Dakotas Double Death - Sitcoms Online Message Boards

Birdman275 · 03-23-2007, 06:15 AM

Has anybody wondered about the Dakotas Double Death on Bizzare Murders DVD set Disc 4? The one where the 3 teens crash the car on a frozen ditch, 2 get out and leave the one cousin inside. There is no sign of the 2 cousins for 3 months till the spring thaw and there found 75 feet from the crash scene. Was this case ever solved, or any leads?

Thiussat · 03-23-2007, 10:43 AM

This is one episode I have always wanted to see but have not had the chance yet. Maybe I should break down and buy the bizarre murders DVD.

I have not heard of any updates to the case.

mozartpc27 · 03-23-2007, 12:03 PM

I've watched the case a couple of times, and to me it is one of those ones that is initially mysterious, but, the more you think about it, the more it becomes clear that the obvious explanation is 99% sure to be the correct one.

In the case, they make a big deal of two tings: 1) the area was thoroughly searched the day after the car crash, and yet no obvious sign that the two had fallen through the ice was found, and 2) the two bodies, when found, were in different states of decomposition. I think both of these things, however, are answerable to the most likely explanation: they both indeed fell through the ice that night, and drowned.

First, I'm not sure why the police chief interviewed during the case was so darn sure that there was "now way" those bodies were there during the three months between the accident and the spring thaw. I'm sure they weren't able to search under the ice, so once they fell in, they weren't likley to be found until the ice melted. I'm sure his claim rests on the notion that there was no obvious place where the ice had cracked wide enough for two pretty big people to have fallen in, but I think that the reason for that is twofold: I don't think the whole need be as dramatically obvious or as big as the police chief was thinking. What seems likely to me is that Arshambo and his wife got out of the car and decided to flee the scene immediately, for fear of being arrested (they were both quite intoxicated evidently). So, after getting out of the car, there first move naturally would have been to get out of the ditch, which would have meant they would have head to one of the "shorelines." My guess is that the ice was "weakest" along the margins of the ditch, and they fell through probably only a few feet from dry land. And yet, the place where they fell could have easily refrozen by morning (it was several more hours before the area was searched). Actually, from having been on frozen rivers, etc., a few times in my life, I think it is entirely possible that there was simply a "gap" in the ice coverage that extended a foot or two from the dry land out to where the ice coverage began. This would be a weak area for the ice where it could have easily given way under the weight of two people, and yet, being so close to the "shore line," it likely would have begun to freeze right back over enough so that it would have only appeared to someone looking at it that the gap between the "shore" and the ice coverage was a foot or two, not big enough for people to fall through.

At any rate, they both ended up dying of exposure, which is exactly what I would expect to find in "fell under the ice" case --- there is normally a pocket of air between a layer of ice and water in a frozen lake, river, etc., so if you can remain afloat, you can breathe. The problem is, you have to find your way out fast, because you only live about 15 minutes in water that is below freezing, and since people who fall through ice almost immediately go into hypothermal shock, moving is hard. Evidently, neither one of them ever found their way out, and so they both died of exposure.

As for the various states of decomposition, my guess would be that Arshambo got a little further along than his wife in terms of moving from the point where they fell in in a vain search for a way out. Unfortunately for him, it was in the wrong direction. She probably remained very close to where they initially fell in, but was unable to get out, a spot which I am guess was closer to the edge of the ditch. This edge was probably more susceptible to brief periods of thawing and re-freezing during slight temperature changes for the rest of the winter, so the water where she was eventually found was a little "warmer," mostly because it was exposed to direct sunlight a little more frequently. Arshambo made it to a place nearer the middle of the ditch that didn't thaw at all until the spring, which meant the water temperature stayed consistently below 32 degrees Farenheit before he was found, keeping him better preserved.

Birdman275 · 03-23-2007, 03:29 PM

How does one 1 explain the chunk of Rubys hair that was found on the roadside? It didnt stay on the up on the roadside for 3 months. I dont think they drowned that night at all. Something far more sinster happened. Another bothering thought is that the uncle knew they were drinking yet let them drive around that night. So much for showing responisbliyt on his part!

mozartpc27 · 03-23-2007, 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Birdman275

How does one 1 explain the chunk of Rubys hair that was found on the roadside? It didnt stay on the up on the roadside for 3 months.

