Zodiac and Unibomber ............. - Sitcoms Online Message Boards

Beavervalleygirl · 03-09-2007, 06:52 PM

............does anyone think they are the same person ?

Thiussat · 03-09-2007, 07:34 PM

UM did an entire segment on this, as you probably know. Some things are certain:

Based on the composites of Zodiac, Ted K. and the Zodiac were both around the same age. Both of them were in the same town in California at the time when the murders happened (I think Ted was there because he was teaching at Berkeley). The Zodiac used ciphers in his letters and Ted K was known to be a brilliant mathematician (I think he had a PhD from Harvard and was highly regarded by his colleagues. I think he even had a specialty in cryptology, which is very interesting). Also, one of the undecoded ciphers is now known to have contained the exact number of letters in Ted's name. However, this is much like the "Bible code", with enough digging, anyone can make mathematical connections with anything. I think it was Michael Shermer of Skeptic magazine who proved that he can code any novel or book to make cryptic predictions. So I don't put much stock into the cipher coincidence.

As for the facts against it: Ted has never admitted to it, and this hurts the notion because he has nothing to lose by admitting it now. The methods of murder were different. Also, I am sure that a handwriting and grammar analyst can probably show many differences in Ted's writings and the Zodiac's (Ted did write a book). Ted also seemed motivated by political reasons -- he killed only his colleagues, mostly professors, who he disagreed with, and in some cases, had a personal history with. The Zodiac seemed fixated on killing young lovers randomly in parks.

Much is made of the fact that the murder styles were different, and this is the main fact the skeptics use. However, I say once a psycho always a psycho. The skeptics like to say that the Zodiac was an "up close" killer and Ted was a "shy" killer. However, I disagree. Wearing a mask or hood and killing someone with a GUN, is not that up close. For example, it isn't like Bundy or Ramirez, where they often raped and killed their victims slowly. Using a gun is not that "courageous" or daring.

I think the coincidences are intriguing, but the liklihood is not that great. What are the chances? Sheer probability is against the idea.

After Ted K. was convicted, his psychological study was published online by the shrinks who examined him after his capture. I read it all, and it was very interesting. He had a fetish for wanting a sex change. The guy was definitely troubled and it would not surprise me if he was the Zodiac.

Now I have a question for anyone who cares to answer. The only witness who got a close look at the Zodiac, the cop in the car, claimed that he saw the Zodiac walk up into the yard and towards the house of a very prominent person. He said he cannot release this guy's name for fear of a lawsuit. This guy has denied being the Zodiac, but I was wondering if anyone knew who this guy was? It sounds interesting.

Awsi Dooger · 03-09-2007, 10:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thiussat

Now I have a question for anyone who cares to answer. The only witness who got a close look at the Zodiac, the cop in the car, claimed that he saw the Zodiac walk up into the yard and towards the house of a very prominent person. He said he cannot release this guy's name for fear of a lawsuit. This guy has denied being the Zodiac, but I was wondering if anyone knew who this guy was? It sounds interesting.

I've seen the name on the web before but it was removed from the source and I can't remember it. The guy is very prominent in San Francisco, now in his 80s, and has threatened lawsuits if he's listed as a Zodiac suspect. He's now typically listed as Mr. X.

Actually I don't think it was the cop who initiated that guy as a Zodiac suspect. A Zodiac researcher named Mike Rodelli had a very interesting theory, that since Zodiac liked to communicate with the press he might have sent a letter to the editor under his own name. He was on the East Coast but someone who believed in that theory pursued Rodelli's idea and came up with one letter to the editor with similarities to Zodiac's style and themes. It was written by the prominent San Franciscan.

Rodelli pursued the angle and came up with many other aspects that he believed tied the guy to Zodiac. He still hasn't given up. If you do a Google search for Mike Rodelli you'll find his website and many of the theories. He eventually went to authorities and believe it or not that eventually led to a face-to-face meeting with his suspect. He thinks the guy killed cabbie Paul Stine, went back to his home, changed quickly then went back outside under the ruse of walking his dog. Very interesting but it seems like a stretch to me. The timeline doesn't appear to allow it. But the prominent businessman was supposedly identified by a police officer as the man walking his dog that night. He claims he doesn't remember that night and may have been out of the country.

Thiussat · 03-09-2007, 10:39 PM

Thanks for the clarification, Awsi. I knew I may have had the details a bit wrong, but I remember seeing this issue discussed on one of the Zodiac specials I saw on TV once.

