Boys On Train Track - Sitcoms Online Message Boards

Thiussat · 03-31-2007, 07:36 PM

I finally saw this segment today when I looked at my TiVo and watched an episode from a couple days ago on LRW.

There isn't much to say about this one. I think the witnesses are credible, since there are four of them who have identical stories about a tarp being placed over the bodies. Also, the fact that the boys were nonresponsive to the train horn seems to imply they were already dead. Then factor in that the autopsy showed that they had been stabbed prior to the train hitting them. All this means you have a murder case.

The notion that the boys had been too stoned to wake up is malarky. I used to be quite the stoner in my youth and I have never seen anyone smoke so much that they couldn't wake up. Marijuana is not a drug that can be OD'ed on -- it's medically impossible. I saw a study that said one person would have to smoke FORTY pounds in order for it to be deadly. As many of you might know, it is impossible for one person to smoke that much. Is it possible the boys laid on the tracks intentionally? Sure. I don't find the notion THAT unlikely because in these rural areas, people do weird things to stay entertained. Two teenage boys, a bag of weed, and train tracks. I can see them getting high and sitting on them for some sort of thrill. In normal circumstances I would say this is what happened, but the autopsy simply shows that this scenario is impossible -- they were stabbed.

Now I will put forth my take on all of this:

The boys were spotlight hunting (this is very popular in the south, and many guys I knew growing up did this). I was never a hunter myself, but I do know that a .22 caliber would not be used on deer, so I assume they were hunting squirrel, racoon, or other small game. I think the hunting was sorta a teenage ruse to have an excuse to hit the woods late at night for some toking. This is wild speculation here, but I think it is POSSIBLE that the boys had some marijuana plants they were cultivating. This was rural Arkansas, keep in mind, and a lot of people in areas like this (I was raised in such an area) do grow their own. It is also possible they knew of a place where someone else was growing it, and they perhaps were stealing it, or had walked upon this other person "tending to" to his crop. I knew a guy in high school who was shot at while trying to steal a guy's crop deep in the woods. He actually came strolling home with a few pellets of bird shot in him. (Yeah I had some rowdy friends).

I don't think my speculation is all that far-fetched since we DO know the boys did smoke pot. Obviously they got it from somewhere, either from a dealer or someone growing it for personal use. In such a rural area, it lends to reason that maybe they were growing it or knew of someone who did. This is probably how they ended up murdered. I lean toward the idea they knew someone who grew it and may have walked upon the stash at the wrong time. Many pot cultivators do tend to their crops at night to avoid detection.

The lead investigator himself seems to think it was drug related. I also find the police incoorperation sorta weird, but I don't know if it qualifies as a cover-up or not. Unless the police were involved in the drug trade, I see no reason for a cover-up. The D.A. seemed to imply that they were indeed involved in such activity, so who really knows. I simply don't have enough info to make a judgement.

The lone stranger in camo seems odd too, especially since he shot at a cop very near to where the boys were found dead. Perhaps this guy is involved in some of the "shady" activity that was going on in the area. He may have had some involvement in drugs of some sort (which might explain him walking around in the area at night).

Basically, the only possible motive I see is drugs, probably marijuana. I wouldn't think it would be THAT hard to find a drug connection unless the cops are simply looking the other way. Pot growers and dealers in such rural areas are pretty much known by everyone.

Oh yeah, the fact that two other boys 200 miles away had been killed while laying on train tracks really gave me a chill up my spine. This happened like 3 years earlier. I find this astonishing and almost impossible to chalk up as a coincidence. I had forgotten about this coincidence until I had already written all of the above. If there is a connection between the two cases, it seems very likely that the drug motive would be tossed out the window. It could be just an odd coincidence, but I doubt it. If it is not a coincidence, this leads to the "serial killer" hypothesis.

DarkDante · 03-31-2007, 07:59 PM

I've never bought into theory of the lone drug dealer or perhaps the boys trying to steal some drugs off a dealer which resulted in their deaths. If they were the only two connected with this case that died, then maybe I could believe it but a lot more people who were connected to this case died under equally mysterious circumstances, in my view in the year after the boys were killed for it just to be a case of two boys encountering or stealing some pot off a drug dealer.