Once her body was exposed by the spring thaw, a tuft of her, naturally loose because her body was decomposing so rapidly, blew off her head and managed to make its way to the roadside. That's just as likely as it falling off her head as someone came months after the crash to dump her rapidly rotting corpse. Why would anyone hold on to a body long enough for it to get into that condition? Did this person preserve one corpse and leave the other one out in the yard until finally deciding to dump them both?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Birdman275

I dont think they drowned that night at all.

Well, you're right there: they didn't drown.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Birdman275

Something far more sinster happened.

I just don't think the evidence bears that out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Birdman275

Another bothering thought is that the uncle knew they were drinking yet let them drive around that night. So much for showing responisbliyt on his part!

I agree here totally. Very strange that he would offer to let the baby stay with him, but send the drunk peopleoff on on their way!

Thiussat · 03-23-2007, 06:18 PM

As I said, I have never seen the segment, so my knowledge is limited. This is the one segment I really want to see.

I did some reading on the case and saw where a second medical examiner gave his opinion on the different states of decomposition. He thinks there was no difference -- that is, the first medical examiner was simply mistaken. He thinks the first guy was fooled because of the effects the water and ice would have on the bodies, especially if one thawed out earlier than the other.

Like Mozart said, since alcohol was involved, it explains the crash and explains why they fled. They probably just fell through the ice in a drunken stupor.

Birdman275 · 03-23-2007, 06:45 PM

At least somebody agrees on the uncle having very poor judgement. Also the fact is the drinking age in America not 21 and these people were still in highschool? Y would somebody leave there cousin behind in a car? Also how bout those keys ARnold had in his pocket? Would they have not have turned rusty after 3 months in water? Even the police could not id what those keys were to. THis is one intersintg segment!

Gangreen · 03-23-2007, 08:08 PM

Its common survival knowledge. If you are in the snow and disaster strikes, you dont all split up. One person stays in place just in case help comes around.

Birdman275 · 03-24-2007, 08:39 AM

Okay. What if the ice had broken up and the car sunk? Arnold and Ruby be in a lot more trouble than a simple DUI. It makes sense for a person to walk off the ice and onto shore. Ruby and Arnold were found downstream 75 feet. The shore was only feet away.

ddelta · 03-29-2007, 11:36 AM

I'm not gonna guess on what happened to the two because I really don't have a clue. BUT i did find it incredible strange that the girl was stuck with her cousin in the car somehow was pulled out (or got out on her own) and disappeared and never went to her cousin who was screaming to calm her and say she was getting help or anything. She just DISAPPEARED? I found that to be the stangest aspect of the entire case.

ForeverPluto · 03-29-2007, 04:36 PM

The one thing that sticks for me regarding this eppie was how they went off the road in the first place. Is it possible someone was following them, maybe that only Arnold could see that either ran them off the road or caused Arnold to go off the road. If you also remember, the cousin and lone survivor said something to the effect of Arnold speeding and then the next they knew, they went in the ditch. I know Arnold was drunk and th roads were icy but it's been my feeling everytime I see this particular eppie that someone was following them...

asmitty · 03-30-2007, 01:48 PM

Well, I've looked a lot into this case being that it took place about an hour from my home. I find it very interesting for sure. Now, first on to the fact that the uncle let them drive drunk. When he let them drive off they were on the Reservation as far as I know. Now, I don't know what the laws are on the Reservation but I do know that they do have Sovereignty so that they don't have to follow the same laws in regards to drinking and what not that are applicable elsewhere. So, it MAY NOT have been illegal for them to have been drinking that night or for them to be driving, I don't know either way. I know the sheriff mentioned the DWI law during the segment but that refers strictly to the fact that the accident happened just off the edge of the reservation. So, the accident itself is applicable to South Dakota laws.

