Ladner Case vs. Ives & Henry Case - Sitcoms Online Message Boards

Thiussat · 05-07-2007, 04:17 AM

I have made a couple of "vs." posts lately because I feel certain cases are quite similar. However, I had never seen the Norman Ladner case until tonight and I must say that the first thing that popped into my mind was the Ives & Henry case. These two cases are not just similar, but eeringly similar. I am probably not the first to make this observation, and would like to hear fellow poster's opinions on this notion.

Take away the fact that Ives and Henry happened to be laid on train tracks after their death, and these two cases appear nearly identical. All 3 boys were right around 17 years old. Ives and Henry had a .22 rifle and were walking rural land in Arkansas. Ladner also had a .22 rifle as was walking rural land in Mississippi. Both cases were ruled accidents or suicides by authorities. In both cases the parents have persisted in their own investigations and have turned up links to organized drug smuggling, and in both cases the police appear to be somewhat involved in a cover-up (there is more evidence of this in the Ives and Henry case though). All three deaths appear to be a case of the kids being in the wrong place at the wrong time. The motive for murder in both cases appears to be the silence of a witness to high level drug smuggling.

I wonder if Ives' and Henry's parents have ever been in contact with Ladner's parents?

At any rate, a very interesting case and I am glad I got to see it before LRW takes the show off the air soon.

Regards.

mozartpc27 · 05-07-2007, 10:57 AM

I tink the "evidence" for a dug smuggling operation in the Ladner case is just that thing that his father found, which a retired officer who did not appear on camera said was similar to the sort of device that smugglers used to help guide planes to the ground. Pretty weak if you ask me - there was nothing found at the scene to suggest another party or parties were present.

Thiussat · 05-07-2007, 04:30 PM

Well, there is really not much evidence putting anyone else at the Ives and Henry scene either. Most of the evidence is based upon rumors about drug smuggling and the Mena drug ring. However, in the Ives and Henry case there were a few witnesses who claim they "heard" people talk about being at the scene. There are no such witnesses in the Ladner case based on the UM segment (but there were not witnesses in the Ives and Henry case based on UM either. All of the Mena stuff came out after the UM segment aired.)

The reason I am suspicious of the Ladner case is because the police did not even attempt to find the bullet that killed him. They based their entire conclusion on "how his body fell." This is pretty dubious to me. At the very least the bullet should have been found and matched to his rifle.

I wonder what caliber of rifle Ladner was carrying? The father said the bullet he and his wife found was "too long for his gun." I assume Ladner probably was carrying a .22 caliber rifle, and thus, the boy's rifle may have only been chambered for a .22 "short" or .22 "long" ammunition, and was not chambered for a .22 "long rifle." This is just speculation on my part, however.

I admit the family could be fabricating the story, but it seems quite creative for them to engender some story about a radio device, about finding a bullet beneath Norman's body that was bloody and had bone fragments on it, and about having a man tell the mother face to face to call off her investigation because she would never find out who killed her son. Of course, it would have given more credibility to their story if they would have shown the radio device or the bullet on camera or had the former DEA agent friend appear on the segment.

I am not saying this case is as suspicious as the Ives/Henry case, but I feel the police investigation was incomplete when they reached their conclusion.

Later.

peachysquirt21 · 05-07-2007, 06:17 PM

I believe the bullet they found they turned it over to LE & never got it back.

I think it's bit of a stretch that they would fabricate a story.

CanadianUMFan · 07-10-2007, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thiussat

Well, there is really not much evidence putting anyone else at the Ives and Henry scene either. Most of the evidence is based upon rumors about drug smuggling and the Mena drug ring. However, in the Ives and Henry case there were a few witnesses who claim they "heard" people talk about being at the scene. There are no such witnesses in the Ladner case based on the UM segment (but there were not witnesses in the Ives and Henry case based on UM either. All of the Mena stuff came out after the UM segment aired.)