It goes much higher than that...there is some strong evidence that the D.A. Richard Garrett and his partner Dan Harmon may have been responsible for the boys deaths although they were probably not the ones who actually murdered them.

baton_man · 03-31-2007, 10:02 PM

I just wonder why the teen carrying the gun did not defend himself.

hostedbyrobertstack · 04-01-2007, 01:36 AM

yea i always wonder why he didn't defend himself as well, which leads me to believe there were many people at the tracks that night, probably w/ weapons(i.e. police officers), as that one lady in that video said. I just got the book on this case from the library last week and started reading it, it's a very interesting case, one of those cases that makes me want to become a detective.

DarkDante · 04-01-2007, 03:25 AM

From what I read neither boy was killed at the tracks...thats just where they laid the bodies out. Apparently they were overpowered in the parking lot of the Ranchette Grocery and these individuals got the jump on them and overpowered them before they were able to fight back.

wiseguy182 · 04-01-2007, 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thiussat

Is it possible the boys laid on the tracks intentionally? Sure. I don't find the notion THAT unlikely because in these rural areas, people do weird things to stay entertained. Two teenage boys, a bag of weed, and train tracks. I can see them getting high and sitting on them for some sort of thrill. In normal circumstances I would say this is what happened, but the autopsy simply shows that this scenario is impossible -- they were stabbed.

It's possible, but I highly doubt it. The train conducter was blowing his whistle, and while I don't recall how many decibles it was, it was LOUD. The whistle didn't get so much as a flinch from either boy. In addition, someone on the segment said that one boy was dead by the time the train got there, and the other one was at least unconcious.

boco357 · 04-01-2007, 10:00 AM

I still believe this had to do with the Mena drug ring.
They found a "drop site" time before and went back to search for more.
Though this time someone was waiting for them.

You can see that many associated with information on the case have been killed:
Keith Coney-had info on the case, and died in a mysterious motorcylce accident while being chased by a car

Keith McCaskle-McKaskle has information on the Ives/Henry deaths. He was stabbed to death 113 times in November 1988. He had told his family someone was out to kill him and told them "good bye".

Gregory Collins-Greg had information on the Ives/Henry deaths. He died from a gunshot blast to the face in January 1989. Declared a suicide

Jeff Rhodes-He had information on the deaths of Ives, Henry & McKaskle. His burned body was found in a trash dump in April 1989. He died of a gunshot wound to the head and there was some body mutilation, specifically that his hands and feet had been partially sawn off, leading to the speculation that he was tortured prior to being killed. The body was then burned.

Richard Winters-Winters were a suspect in the deaths of Ives & Henry, and had offered to cooperate. He was killed by a shotgun blast to the face during a "robbery" in July 1989, which was subsequently proven to be a setup.

Jordan Kettleson-Kettleson had information on the Ives & Henry deaths. He was found shot to death in the front seat of his pickup in June 1990

And for the wonderful examiner Fahmy Malak:
James Milam was decapitated. The state Medical examiner, Fahmy Malak, initially ruled death due to natural causes, claiming that the victim's small dog had eaten the head, which was later recovered from a trash bin several blocks away.

In 1998, there was a Grand Jury trial, but the jury was frustrated as the weren't allowed to make the ruling they wanted cause of the prosecutor Dan Harmon and Richard Garrett.

I highly recommend Boys on the Tracks by Mara Leveritt.

Thiussat · 04-01-2007, 11:43 AM

Quote:

I've never bought into theory of the lone drug dealer or perhaps the boys trying to steal some drugs off a dealer which resulted in their deaths. If they were the only two connected with this case that died, then maybe I could believe it but a lot more people who were connected to this case died under equally mysterious circumstances, in my view in the year after the boys were killed for it just to be a case of two boys encountering or stealing some pot off a drug dealer.

It goes much higher than that...there is some strong evidence that the D.A. Richard Garrett and his partner Dan Harmon may have been responsible for the boys deaths although they were probably not the ones who actually murdered them.

DarkDante,

Can you elaborate on this? This seems very interesting and it appears you have a lot more knowledge about the case than what the UM segment showed. Is this D.A. the same attorney who was in the segment or is it a different guy? Thanks.

Thiussat · 04-01-2007, 11:46 AM

Quote:

I still believe this had to do with the Mena drug ring.
They found a "drop site" time before and went back to search for more.
Though this time someone was waiting for them.

This seems plausible and matches with my hypothesis about the boys trying to steal a stash. By the way, what is the "Mena" drug ring? Who is "Mena?"

My big question, though, is does anyone have an expanation for the deaths of the other two boys in Oklahoma a few years prior? They also were found laying on train tracks.