Mozartpc27 talked about the possibility of them falling through unnoticed. The problem with his ideas is that they are based on frozen lakes and rivers and not on a large ditch. For example, he blames the fact that Arnold was in a different state of decomposition because Arnold made if farther under the ice than Ruby, well, the problem with that is that the ditch wouldn't have been deep enough or big enough for him to move around under the ice. His ideas about how they fell through are also based on the idea of a river or lake and won't compute with a ditch the size of the one where this took place. It is a large ditch but not that big. What I mean is that the ditch was very wide but the water under the ice would have been maybe 2 feet deep, 3 feet if it was really full. I just can buy that two people could fall through and get trapped with only that much space under the ice. I've seen that ditch in the winter time and it just would have been any deeper than that. Was there foul play involved? I just can't say. I have heard that a friend of Arnold's claims to have seen him during the three months that he was missing but I don't know how true that is. Someone here posed the idea they were being followed. Well, there is some anti-Native American sentiment around here and that could be a possibility. Why they would leave Ruby's cousin behind, well, maybe they didn't want to mess with getting her out of the car. She said that when Ruby got out that Arnold was already gone, and Ruby got out on her own then the door slammed shut.

Anyway, just wanted to throw those things out there. Looking forward to the rest of the dicussion on this case.

Birdman275 · 03-30-2007, 03:44 PM

Regarding the DWI. They may have been on a reservation but drinking and driving is still not very smart. The uncle needs to give his head a shake on that one. Another theory that I have is maybe Arnold and Ruby didnt want to be parents and they pulled this accident off on purpose. Then maybe Ruby didn't want no part of it so he drowned her and commited suicude himself months later. Arnold did look like big guy.

bryndis · 01-04-2009, 03:21 PM

Problems with this case:
1. Parent's tolerance of these teenagers drinking out ALL night while they have a YOUNG baby?? ("Oh yeah just come back in the morning")

2. Letting them drive while you know they've been out drinking all night.

3. Isn't it a known fact that once you got off the reservation, teenage pregnancy rates (i've heard) and graduation of high school is more likely to happen?

Sad, North dakota..

asmitty · 01-04-2009, 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bryndis

Problems with this case:
1. Parent's tolerance of these teenagers drinking out ALL night while they have a YOUNG baby?? ("Oh yeah just come back in the morning")

2. Letting them drive while you know they've been out drinking all night.

3. Isn't it a known fact that once you got off the reservation, teenage pregnancy rates (i've heard) and graduation of high school is more likely to happen?

Sad, North dakota..

Um, South Dakota actually.

03-23-2007, 06:15 AM	#1
Birdman275 Member Occasional Poster Join Date: Mar 19, 2007 Location: Vancouver Canada Posts: 19	Dakotas Double Death Has anybody wondered about the Dakotas Double Death on Bizzare Murders DVD set Disc 4? The one where the 3 teens crash the car on a frozen ditch, 2 get out and leave the one cousin inside. There is no sign of the 2 cousins for 3 months till the spring thaw and there found 75 feet from the crash scene. Was this case ever solved, or any leads?