The reason I am suspicious of the Ladner case is because the police did not even attempt to find the bullet that killed him. They based their entire conclusion on "how his body fell." This is pretty dubious to me. At the very least the bullet should have been found and matched to his rifle.

I wonder what caliber of rifle Ladner was carrying? The father said the bullet he and his wife found was "too long for his gun." I assume Ladner probably was carrying a .22 caliber rifle, and thus, the boy's rifle may have only been chambered for a .22 "short" or .22 "long" ammunition, and was not chambered for a .22 "long rifle." This is just speculation on my part, however.

I admit the family could be fabricating the story, but it seems quite creative for them to engender some story about a radio device, about finding a bullet beneath Norman's body that was bloody and had bone fragments on it, and about having a man tell the mother face to face to call off her investigation because she would never find out who killed her son. Of course, it would have given more credibility to their story if they would have shown the radio device or the bullet on camera or had the former DEA agent friend appear on the segment.

I am not saying this case is as suspicious as the Ives/Henry case, but I feel the police investigation was incomplete when they reached their conclusion.

Later.

I just saw this Ladner case today on the Mystery Channel here in Canada. I too thought about the "Boys on the Tracks" case after I watched this one and rumoured connections to drug smuggling. I do find it puzzling how the police did a "half-assed" job of investigating this Ladner case. I guess that there are no updates on this case?

hostedbyrobertstack · 07-10-2007, 05:48 PM

Both of these cases are probably the two that get at me the most. Something about these cases makes me feel really helpless. I know what it is like to be in certain situations and for these kids to be in a situation and end up being murdered awful to imagine. Looking at their pictures it could be anyone(I know that's the case with any mystery) but its because they were so close to my age and were doing things any teenager would be doing. It sucks that it is still unsolved, another one of those cases that should not have even gone unsolved. Especially after all the talk that the authorities were corrupt. The south seems like a different country sometimes(no offense).

CowboyStudTied · 04-17-2009, 02:42 PM

they can be related what about the guy with camo on? what is his part in this?

Blackout · 06-20-2009, 07:44 PM

arkansas and mississippi...two completely different area's

MegtheEgg86 · 06-20-2009, 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackout805

arkansas and mississippi...two completely different area's

How do you mean?

Blackout · 06-20-2009, 09:53 PM

just because someone was murdered in one state in the woods over drugs, doesn't mean that the person murdered in the 2nd state in the woods was related to the same thing

CowboyStudTied · 07-28-2009, 09:27 PM

they are very silmilar

justins5256 · 07-29-2009, 08:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CowboyStudTied

they are very silmilar

were they found hogtied with there boots on? i thought they were

TracyLynnS · 07-29-2009, 09:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by justins5256

were they found hogtied with there boots on? i thought they were

roflol!!!!

Zlatko · 07-29-2009, 12:38 PM

I'm surprised that no one has brought up the two boys who were killed in Oklahoma. It's been said that they were killed in the same fashion as Don, and Kevin. Both were lying motionless on a train track. I've been trying to find more details on the case, but to no avail.

MegtheEgg86 · 07-30-2009, 06:09 PM

Last September, I spent the entirety of my evenings for a week searching Federal Railroad Administration (FRA) accident records for both the Ives/Henry incident as well as the mysterious 1984 Oklahoma accident on the advice of my husband, who is a railroad employee.

The former was much easier to search for as I had an exact date, location, and knew the railroad involved--but I found nothing that even remotely described the Ives/Henry incident. There were a small number of reportable incidents in August 1987 involving the Union Pacific Railroad in Saline County (as well as the surrounding counties, which I also searched), including at least one report of an individual trespassing on railroad property, but I did not find anything about two people being run over by a UP train on 23 August 1987 in Bryant, Arkansas.

I remember feeling very uncomfortable the entire week because an accident of Ives/Henry magnitude would DEFINITELY be on file with the FRA, and not being able to find it unsettled me. It would have as well been on Union Pacific records, but I found nothing there when I searched the company's archive.