Thiussat · 04-01-2007, 11:54 AM

Quote:

From what I read neither boy was killed at the tracks...thats just where they laid the bodies out. Apparently they were overpowered in the parking lot of the Ranchette Grocery and these individuals got the jump on them and overpowered them before they were able to fight back.

Dante,

You obviously have read more than I know about the case. Based on the UM segment, it didn't mention them being at a grocery store. If they went spotlighting in the woods with a gun, how did they end up in a grocery store parking lot?

boco357 · 04-01-2007, 12:53 PM

Info about Mena.
http://www.ratical.org/ratville/JFK/crimesOfMena.html

Thiussat · 04-01-2007, 02:42 PM

boco,

It may very well be true that drugs were a big problem in Arkansas during that time, but this article seems to talk about the big fish. I don't think the big fish had any reason to kill two teenage boys. I think that if this was connected to Mena somehow, that it was some lower level people who committed this murder. They probably did it because the boys may have stolen some of their shipments. That's the best motive I can come up with. I just don't think that someone who was in cahoots with the CIA, and that two U.S. presidents knew about, would waste his time with this small time stuff.

I still want to know if anyone has any info that connects the Oklahoma train track deaths to this one.

DarkDante · 04-01-2007, 03:13 PM

I can't answer specifically about the Oklahoma train deaths connection to this case except that I put very little stock in it because its a theory advanced by Richard Garrett who I do not find very credible.

Garrett (who is the DA in the UM segment) has/had a partner by the name of Dan Harmon who many believe is responsible for the death of Ives and Henry and it is by no coincidence that when the case was re-opened in 1988, these two individuals jumped on it.

If you read "The Boys On The Tracks" or watch the accompanying video on the case put together by Linda Ives, it casts light on the fact that none of the leads Harmon and Garrett came up with amounted to anything (from the vagrant shooting at the cop to the Oklahoma incident) and that people who did contact these prosecutors with honorable intentions of solving this crime ended up dead.

Its also suspicious that Harmon and Garrett years later were dirtied by accustations of being involved in cover ups involving drugs. Although both men were later cleared I still believe that at least Harmon is responsible for the death of Ives and Henry and it is related to his involvement in the Mena drug ring

Thiussat · 04-01-2007, 04:01 PM

Dante,

So the prosecutor is dirty. My question is, however, why would he want to kill these kids?

Also, what evidence is there that these two boys were at a grocery store?

DarkDante · 04-01-2007, 04:23 PM

^ Because allegedly Dan Harmon was on the tracks that night partcipating in a drug drop along with several other state and local officials. Ives & Henry happened upon this drug drop either innocently or because they were looking to score the drugs for themselves. When the authorities spotted them and perhaps because Ives & Henry could've identified some of these people - they had to be disposed of.

There were at least two eyewitnesses who witnessed two officers beating the crap out of two boys matching the description of Ives & Henry at the Ranchette Grocery the night of the "The Train Deaths". After the attack one of the witnesses obseved the boys being loaded into the back of a squad car and being driven off towards the railroad tracks.