03-23-2007, 12:03 PM	#3
mozartpc27 Vigilante Logician Forum Regular Join Date: Mar 09, 2006 Location: Philadelphia Posts: 924	I've watched the case a couple of times, and to me it is one of those ones that is initially mysterious, but, the more you think about it, the more it becomes clear that the obvious explanation is 99% sure to be the correct one. In the case, they make a big deal of two tings: 1) the area was thoroughly searched the day after the car crash, and yet no obvious sign that the two had fallen through the ice was found, and 2) the two bodies, when found, were in different states of decomposition. I think both of these things, however, are answerable to the most likely explanation: they both indeed fell through the ice that night, and drowned. First, I'm not sure why the police chief interviewed during the case was so darn sure that there was "now way" those bodies were there during the three months between the accident and the spring thaw. I'm sure they weren't able to search under the ice, so once they fell in, they weren't likley to be found until the ice melted. I'm sure his claim rests on the notion that there was no obvious place where the ice had cracked wide enough for two pretty big people to have fallen in, but I think that the reason for that is twofold: I don't think the whole need be as dramatically obvious or as big as the police chief was thinking. What seems likely to me is that Arshambo and his wife got out of the car and decided to flee the scene immediately, for fear of being arrested (they were both quite intoxicated evidently). So, after getting out of the car, there first move naturally would have been to get out of the ditch, which would have meant they would have head to one of the "shorelines." My guess is that the ice was "weakest" along the margins of the ditch, and they fell through probably only a few feet from dry land. And yet, the place where they fell could have easily refrozen by morning (it was several more hours before the area was searched). Actually, from having been on frozen rivers, etc., a few times in my life, I think it is entirely possible that there was simply a "gap" in the ice coverage that extended a foot or two from the dry land out to where the ice coverage began. This would be a weak area for the ice where it could have easily given way under the weight of two people, and yet, being so close to the "shore line," it likely would have begun to freeze right back over enough so that it would have only appeared to someone looking at it that the gap between the "shore" and the ice coverage was a foot or two, not big enough for people to fall through. At any rate, they both ended up dying of exposure, which is exactly what I would expect to find in "fell under the ice" case --- there is normally a pocket of air between a layer of ice and water in a frozen lake, river, etc., so if you can remain afloat, you can breathe. The problem is, you have to find your way out fast, because you only live about 15 minutes in water that is below freezing, and since people who fall through ice almost immediately go into hypothermal shock, moving is hard. Evidently, neither one of them ever found their way out, and so they both died of exposure. As for the various states of decomposition, my guess would be that Arshambo got a little further along than his wife in terms of moving from the point where they fell in in a vain search for a way out. Unfortunately for him, it was in the wrong direction. She probably remained very close to where they initially fell in, but was unable to get out, a spot which I am guess was closer to the edge of the ditch. This edge was probably more susceptible to brief periods of thawing and re-freezing during slight temperature changes for the rest of the winter, so the water where she was eventually found was a little "warmer," mostly because it was exposed to direct sunlight a little more frequently. Arshambo made it to a place nearer the middle of the ditch that didn't thaw at all until the spring, which meant the water temperature stayed consistently below 32 degrees Farenheit before he was found, keeping him better preserved.
	Last edited by mozartpc27; 03-23-2007 at 03:56 PM.

03-23-2007, 10:43 AM	#2
Thiussat Member Forum Regular Join Date: Mar 09, 2007 Posts: 601	This is one episode I have always wanted to see but have not had the chance yet. Maybe I should break down and buy the bizarre murders DVD. I have not heard of any updates to the case.

03-23-2007, 03:29 PM	#4
Birdman275 Member Occasional Poster Join Date: Mar 19, 2007 Location: Vancouver Canada Posts: 19	How does one 1 explain the chunk of Rubys hair that was found on the roadside? It didnt stay on the up on the roadside for 3 months. I dont think they drowned that night at all. Something far more sinster happened. Another bothering thought is that the uncle knew they were drinking yet let them drive around that night. So much for showing responisbliyt on his part!

03-23-2007, 06:18 PM	#6
Thiussat Member Forum Regular Join Date: Mar 09, 2007 Posts: 601	As I said, I have never seen the segment, so my knowledge is limited. This is the one segment I really want to see. I did some reading on the case and saw where a second medical examiner gave his opinion on the different states of decomposition. He thinks there was no difference -- that is, the first medical examiner was simply mistaken. He thinks the first guy was fooled because of the effects the water and ice would have on the bodies, especially if one thawed out earlier than the other. Like Mozart said, since alcohol was involved, it explains the crash and explains why they fled. They probably just fell through the ice in a drunken stupor.

03-23-2007, 06:45 PM	#7
Birdman275 Member Occasional Poster Join Date: Mar 19, 2007 Location: Vancouver Canada Posts: 19	At least somebody agrees on the uncle having very poor judgement. Also the fact is the drinking age in America not 21 and these people were still in highschool? Y would somebody leave there cousin behind in a car? Also how bout those keys ARnold had in his pocket? Would they have not have turned rusty after 3 months in water? Even the police could not id what those keys were to. THis is one intersintg segment!

03-23-2007, 08:08 PM	#8
Gangreen Member Occasional Poster Join Date: Sep 09, 2005 Posts: 65	Its common survival knowledge. If you are in the snow and disaster strikes, you dont all split up. One person stays in place just in case help comes around.

03-24-2007, 08:39 AM	#9
Birdman275 Member Occasional Poster Join Date: Mar 19, 2007 Location: Vancouver Canada Posts: 19	Okay. What if the ice had broken up and the car sunk? Arnold and Ruby be in a lot more trouble than a simple DUI. It makes sense for a person to walk off the ice and onto shore. Ruby and Arnold were found downstream 75 feet. The shore was only feet away.