I also did not find anything detailing the 1984 Oklahoma incident. I can't recall if the record simply was not there or if I wasn't able to use the search engine because I didn't have an exact date or railroad for the incident, but I do remember that I saw no file detailing an accident fitting that description.

I don't understand why the Ives/Henry incident would not be on file with the FRA, if that's truly the case. One person walking down railroad tracks is considered a reportable incident to the FRA (and there are many of those in the archive), as are grade crossing accidents, derailments, spillages of any sort, personnel injuries, etc...and certainly people being run over by trains.

05-07-2007, 04:17 AM	#1
Thiussat Member Forum Regular Join Date: Mar 09, 2007 Posts: 601	Ladner Case vs. Ives & Henry Case I have made a couple of "vs." posts lately because I feel certain cases are quite similar. However, I had never seen the Norman Ladner case until tonight and I must say that the first thing that popped into my mind was the Ives & Henry case. These two cases are not just similar, but eeringly similar. I am probably not the first to make this observation, and would like to hear fellow poster's opinions on this notion. Take away the fact that Ives and Henry happened to be laid on train tracks after their death, and these two cases appear nearly identical. All 3 boys were right around 17 years old. Ives and Henry had a .22 rifle and were walking rural land in Arkansas. Ladner also had a .22 rifle as was walking rural land in Mississippi. Both cases were ruled accidents or suicides by authorities. In both cases the parents have persisted in their own investigations and have turned up links to organized drug smuggling, and in both cases the police appear to be somewhat involved in a cover-up (there is more evidence of this in the Ives and Henry case though). All three deaths appear to be a case of the kids being in the wrong place at the wrong time. The motive for murder in both cases appears to be the silence of a witness to high level drug smuggling. I wonder if Ives' and Henry's parents have ever been in contact with Ladner's parents? At any rate, a very interesting case and I am glad I got to see it before LRW takes the show off the air soon. Regards.

05-07-2007, 04:30 PM	#3
Thiussat Member Forum Regular Join Date: Mar 09, 2007 Posts: 601	Well, there is really not much evidence putting anyone else at the Ives and Henry scene either. Most of the evidence is based upon rumors about drug smuggling and the Mena drug ring. However, in the Ives and Henry case there were a few witnesses who claim they "heard" people talk about being at the scene. There are no such witnesses in the Ladner case based on the UM segment (but there were not witnesses in the Ives and Henry case based on UM either. All of the Mena stuff came out after the UM segment aired.) The reason I am suspicious of the Ladner case is because the police did not even attempt to find the bullet that killed him. They based their entire conclusion on "how his body fell." This is pretty dubious to me. At the very least the bullet should have been found and matched to his rifle. I wonder what caliber of rifle Ladner was carrying? The father said the bullet he and his wife found was "too long for his gun." I assume Ladner probably was carrying a .22 caliber rifle, and thus, the boy's rifle may have only been chambered for a .22 "short" or .22 "long" ammunition, and was not chambered for a .22 "long rifle." This is just speculation on my part, however. I admit the family could be fabricating the story, but it seems quite creative for them to engender some story about a radio device, about finding a bullet beneath Norman's body that was bloody and had bone fragments on it, and about having a man tell the mother face to face to call off her investigation because she would never find out who killed her son. Of course, it would have given more credibility to their story if they would have shown the radio device or the bullet on camera or had the former DEA agent friend appear on the segment. I am not saying this case is as suspicious as the Ives/Henry case, but I feel the police investigation was incomplete when they reached their conclusion. Later.
	Last edited by Thiussat; 05-07-2007 at 04:45 PM.