Didn't a cop see a man who he thinks was the Zodiac? It seems like he stopped the man right after the shooting and the man said "He went that way." The cop now thinks the guy was purposely misleading him. It seems they have never had any luck in finding this witness, so it has led them to think it was definitely the Zodiac himself. Am I on track here? Is this the same person who was walking the dog? I need to do some more research on this, I have forgotten a lot.

Later.

Awsi Dooger · 03-09-2007, 11:13 PM

You've got it right, Thiussat. Cops arrived within minutes and it's believed a patrol car came upon Zodiac. He walked away slowly and couldn't have gotten far. There's dispute whether they talked to him, or merely looked at him and dismissed him because the initial suspect description somehow was wrong and indicated a black assailant.

There was a segment on ABC PrimeTime Live in maybe 2002 that found the cop and he went back to the site where he believes he encountered Zodiac. I've got to split so I don't have time to look up the officer's name, but I think it was something like Paul Foulke. You could go to Zodiackiller.com for the specifics, especially the old archived message board, the first of the three. The second officer in that car died very young, within months of the Zodiac incident, but I've never learned the details of his death.

Thiussat · 03-09-2007, 11:43 PM

Ok, I don't want to start a whole new thread on the Zodiac, but I am going to change the subject here a little, but keep it on him.

I assume many of you have read his letters. I just got finished reading a few on zodiackiller.com and I find it curious. What I mean is that he obviously is a fairly intelligent individual, but he did misspell quite a few words in one letter I saw. He also made other grammatical mistakes, like leaving out apostrophes and commas.

Was this done on purpose? Was he simply in a hurry? Was he simply mathematically inclined, yet not grammatically inclined? Interesting.

SiberianKiss · 03-10-2007, 06:25 AM

Allen misspelled words the same way as Zodiac

Thiussat · 03-10-2007, 07:58 PM

Does anyone here know the real name of Mr. X? The guy Mike Rodelli thinks is guilty? Rodelli refuses to release his name publicly, but it seems hard for anyone to take him seriously unless they know WHO in the world he is talking about.

I came across one website that revealed his name, but after further research, I think this website has it wrong. I don't think the guy they listed is Rodelli's Mr. X.

If anyone knows, please send it to me privately (if you don't want to post it here).

Thanks

Awsi Dooger · 03-10-2007, 09:14 PM

I saw the name several years ago on the web when that zodiackiller.com message board first became well known. The name you probably found is definitely wrong. About a week ago when I read Rodelli's new stuff I tried to find the name and the one listed on some websites, normally in the comment section, is not the name I saw years ago.

Mike Rodelli posts on the zodiackiller.com message board. His user name is fairly obvious, mike r, or something like that. I doubt he would give the name to someone he doesn't know, but it might be worth a shot if you convinced him you merely wanted it for your own curiosity.

justins5256 · 03-11-2007, 03:50 PM

Can't answer your question, but I recently finished a great book titled "The Cases That Haunt Us" by John Douglas and Mark Olshaker, two retired FBI profilers. It has a chapter devoted to creating a psychological profile of the Zodiac and is a VERY interesting read. Dare I say there is NO WAY Zodiac and the Unabomber were one in the same.

Thiussat · 03-11-2007, 04:14 PM

I just find it odd that Rodelli wont release the name. Like someone on the Zodiac message board told him, "If you were to post a benign article or a wesbite with Mr. X's name in it, no one could prove you were implicating Mr. X."

There are many ways he could release the name without "releasing it."

He claims he is worried about lawsuits, but what about the other 500 people that researchers have implicated? I don't see them suing.

SiberianKiss · 03-12-2007, 01:10 AM

I wonder if Darlene Ferrin would've had some important info. Poor girl

If Mike Mageau wasn't such a sissy (he screamed out after the first round of bullets so Zodiac came back to shoot them some more) she may have lived.

LooksLikeCRicci · 03-12-2007, 04:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thiussat

After Ted K. was convicted, his psychological study was published online by the shrinks who examined him after his capture. I read it all, and it was very interesting. He had a fetish for wanting a sex change. The guy was definitely troubled and it would not surprise me if he was the Zodiac.

Whaaaaat? Knowing that the Unabomber made BIG news over here in Montana, I'm stunned that I never heard that little tidbit of information. Very interesting.

