns on her LEFT hand. Most likely from grabbing the muzzle or being close to it. Cops can't explain that one, but the other MEs could.

She could very easily have powder burns on her left hand from holding the barrel of the gun herself as she was pulling the trigger with the other hand. Frankly, I don't see how she'd be able to shoot herself without holding the gun with one hand while pulling the trigger with the other.

Todd Mueller · 02-02-2009, 02:50 PM

PRICELESS! Well done, sir...

Quote:

Originally Posted by justins5256

"I am in receipt of your reply"

TracyLynnS · 02-02-2009, 04:48 PM

Wish I could see this eppy.

Does it have any similarities to the Abigail Niebauer case (not on UM that I'm aware of) who was killed by her husband James? It's been on Cold Case Files a lot.

In the Neibauer case, the husband said that he was cleaning the shotgun and he'd even spread out all the materials to set the scene. When his wife came home, he wanted to show her how nice his freshly cleaned gun looked and somehow it went off and shot her in the chest.

Investigators recreated the murder scenario to prove her husband's guilt when they realized that the powder burns on Abigail's sweater cuffs could only have been made if she had been standing in the classic defensive position of forearms raised up to cover the chest and hands near the face. She was not holding and admiring the gun, as her husband said. Also, her entire family was adamant that she hated guns and wouldn't touch one.

BTW, the motive in that case was the wife's parent's inheritance, I think. James knew that Abigail intended to keep that inheritance money separate from their joint assets. The only way he could get it was if she was dead.

I'd like to see the burn marks/powder marks in the Mossor case. Was she really holding the barrel of the shotgun, aiming at herself and received the burn marks that way, or was she trying to defend herself from the blast?

If the burn marks were on her left hand and she had none on her right, maybe she used her left hand to steady the front of the barrel, and used her right hand to manipulate a stick or some other device to pull the trigger, (assuming suicide).

Also, if it was an accident in the manner described by TM in his final theory and another person was holding the gun, while they were arguing and she was pulling on the gun, I can see that exact thing happening.

I don't know anyone who handles a gun properly (except my family, who's been trained). Watch people on tv shows or in the movies, their fingers are always on the trigger whether they are facing a bad guy or walking around sniffing daisies. I think if people aren't trained in the proper handling of their weapons, their instinct is to have their finger on the trigger, like they've seen on tv their whole lives.

In real life, I've seen it several times when people are first being trained to use a weapon. They grab the gun and hold on to the trigger. And in the case of my stupid brother in law, aim and point it at 9 people in the living room, because that's just how gangsta he thinks he is. ugh. People do really stupid things with loaded guns.

crystaldawn · 02-02-2009, 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Todd Mueller

I fixed a run in my grandma's sweater this morning. And I'm replying to CD's post, which I forgot I never had way back when.

What do these two things have in common, you ask?

In both cases, I'm pulling it out an old thread.

[I amuse myself sometimes...]

Good one Todd....

Nah I still don't buy murder. You didn't mention what possible motive anyone would have. Granted we only have what UM told us to go on and assumptions and sometimes they leave things out that don't fit their possible scenario of murder. I'm guessing the gun belonged to Rae Ann or her relatives or they would have certainly brought that up. I'm also assuming that the boyfriend's story was corroborated, perhaps by people in his house or in the neighborhood or you would have thought UM would have mentioned that especially if they are trying to convince us of murder. So what are the facts as we know them? Rae Ann was upset at her boyfriend breaking up with her, she specificially says 'what do I have to do to prove my love for you, kill myself' and then coincidentally minutes later she's dead. What possible motive would the boyfriend have to kill her when he wanted no more to do with her? I don't know about the shotgun. People can be pretty creative when they want something bad enough and I think Rae Ann could have figured a way to discharge the gun. She could have been standing up against the back of the car and after the gun discharged it could have fallen on the trunk. Or someone could have heard the gunshot and ran out and saw her and placed the gun there before calling the police. It appeared by the UM segment that it was a fairly populated area where she died, why didn't anyone hear anything. If it was an altercation as you stated, people would have heard arguing or something. If Rae Ann had a shotgun pointed at her don't you think she would have yelled or screamed just as human nature would have you do? I can envision after having an argument with her boyfriend and being really enraged she pulled a shotgun she had in her car (again why would she carry a shotgun around with her, maybe she had contemplated suicide before) and deciding to end it all and get back at her ex by doing it near his home shot herself. I'm not saying there's no way in the world she was murdered but the evidence certainly does not convince me (as it did not convince the police) she was murdered and I can think of no motive and there was no evidence around of a random act of violence. On the other hand I can think of some reasons for Rae Ann wanting to end her own life. Her boyfriend had ended it and like her mother said Rae Ann had a temper. She could have decided to do something very rash in order to show him. Hey its happened before.