03-29-2007, 11:36 AM	#10
ddelta Member Frequent Poster Join Date: Nov 07, 2003 Posts: 218	I'm not gonna guess on what happened to the two because I really don't have a clue. BUT i did find it incredible strange that the girl was stuck with her cousin in the car somehow was pulled out (or got out on her own) and disappeared and never went to her cousin who was screaming to calm her and say she was getting help or anything. She just DISAPPEARED? I found that to be the stangest aspect of the entire case.

03-29-2007, 04:36 PM	#11
ForeverPluto Member Occasional Poster Join Date: Sep 22, 2006 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 71	The one thing that sticks for me regarding this eppie was how they went off the road in the first place. Is it possible someone was following them, maybe that only Arnold could see that either ran them off the road or caused Arnold to go off the road. If you also remember, the cousin and lone survivor said something to the effect of Arnold speeding and then the next they knew, they went in the ditch. I know Arnold was drunk and th roads were icy but it's been my feeling everytime I see this particular eppie that someone was following them...

03-30-2007, 01:48 PM	#12
asmitty Member Forum Regular Join Date: Feb 01, 2007 Location: South Dakota Posts: 523	Well, I've looked a lot into this case being that it took place about an hour from my home. I find it very interesting for sure. Now, first on to the fact that the uncle let them drive drunk. When he let them drive off they were on the Reservation as far as I know. Now, I don't know what the laws are on the Reservation but I do know that they do have Sovereignty so that they don't have to follow the same laws in regards to drinking and what not that are applicable elsewhere. So, it MAY NOT have been illegal for them to have been drinking that night or for them to be driving, I don't know either way. I know the sheriff mentioned the DWI law during the segment but that refers strictly to the fact that the accident happened just off the edge of the reservation. So, the accident itself is applicable to South Dakota laws. Mozartpc27 talked about the possibility of them falling through unnoticed. The problem with his ideas is that they are based on frozen lakes and rivers and not on a large ditch. For example, he blames the fact that Arnold was in a different state of decomposition because Arnold made if farther under the ice than Ruby, well, the problem with that is that the ditch wouldn't have been deep enough or big enough for him to move around under the ice. His ideas about how they fell through are also based on the idea of a river or lake and won't compute with a ditch the size of the one where this took place. It is a large ditch but not that big. What I mean is that the ditch was very wide but the water under the ice would have been maybe 2 feet deep, 3 feet if it was really full. I just can buy that two people could fall through and get trapped with only that much space under the ice. I've seen that ditch in the winter time and it just would have been any deeper than that. Was there foul play involved? I just can't say. I have heard that a friend of Arnold's claims to have seen him during the three months that he was missing but I don't know how true that is. Someone here posed the idea they were being followed. Well, there is some anti-Native American sentiment around here and that could be a possibility. Why they would leave Ruby's cousin behind, well, maybe they didn't want to mess with getting her out of the car. She said that when Ruby got out that Arnold was already gone, and Ruby got out on her own then the door slammed shut. Anyway, just wanted to throw those things out there. Looking forward to the rest of the dicussion on this case.

03-30-2007, 03:44 PM	#13
Birdman275 Member Occasional Poster Join Date: Mar 19, 2007 Location: Vancouver Canada Posts: 19	Regarding the DWI. They may have been on a reservation but drinking and driving is still not very smart. The uncle needs to give his head a shake on that one. Another theory that I have is maybe Arnold and Ruby didnt want to be parents and they pulled this accident off on purpose. Then maybe Ruby didn't want no part of it so he drowned her and commited suicude himself months later. Arnold did look like big guy.

01-04-2009, 03:21 PM	#14
bryndis eeek Occasional Poster Join Date: Dec 22, 2008 Location: two states kind of Posts: 76	Problems with this case: 1. Parent's tolerance of these teenagers drinking out ALL night while they have a YOUNG baby?? ("Oh yeah just come back in the morning") 2. Letting them drive while you know they've been out drinking all night. 3. Isn't it a known fact that once you got off the reservation, teenage pregnancy rates (i've heard) and graduation of high school is more likely to happen? Sad, North dakota..