While I don't think that the Unabomber and Zodiac are one and the same, I DO think the correlations are interesting. I never looked at it from the "Bible Code" perspective that Thiussat pointed out, and that was actually my main argument for debunking the "Bible Code" in my own mind. I'm surprised that I didn't think to apply this logic to the Unabomber/Zodiac connection earlier...

I still DO think it's interesting that the Zodiac named "Deer Lodge, Montana." I've mentioned this before, but have any of you ever BEEN to Deer Lodge? There's nothing there.... except the prison. And a historical ranch. Granted, it's not exactly a secret, but it's not the most conspicious town in Montana, either.

Thiussat · 03-12-2007, 06:09 AM

I am not convinced that Zodiac and Ted K. are one in the same. I read an article earlier on one of the Zodiac sites discussing how there is a lot of misinformation and fallacies about this case floating around. One of the fallacies listed was the fact that the Zodiac told his victims he was from Deer Lodge, MT. This author actually quoted the police report, that was done after the witness interview, and the witness "wasn't sure" if it was Montana or Colorado. Deer Lodge also seems to have been planted in the brain of the witness by the cop who interviewed him.

As for Ted K and the sex change, yes I have read this in several locations. I remember when he was first arrested, and the psycholgical report was released to the public. It is very thorough -- it talks about his problems in college of alienation, how he had fantasies of being a woman, how he had an extremely hard time meeting a girlfriend etc.. It also gave specifics of the psycholgical tests they administered him. His IQ was 136 on the Weschler scale. This is lower than I expected, but considering he had just been arrested, it is no surprise he performed lower than expected. 136 on the Weschler is still above the top 1%. They also administered a battery of personality tests etc... Then they wrote a conclusion of his psychological state and how it tied into the murders. It was some good stuff.

I think Gareth Penn is onto something with his "radian theory." I am amazed that the police totally ignored one of Zodiac's comments in one of his letters when he said that radians were important. However, I do not buy Penn's suspect. I have yet to see any proof he has given that shows that Michael O'Hare's name can be divulged from any of the cryptograms or binary/morse code interpretations of the letters.

Chris Billings · 03-15-2007, 12:49 AM

Hi everyone:

Im sort of a Zodiac freak so maybe I can help a little.

There is actually only one person who definitely saw Zodiac and lived. His name is Mike Mageau and in 1992 he identified Arthur Leigh Allen from a photo line up as the man who shot him.

The two cops you mentioned who spoke to a suspect on the night of the Paul Stine murder, may or may not have met the Zodiac. I think they did but no one saw this person at the crime scene and the police unfortunately did not ask the man for ID or search him for weapons.

Bryan Hartnell is another survivor of a Zodiac attack but unlike Mike Mageau, he did not see his face. The Zodiac was wearing an executioners costume which included a hood.

As for the Zodiac/Unabomber connection, in my humble opinion, its not that strong. The Zodiac loved taunting the police and the newspapers with his crimes, the Unabomber on the other hand believed technology was destroying society. The tone of the letters is just not the same. Well I could go on for ever on the Zodiac but I wont bore you.

PS As a big fan of Unsolved Mysteries, I think most members of this board would like the new Zodiac movie. I sure did.

Christopher

03-09-2007, 06:52 PM	#1
Beavervalleygirl Member Occasional Poster Join Date: Sep 10, 2005 Posts: 30	Zodiac and Unibomber ............. ............does anyone think they are the same person ?

03-15-2007, 12:49 AM	#15
Chris Billings Member Frequent Poster Join Date: Feb 21, 2004 Location: CA Posts: 192	Zodiac Data Hi everyone: Im sort of a Zodiac freak so maybe I can help a little. There is actually only one person who definitely saw Zodiac and lived. His name is Mike Mageau and in 1992 he identified Arthur Leigh Allen from a photo line up as the man who shot him. The two cops you mentioned who spoke to a suspect on the night of the Paul Stine murder, may or may not have met the Zodiac. I think they did but no one saw this person at the crime scene and the police unfortunately did not ask the man for ID or search him for weapons. Bryan Hartnell is another survivor of a Zodiac attack but unlike Mike Mageau, he did not see his face. The Zodiac was wearing an executioners costume which included a hood. As for the Zodiac/Unabomber connection, in my humble opinion, its not that strong. The Zodiac loved taunting the police and the newspapers with his crimes, the Unabomber on the other hand believed technology was destroying society. The tone of the letters is just not the same. Well I could go on for ever on the Zodiac but I wont bore you. PS As a big fan of Unsolved Mysteries, I think most members of this board would like the new Zodiac movie. I sure did. Christopher