03-31-2007, 07:36 PM	#1
Thiussat Member Forum Regular Join Date: Mar 09, 2007 Posts: 601	Boys On Train Track I finally saw this segment today when I looked at my TiVo and watched an episode from a couple days ago on LRW. There isn't much to say about this one. I think the witnesses are credible, since there are four of them who have identical stories about a tarp being placed over the bodies. Also, the fact that the boys were nonresponsive to the train horn seems to imply they were already dead. Then factor in that the autopsy showed that they had been stabbed prior to the train hitting them. All this means you have a murder case. The notion that the boys had been too stoned to wake up is malarky. I used to be quite the stoner in my youth and I have never seen anyone smoke so much that they couldn't wake up. Marijuana is not a drug that can be OD'ed on -- it's medically impossible. I saw a study that said one person would have to smoke FORTY pounds in order for it to be deadly. As many of you might know, it is impossible for one person to smoke that much. Is it possible the boys laid on the tracks intentionally? Sure. I don't find the notion THAT unlikely because in these rural areas, people do weird things to stay entertained. Two teenage boys, a bag of weed, and train tracks. I can see them getting high and sitting on them for some sort of thrill. In normal circumstances I would say this is what happened, but the autopsy simply shows that this scenario is impossible -- they were stabbed. Now I will put forth my take on all of this: The boys were spotlight hunting (this is very popular in the south, and many guys I knew growing up did this). I was never a hunter myself, but I do know that a .22 caliber would not be used on deer, so I assume they were hunting squirrel, racoon, or other small game. I think the hunting was sorta a teenage ruse to have an excuse to hit the woods late at night for some toking. This is wild speculation here, but I think it is POSSIBLE that the boys had some marijuana plants they were cultivating. This was rural Arkansas, keep in mind, and a lot of people in areas like this (I was raised in such an area) do grow their own. It is also possible they knew of a place where someone else was growing it, and they perhaps were stealing it, or had walked upon this other person "tending to" to his crop. I knew a guy in high school who was shot at while trying to steal a guy's crop deep in the woods. He actually came strolling home with a few pellets of bird shot in him. (Yeah I had some rowdy friends). I don't think my speculation is all that far-fetched since we DO know the boys did smoke pot. Obviously they got it from somewhere, either from a dealer or someone growing it for personal use. In such a rural area, it lends to reason that maybe they were growing it or knew of someone who did. This is probably how they ended up murdered. I lean toward the idea they knew someone who grew it and may have walked upon the stash at the wrong time. Many pot cultivators do tend to their crops at night to avoid detection. The lead investigator himself seems to think it was drug related. I also find the police incoorperation sorta weird, but I don't know if it qualifies as a cover-up or not. Unless the police were involved in the drug trade, I see no reason for a cover-up. The D.A. seemed to imply that they were indeed involved in such activity, so who really knows. I simply don't have enough info to make a judgement. The lone stranger in camo seems odd too, especially since he shot at a cop very near to where the boys were found dead. Perhaps this guy is involved in some of the "shady" activity that was going on in the area. He may have had some involvement in drugs of some sort (which might explain him walking around in the area at night). Basically, the only possible motive I see is drugs, probably marijuana. I wouldn't think it would be THAT hard to find a drug connection unless the cops are simply looking the other way. Pot growers and dealers in such rural areas are pretty much known by everyone. Oh yeah, the fact that two other boys 200 miles away had been killed while laying on train tracks really gave me a chill up my spine. This happened like 3 years earlier. I find this astonishing and almost impossible to chalk up as a coincidence. I had forgotten about this coincidence until I had already written all of the above. If there is a connection between the two cases, it seems very likely that the drug motive would be tossed out the window. It could be just an odd coincidence, but I doubt it. If it is not a coincidence, this leads to the "serial killer" hypothesis.
	Last edited by Thiussat; 04-25-2007 at 02:21 AM.

04-01-2007, 10:00 AM	#7
boco357 Not Muhammad Ali Frequent Poster Join Date: Jul 28, 2005 Posts: 109	I still believe this had to do with the Mena drug ring. They found a "drop site" time before and went back to search for more. Though this time someone was waiting for them. You can see that many associated with information on the case have been killed: Keith Coney-had info on the case, and died in a mysterious motorcylce accident while being chased by a car Keith McCaskle-McKaskle has information on the Ives/Henry deaths. He was stabbed to death 113 times in November 1988. He had told his family someone was out to kill him and told them "good bye". Gregory Collins-Greg had information on the Ives/Henry deaths. He died from a gunshot blast to the face in January 1989. Declared a suicide Jeff Rhodes-He had information on the deaths of Ives, Henry & McKaskle. His burned body was found in a trash dump in April 1989. He died of a gunshot wound to the head and there was some body mutilation, specifically that his hands and feet had been partially sawn off, leading to the speculation that he was tortured prior to being killed. The body was then burned. Richard Winters-Winters were a suspect in the deaths of Ives & Henry, and had offered to cooperate. He was killed by a shotgun blast to the face during a "robbery" in July 1989, which was subsequently proven to be a setup. Jordan Kettleson-Kettleson had information on the Ives & Henry deaths. He was found shot to death in the front seat of his pickup in June 1990 And for the wonderful examiner Fahmy Malak: James Milam was decapitated. The state Medical examiner, Fahmy Malak, initially ruled death due to natural causes, claiming that the victim's small dog had eaten the head, which was later recovered from a trash bin several blocks away. In 1998, there was a Grand Jury trial, but the jury was frustrated as the weren't allowed to make the ruling they wanted cause of the prosecutor Dan Harmon and Richard Garrett. I highly recommend Boys on the Tracks by Mara Leveritt.
	__________________ Are you an enemy of the fat? www.fatty357.com

03-31-2007, 07:59 PM	#2
DarkDante Member Senior Member Join Date: Jul 27, 2002 Posts: 1,569	I've never bought into theory of the lone drug dealer or perhaps the boys trying to steal some drugs off a dealer which resulted in their deaths. If they were the only two connected with this case that died, then maybe I could believe it but a lot more people who were connected to this case died under equally mysterious circumstances, in my view in the year after the boys were killed for it just to be a case of two boys encountering or stealing some pot off a drug dealer. It goes much higher than that...there is some strong evidence that the D.A. Richard Garrett and his partner Dan Harmon may have been responsible for the boys deaths although they were probably not the ones who actually murdered them.