I hope that one day Rae Ann's relatives come across this board and can give us more answers. Since the death was ruled a suicide there is probably nothing online about it.

justins5256 · 02-02-2009, 08:51 PM

I have not seen this one in awhile, but I always thought this was a suicide. The fact is that we don't know exactly where or how she was standing when the shot was fired, so it makes theorizing about hand/gun/body positioning difficult. As others have pointed out, the boyfriend wasn't focused on so I'm guessing he must have been cleared as a suspect. That being said, who else would go out of their way to do her in? The time frame and close proximity of neighbors and potential witnesses works against the murder theory, imho. Also, she said she was going to kill herself! I mean, I realize there are some odd circumstances here, but that's life. There are a lot of solved cases that have loose ends. But let's step back and look at the big picture here. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck....

crystaldawn · 02-02-2009, 09:38 PM

Okay I just rewatched this one. One fact I had forgotten is that Rae Ann was found on the ground beside her ex's car while her car was across the street. That could point to the fact that she was trying to possibly get back at him. By looking at where the gun was found I could also see that this was possibly an accidental shooting. I don't believe the gun was ever tested (or UM didn't mention it anyway) but I think there's a chance Rae Ann was handling the shotgun and it accidentally discharged. Remember she had powder burns on her wrist.

10-30-2007, 03:05 PM	#1
Todd Mueller Member Senior Member Join Date: Feb 11, 2005 Posts: 1,626	Very old unexplained death case... Anyone remember? Today I remember this very old unexplained death case. I can't remember many of the details so I'm hoping one of you super sleuths will! It was about a girl who died from a shotgun blast standing near her car. The death was ruled a suicide but the investigation showed she would have had great difficulty pulling the trigger with the gun aimed at her. I remember it being really weird and hard to believe it was ruled a suicide. I know it was among the very first UM shows. So... does anyone remember? Not much to go on I know, so hopefully one of you can make a connection. Thanks!

10-30-2007, 09:44 PM	#5
LooksLikeCRicci Likes to live in a clean house Moderator Forum 4000 Club Member Join Date: Nov 27, 2005 Posts: 4,050	LOL! All I can remember from this case is her saying, "What do I have to do to prove my love to you?" One of those timeless UM quotes, I guess.... I still cry foul play on this one. Sorry, CD... this is one of the few times we disagree. :

10-31-2007, 02:21 AM	#6
Todd Mueller Member Senior Member Join Date: Feb 11, 2005 Posts: 1,626	Dang... I watched Lifetime so much I might be accussed of being a woman, but I never remember seeing that case. Seriously, that one always bugged me so I wanted to see it on Lifetime but never did. I have to go with CRicci on this one. I might be able to believe the accident scenario, but that is even more far fetched than the murder one. I need to re-watch this so I can refresh my memory, but it always bugged me that they made it seem like she did it when the evidence says otherwise. [Note: Todd reserves the right to change his mind after re-viewing the segment. ]

02-02-2009, 01:41 PM	#8
Todd Mueller Member Senior Member Join Date: Feb 11, 2005 Posts: 1,626	I fixed a run in my grandma's sweater this morning. And I'm replying to CD's post, which I forgot I never had way back when. What do these two things have in common, you ask? In both cases, I'm pulling it out an old thread. [I amuse myself sometimes...] OK, CD. Just watched this one again. You know what? SOMETHING IS REALLY WRONG WITH THIS CASE! Someone else pulled that trigger, no two ways about it. #1. She couldn't reach it and give herself a chest wound at the same time. It was a physical impossibility. #2. The gun was lying on the trunk. Not impossible, but unlikely based on the scene. #3. If she used a "prop" to fire the gun, why was IT not found at the scene? She was wearing shoes (so toes are out, CD ). It may have been something else but it would have had to have been strong (like a big stick) so they should have found that. #4. The odds of the gun going off accidentally are extremely remote. It shouldn't go off if banged or dropped to the ground (as shown in the test during the story). Guns don't just go off. That's why most people knowledgable about weapons never say "accidental shooting." The correct term is "negligant discharge." The difference is that you have to pull the trigger to make the gun go BOOM. That is no accident -- it couldn't happen because a person wasn't being careful and was being a d-bag, but it is not an '"accident". Careless, yes, but a trigger needs to be pulled to make the gun go off. #5. The powder burns on her LEFT hand. Most likely from grabbing the muzzle or being close to it. Cops can't explain that one, but the other MEs could. #6. Doesn't anyone think it is odd that the ex-boyfriend didn't go out to investigate? I'm sure the police looked at him, but it seems odd she gets into a fight with him then winds up dead outside his house (under strange circumstances) and there was NOTHING in the UM story about him. They mentioned him in the beginning but nothing later. I found that really odd. Based on the above, I've come to the following two conclusions: Conclusion 1: The cops showed up, thought they had a suicide, and said "Open and shut case." After further review, things don't add up and since they don't want to look like they have egg on their faces, they have been very reluctant to do more work and change the cause of death (even though it was well after the fact. Conclusion 2: I feel this is another case of selective story telling and/or editing by UM. The viewer gets the sense there is a lot wrong with this case and the investigation, so where is the other side of the story. And again, why so little about the boyfriend? Is he not the obvious suspect? Like you said, CD: Whose gun was it??? Where there finger prints? There is a LOT to this story we just don't know about. And finally, my theory: Rae Ann gets into an argument with someone (maybe the boyfriend?). She grabs the gun and threatens to shoot them or herself. They take the gun away from her. (Now here is where it gets weird for me.) Being angry, that person threatens to shoot her OR that person instinctively (but not purposefully) puts his/her finger on the trigger. Rae Ann says, "Give me the gun!" and pulls it with her left hand. That action causes the trigger to be pulled (unintentionally) and it goes off. The "shooter" panics (as it was not an intentional shooting), thinks to him/herself "How am I ever going to explain this?!?", wipes the gun clean, sets it on the trunk, and runs away. I had forgotten so much about this case from when I first saw it on the original UM broadcast. But I remember it bugged me then and it still bugs me now. Thoughts, anyone???