03-09-2007, 07:34 PM	#2
Thiussat Member Forum Regular Join Date: Mar 09, 2007 Posts: 601	UM did an entire segment on this, as you probably know. Some things are certain: Based on the composites of Zodiac, Ted K. and the Zodiac were both around the same age. Both of them were in the same town in California at the time when the murders happened (I think Ted was there because he was teaching at Berkeley). The Zodiac used ciphers in his letters and Ted K was known to be a brilliant mathematician (I think he had a PhD from Harvard and was highly regarded by his colleagues. I think he even had a specialty in cryptology, which is very interesting). Also, one of the undecoded ciphers is now known to have contained the exact number of letters in Ted's name. However, this is much like the "Bible code", with enough digging, anyone can make mathematical connections with anything. I think it was Michael Shermer of Skeptic magazine who proved that he can code any novel or book to make cryptic predictions. So I don't put much stock into the cipher coincidence. As for the facts against it: Ted has never admitted to it, and this hurts the notion because he has nothing to lose by admitting it now. The methods of murder were different. Also, I am sure that a handwriting and grammar analyst can probably show many differences in Ted's writings and the Zodiac's (Ted did write a book). Ted also seemed motivated by political reasons -- he killed only his colleagues, mostly professors, who he disagreed with, and in some cases, had a personal history with. The Zodiac seemed fixated on killing young lovers randomly in parks. Much is made of the fact that the murder styles were different, and this is the main fact the skeptics use. However, I say once a psycho always a psycho. The skeptics like to say that the Zodiac was an "up close" killer and Ted was a "shy" killer. However, I disagree. Wearing a mask or hood and killing someone with a GUN, is not that up close. For example, it isn't like Bundy or Ramirez, where they often raped and killed their victims slowly. Using a gun is not that "courageous" or daring. I think the coincidences are intriguing, but the liklihood is not that great. What are the chances? Sheer probability is against the idea. After Ted K. was convicted, his psychological study was published online by the shrinks who examined him after his capture. I read it all, and it was very interesting. He had a fetish for wanting a sex change. The guy was definitely troubled and it would not surprise me if he was the Zodiac. Now I have a question for anyone who cares to answer. The only witness who got a close look at the Zodiac, the cop in the car, claimed that he saw the Zodiac walk up into the yard and towards the house of a very prominent person. He said he cannot release this guy's name for fear of a lawsuit. This guy has denied being the Zodiac, but I was wondering if anyone knew who this guy was? It sounds interesting.

03-09-2007, 10:39 PM	#4
Thiussat Member Forum Regular Join Date: Mar 09, 2007 Posts: 601	Thanks for the clarification, Awsi. I knew I may have had the details a bit wrong, but I remember seeing this issue discussed on one of the Zodiac specials I saw on TV once. Didn't a cop see a man who he thinks was the Zodiac? It seems like he stopped the man right after the shooting and the man said "He went that way." The cop now thinks the guy was purposely misleading him. It seems they have never had any luck in finding this witness, so it has led them to think it was definitely the Zodiac himself. Am I on track here? Is this the same person who was walking the dog? I need to do some more research on this, I have forgotten a lot. Later.

03-09-2007, 11:13 PM	#5
Awsi Dooger Member Senior Member Join Date: Feb 18, 2003 Location: Miami Posts: 1,537	You've got it right, Thiussat. Cops arrived within minutes and it's believed a patrol car came upon Zodiac. He walked away slowly and couldn't have gotten far. There's dispute whether they talked to him, or merely looked at him and dismissed him because the initial suspect description somehow was wrong and indicated a black assailant. There was a segment on ABC PrimeTime Live in maybe 2002 that found the cop and he went back to the site where he believes he encountered Zodiac. I've got to split so I don't have time to look up the officer's name, but I think it was something like Paul Foulke. You could go to Zodiackiller.com for the specifics, especially the old archived message board, the first of the three. The second officer in that car died very young, within months of the Zodiac incident, but I've never learned the details of his death.

03-09-2007, 11:43 PM	#6
Thiussat Member Forum Regular Join Date: Mar 09, 2007 Posts: 601	Ok, I don't want to start a whole new thread on the Zodiac, but I am going to change the subject here a little, but keep it on him. I assume many of you have read his letters. I just got finished reading a few on zodiackiller.com and I find it curious. What I mean is that he obviously is a fairly intelligent individual, but he did misspell quite a few words in one letter I saw. He also made other grammatical mistakes, like leaving out apostrophes and commas. Was this done on purpose? Was he simply in a hurry? Was he simply mathematically inclined, yet not grammatically inclined? Interesting.