03-31-2007, 10:02 PM	#3
baton_man Member Occasional Poster Join Date: Oct 27, 2006 Location: maryland Posts: 68	I just wonder why the teen carrying the gun did not defend himself.

04-01-2007, 01:36 AM	#4
hostedbyrobertstack Member Frequent Poster Join Date: Feb 23, 2007 Location: OH Posts: 436	yea i always wonder why he didn't defend himself as well, which leads me to believe there were many people at the tracks that night, probably w/ weapons(i.e. police officers), as that one lady in that video said. I just got the book on this case from the library last week and started reading it, it's a very interesting case, one of those cases that makes me want to become a detective.

04-01-2007, 03:25 AM	#5
DarkDante Member Senior Member Join Date: Jul 27, 2002 Posts: 1,569	From what I read neither boy was killed at the tracks...thats just where they laid the bodies out. Apparently they were overpowered in the parking lot of the Ranchette Grocery and these individuals got the jump on them and overpowered them before they were able to fight back.

04-01-2007, 12:53 PM	#11
boco357 Not Muhammad Ali Frequent Poster Join Date: Jul 28, 2005 Posts: 109	Info about Mena. http://www.ratical.org/ratville/JFK/crimesOfMena.html

04-01-2007, 02:42 PM	#12
Thiussat Member Forum Regular Join Date: Mar 09, 2007 Posts: 601	boco, It may very well be true that drugs were a big problem in Arkansas during that time, but this article seems to talk about the big fish. I don't think the big fish had any reason to kill two teenage boys. I think that if this was connected to Mena somehow, that it was some lower level people who committed this murder. They probably did it because the boys may have stolen some of their shipments. That's the best motive I can come up with. I just don't think that someone who was in cahoots with the CIA, and that two U.S. presidents knew about, would waste his time with this small time stuff. I still want to know if anyone has any info that connects the Oklahoma train track deaths to this one.

04-01-2007, 03:13 PM	#13
DarkDante Member Senior Member Join Date: Jul 27, 2002 Posts: 1,569	I can't answer specifically about the Oklahoma train deaths connection to this case except that I put very little stock in it because its a theory advanced by Richard Garrett who I do not find very credible. Garrett (who is the DA in the UM segment) has/had a partner by the name of Dan Harmon who many believe is responsible for the death of Ives and Henry and it is by no coincidence that when the case was re-opened in 1988, these two individuals jumped on it. If you read "The Boys On The Tracks" or watch the accompanying video on the case put together by Linda Ives, it casts light on the fact that none of the leads Harmon and Garrett came up with amounted to anything (from the vagrant shooting at the cop to the Oklahoma incident) and that people who did contact these prosecutors with honorable intentions of solving this crime ended up dead. Its also suspicious that Harmon and Garrett years later were dirtied by accustations of being involved in cover ups involving drugs. Although both men were later cleared I still believe that at least Harmon is responsible for the death of Ives and Henry and it is related to his involvement in the Mena drug ring

04-01-2007, 04:01 PM	#14
Thiussat Member Forum Regular Join Date: Mar 09, 2007 Posts: 601	Dante, So the prosecutor is dirty. My question is, however, why would he want to kill these kids? Also, what evidence is there that these two boys were at a grocery store?

04-01-2007, 04:23 PM	#15
DarkDante Member Senior Member Join Date: Jul 27, 2002 Posts: 1,569	^ Because allegedly Dan Harmon was on the tracks that night partcipating in a drug drop along with several other state and local officials. Ives & Henry happened upon this drug drop either innocently or because they were looking to score the drugs for themselves. When the authorities spotted them and perhaps because Ives & Henry could've identified some of these people - they had to be disposed of. There were at least two eyewitnesses who witnessed two officers beating the crap out of two boys matching the description of Ives & Henry at the Ranchette Grocery the night of the "The Train Deaths". After the attack one of the witnesses obseved the boys being loaded into the back of a squad car and being driven off towards the railroad tracks.