02-02-2009, 02:00 PM	#9
justins5256 Member Forum 3000 Club Member Join Date: Aug 08, 2002 Posts: 3,866	"I am in receipt of your reply"

02-02-2009, 04:48 PM	#12
TracyLynnS Don't Look Up Forum 3000 Club Member Join Date: Jan 07, 2009 Posts: 3,107	Wish I could see this eppy. Does it have any similarities to the Abigail Niebauer case (not on UM that I'm aware of) who was killed by her husband James? It's been on Cold Case Files a lot. In the Neibauer case, the husband said that he was cleaning the shotgun and he'd even spread out all the materials to set the scene. When his wife came home, he wanted to show her how nice his freshly cleaned gun looked and somehow it went off and shot her in the chest. Investigators recreated the murder scenario to prove her husband's guilt when they realized that the powder burns on Abigail's sweater cuffs could only have been made if she had been standing in the classic defensive position of forearms raised up to cover the chest and hands near the face. She was not holding and admiring the gun, as her husband said. Also, her entire family was adamant that she hated guns and wouldn't touch one. BTW, the motive in that case was the wife's parent's inheritance, I think. James knew that Abigail intended to keep that inheritance money separate from their joint assets. The only way he could get it was if she was dead. I'd like to see the burn marks/powder marks in the Mossor case. Was she really holding the barrel of the shotgun, aiming at herself and received the burn marks that way, or was she trying to defend herself from the blast? If the burn marks were on her left hand and she had none on her right, maybe she used her left hand to steady the front of the barrel, and used her right hand to manipulate a stick or some other device to pull the trigger, (assuming suicide). Also, if it was an accident in the manner described by TM in his final theory and another person was holding the gun, while they were arguing and she was pulling on the gun, I can see that exact thing happening. I don't know anyone who handles a gun properly (except my family, who's been trained). Watch people on tv shows or in the movies, their fingers are always on the trigger whether they are facing a bad guy or walking around sniffing daisies. I think if people aren't trained in the proper handling of their weapons, their instinct is to have their finger on the trigger, like they've seen on tv their whole lives. In real life, I've seen it several times when people are first being trained to use a weapon. They grab the gun and hold on to the trigger. And in the case of my stupid brother in law, aim and point it at 9 people in the living room, because that's just how gangsta he thinks he is. ugh. People do really stupid things with loaded guns.

02-02-2009, 08:51 PM	#14
justins5256 Member Forum 3000 Club Member Join Date: Aug 08, 2002 Posts: 3,866	I have not seen this one in awhile, but I always thought this was a suicide. The fact is that we don't know exactly where or how she was standing when the shot was fired, so it makes theorizing about hand/gun/body positioning difficult. As others have pointed out, the boyfriend wasn't focused on so I'm guessing he must have been cleared as a suspect. That being said, who else would go out of their way to do her in? The time frame and close proximity of neighbors and potential witnesses works against the murder theory, imho. Also, she said she was going to kill herself! I mean, I realize there are some odd circumstances here, but that's life. There are a lot of solved cases that have loose ends. But let's step back and look at the big picture here. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck....

02-02-2009, 09:38 PM	#15
crystaldawn Member Forum 4000 Club Member Join Date: Dec 17, 2002 Location: Illinois Posts: 4,261	Okay I just rewatched this one. One fact I had forgotten is that Rae Ann was found on the ground beside her ex's car while her car was across the street. That could point to the fact that she was trying to possibly get back at him. By looking at where the gun was found I could also see that this was possibly an accidental shooting. I don't believe the gun was ever tested (or UM didn't mention it anyway) but I think there's a chance Rae Ann was handling the shotgun and it accidentally discharged. Remember she had powder burns on her wrist.