03-10-2007, 06:25 AM	#7
SiberianKiss Member Frequent Poster Join Date: Mar 08, 2006 Posts: 204	Allen misspelled words the same way as Zodiac

03-10-2007, 07:58 PM	#8
Thiussat Member Forum Regular Join Date: Mar 09, 2007 Posts: 601	Does anyone here know the real name of Mr. X? The guy Mike Rodelli thinks is guilty? Rodelli refuses to release his name publicly, but it seems hard for anyone to take him seriously unless they know WHO in the world he is talking about. I came across one website that revealed his name, but after further research, I think this website has it wrong. I don't think the guy they listed is Rodelli's Mr. X. If anyone knows, please send it to me privately (if you don't want to post it here). Thanks

03-10-2007, 09:14 PM	#9
Awsi Dooger Member Senior Member Join Date: Feb 18, 2003 Location: Miami Posts: 1,537	I saw the name several years ago on the web when that zodiackiller.com message board first became well known. The name you probably found is definitely wrong. About a week ago when I read Rodelli's new stuff I tried to find the name and the one listed on some websites, normally in the comment section, is not the name I saw years ago. Mike Rodelli posts on the zodiackiller.com message board. His user name is fairly obvious, mike r, or something like that. I doubt he would give the name to someone he doesn't know, but it might be worth a shot if you convinced him you merely wanted it for your own curiosity.

03-11-2007, 03:50 PM	#10
justins5256 Member Forum 3000 Club Member Join Date: Aug 08, 2002 Posts: 3,866	Can't answer your question, but I recently finished a great book titled "The Cases That Haunt Us" by John Douglas and Mark Olshaker, two retired FBI profilers. It has a chapter devoted to creating a psychological profile of the Zodiac and is a VERY interesting read. Dare I say there is NO WAY Zodiac and the Unabomber were one in the same.

03-11-2007, 04:14 PM	#11
Thiussat Member Forum Regular Join Date: Mar 09, 2007 Posts: 601	I just find it odd that Rodelli wont release the name. Like someone on the Zodiac message board told him, "If you were to post a benign article or a wesbite with Mr. X's name in it, no one could prove you were implicating Mr. X." There are many ways he could release the name without "releasing it." He claims he is worried about lawsuits, but what about the other 500 people that researchers have implicated? I don't see them suing.

03-12-2007, 01:10 AM	#12
SiberianKiss Member Frequent Poster Join Date: Mar 08, 2006 Posts: 204	I wonder if Darlene Ferrin would've had some important info. Poor girl If Mike Mageau wasn't such a sissy (he screamed out after the first round of bullets so Zodiac came back to shoot them some more) she may have lived.

03-12-2007, 06:09 AM	#14
Thiussat Member Forum Regular Join Date: Mar 09, 2007 Posts: 601	I am not convinced that Zodiac and Ted K. are one in the same. I read an article earlier on one of the Zodiac sites discussing how there is a lot of misinformation and fallacies about this case floating around. One of the fallacies listed was the fact that the Zodiac told his victims he was from Deer Lodge, MT. This author actually quoted the police report, that was done after the witness interview, and the witness "wasn't sure" if it was Montana or Colorado. Deer Lodge also seems to have been planted in the brain of the witness by the cop who interviewed him. As for Ted K and the sex change, yes I have read this in several locations. I remember when he was first arrested, and the psycholgical report was released to the public. It is very thorough -- it talks about his problems in college of alienation, how he had fantasies of being a woman, how he had an extremely hard time meeting a girlfriend etc.. It also gave specifics of the psycholgical tests they administered him. His IQ was 136 on the Weschler scale. This is lower than I expected, but considering he had just been arrested, it is no surprise he performed lower than expected. 136 on the Weschler is still above the top 1%. They also administered a battery of personality tests etc... Then they wrote a conclusion of his psychological state and how it tied into the murders. It was some good stuff. I think Gareth Penn is onto something with his "radian theory." I am amazed that the police totally ignored one of Zodiac's comments in one of his letters when he said that radians were important. However, I do not buy Penn's suspect. I have yet to see any proof he has given that shows that Michael O'Hare's name can be divulged from any of the cryptograms or binary/morse code interpretations of the letters.