06-20-2009, 07:44 PM	#8
Blackout Sart Bimpson Senior Member Join Date: Jan 13, 2003 Location: where the sun rises Posts: 2,236	arkansas and mississippi...two completely different area's
	__________________ MOHRIOR

05-07-2007, 10:57 AM	#2
mozartpc27 Vigilante Logician Forum Regular Join Date: Mar 09, 2006 Location: Philadelphia Posts: 924	I tink the "evidence" for a dug smuggling operation in the Ladner case is just that thing that his father found, which a retired officer who did not appear on camera said was similar to the sort of device that smugglers used to help guide planes to the ground. Pretty weak if you ask me - there was nothing found at the scene to suggest another party or parties were present.

05-07-2007, 06:17 PM	#4
peachysquirt21 Member Frequent Poster Join Date: Jan 27, 2006 Location: Minnesota Posts: 462	I believe the bullet they found they turned it over to LE & never got it back. I think it's bit of a stretch that they would fabricate a story.

07-10-2007, 05:48 PM	#6
hostedbyrobertstack Member Frequent Poster Join Date: Feb 23, 2007 Location: OH Posts: 436	Both of these cases are probably the two that get at me the most. Something about these cases makes me feel really helpless. I know what it is like to be in certain situations and for these kids to be in a situation and end up being murdered awful to imagine. Looking at their pictures it could be anyone(I know that's the case with any mystery) but its because they were so close to my age and were doing things any teenager would be doing. It sucks that it is still unsolved, another one of those cases that should not have even gone unsolved. Especially after all the talk that the authorities were corrupt. The south seems like a different country sometimes(no offense).

04-17-2009, 02:42 PM	#7
CowboyStudTied Member Occasional Poster Join Date: Apr 06, 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 54	they can be related what about the guy with camo on? what is his part in this?

06-20-2009, 09:53 PM	#10
Blackout Sart Bimpson Senior Member Join Date: Jan 13, 2003 Location: where the sun rises Posts: 2,236	just because someone was murdered in one state in the woods over drugs, doesn't mean that the person murdered in the 2nd state in the woods was related to the same thing

07-28-2009, 09:27 PM	#11
CowboyStudTied Member Occasional Poster Join Date: Apr 06, 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 54	they are very silmilar

07-29-2009, 12:38 PM	#14
Zlatko Member Frequent Poster Join Date: Aug 04, 2008 Location: Nowhereland Posts: 367	I'm surprised that no one has brought up the two boys who were killed in Oklahoma. It's been said that they were killed in the same fashion as Don, and Kevin. Both were lying motionless on a train track. I've been trying to find more details on the case, but to no avail.

07-30-2009, 06:09 PM	#15
MegtheEgg86 Member Forum Veteran Join Date: Jun 19, 2008 Location: The Volunteer State Posts: 5,156	Last September, I spent the entirety of my evenings for a week searching Federal Railroad Administration (FRA) accident records for both the Ives/Henry incident as well as the mysterious 1984 Oklahoma accident on the advice of my husband, who is a railroad employee. The former was much easier to search for as I had an exact date, location, and knew the railroad involved--but I found nothing that even remotely described the Ives/Henry incident. There were a small number of reportable incidents in August 1987 involving the Union Pacific Railroad in Saline County (as well as the surrounding counties, which I also searched), including at least one report of an individual trespassing on railroad property, but I did not find anything about two people being run over by a UP train on 23 August 1987 in Bryant, Arkansas. I remember feeling very uncomfortable the entire week because an accident of Ives/Henry magnitude would DEFINITELY be on file with the FRA, and not being able to find it unsettled me. It would have as well been on Union Pacific records, but I found nothing there when I searched the company's archive. I also did not find anything detailing the 1984 Oklahoma incident. I can't recall if the record simply was not there or if I wasn't able to use the search engine because I didn't have an exact date or railroad for the incident, but I do remember that I saw no file detailing an accident fitting that description. I don't understand why the Ives/Henry incident would not be on file with the FRA, if that's truly the case. One person walking down railroad tracks is considered a reportable incident to the FRA (and there are many of those in the archive), as are grade crossing accidents, derailments, spillages of any sort, personnel injuries, etc...and certainly people being run over by trains.