Billy Ray Hargrove/Mike Carmichal Murders

[Huskerz85]

What I know of the murders, I got from the 1993 intro clip I have.........after watching said clip for the Nth time (I like the old black background/neon graphics better--1988)......I decided to do a search.

No information on here

None on Yahoo/Google......

Billy Ray Hargrove and Mike Carmichael were both best friends, serving together in the US Army. In Feb. of 1992, Hargrove was found hung from a tree, right outside his home. 6 weeks later, his friend Mike Carmichael was also found hung, this time from a barracks locker. During the intro, RS mentioned how Congress was looking into those deaths as well as a few other cases of US servicemen who'd died under fishy circumstances.........

Surely someone with more investigative prowess than me can come up with some info......

[Huskerz85]

I'm of the opinion that some other guys Hargrove and Carmichal knew were into some bad stuff......now I don't know whether it's drugs, or sex (harassment? rape?), or even arms dealing but it had to be something bad enough for someone higher up to take notice and get scared..............because as far as I know, there's no info on the net and I haven't heard of any updates on any subsequent segments.

So it would then stand to reason that either a) someone higher up got scared, like I said.......or b) noone's figured out what happened and so the officials are just sitting on their thumbs, hoping everyone forgets.....

[mattc]

I have to admit I was a bit disappointed with this segment; maybe it's just me, but I'm not seeing the murder cover-up idea at all. In virtually every "was it suicide or murder" case UM features, there is pretty convincing evidence to suggest murder. I kept waiting for it during this segment, but I kept thinking that it is entirely possible that the boys killed themselves.

The only thing that really seems to suggest otherwise is the parents of the boys saying "they would never do that." As we all know, suicide can occur by anyone at any time, and a lot of the time it comes as a total shock.

Am I missing something here? I know we like to make all things seem mysterious, but I'm not getting any angle here that makes it appear to be a cover-up..in fact, Carmichael's wife is said to have "accepted the suicide ruling" which leads me to think perhaps she feels it was possible he was depressed, anxious, etc.

Any comments?

[Mastermind]

Any comments?

Sadly I have not yet watched this segment to comment.

Looking at the basics of this case...I will say this.

You have to be careful with cases that involve military, local police or law enforcemnt.
By nature these case are not investigated the same as non-civilian deaths for these reasons:
1. Most of these institutions don't want their reputations sullied by the personel being involved in criminal activity or being victims of criminal activity. It looks bad on the institution at whole and it leads higher ups to be questioned about their leadership. So whenever given the chance to make a murder a suicide...they usually jump at this opportunity.
2. Because there are secrets and information that need to be kept confidential, investigators may not be able to investigate as freely as in an non-civilan invetsigation. For example, you may not be able to find out info on a classified operation that the victim was involved in that is germaine to your cae.
3. Soldiers, cops, federal agents, are potential victims of the very people they are targeting. Cops are killed by criminals. CIA agents get killed by rival agencies. Military people get killed by terrorists. These are invetsigations that may be hurt if they go public. These are investigations that are best done out of the public. They may simply give a public reason, while invetsigating separately.
4. These types of institutions tend to clean up their own messes. They also are above the law in most regards. Hence, they are more likely to commit illegal activities and cover up rather than go through the legal process. Even if it means murder.

[Mastermind]

Okay, now I remember this segment.

1. You don;t think it's bizarre that two officers
a. hung themselves with the same type of chord.
b. knew each other well committ suicide the same way?
c. both had signs of violence on their bodies prior to being hung.
d. Both died after suspicious military behavior- a court martial involving a forgery, a investigation into the
g. both were summoned to barracks before they committed suicide? (wouldn;t they have gone first, then committed suicide after)

2. While I believe that it's possible that the first soldier committed suicide, I think it's too bizarre that the second soldier died while investigating the others death.

3. The fact that the examiner concurred with the first soldiers wife that he may have not written the suicide note i svery curious. When did he write the note to begin with? Directly after he was called up?

4. There is the whole mystery around the forgery-medal fiasco. There may be a whole lot more to that story.

5. The best and most easiest way to fake a suicide is by hanging. That's why it's so common in prisons. All you have to do is choke someone and then tie a rope around them and tie the other end to an object. Easy to do. Heck most investigators won't look that deeply into the case to notice the tell tale signs of strangulation.

6. There is several pieces of evidence surrounding both hangings to suggets that they were staged.

[synthisislab]

Mike Carmichael's "suicide" scene seems very suspicious to me. Then the evidence box that he had compiled about Billy Ray Hargrove's alleged murder just conveniently disappears. Why would he commit suicide himself after trying to prove that his friend's "suicide" was murder? It makes absolutely no sense to me. It just shows to me that both cases were murder made to look like suicides to shut them up.

[kadrmas15]

Yes, I concur here. I mean, out of the two, the one that would be more probable to be a suicide would be Billy Ray Hargrove's and I am not convinced beyond a reasonable doubt that he did kill himself. But it is VERY obvious to me that Mike Carmichael did not kill himself.

I just find that to be one hell of a coincidence that Mike Carmichael would just happen to off himself right when he was investigating his friend's death and wanted the Army to pay for what they did to his friend. I just find that frankly to be a bunch of crap that the Army would even try to sell the story that Carmichael was so despondent that he would kill himself.

The way Carmichael was hung in and of itself is very bizarre. I tend to think that Carmichael was beaten and either killed or at least knocked unconscious before he was put into the position he was found in. The way he was hung is just not a way someone intending on killing themselves would do it I do not think because frankly, you would not be high enough off the ground to ensure you would strangle because you would have to basically force yourself to sit in that position when your natural inclination would be to put your hands on the ground. So no, I do not believe Carmichael killed himself.

I also find it to be one hell of an interesting phenomenon that the metal box containing Billy Ray and Mike's personal papers which was sitting on a desk across from Mike's body would just get up and walk away. I did not know boxes had such a capability! Oh wait, they do not have one. Which means someone compromised the crime scene and moved it not following rules of procedure for evidence. Now who would take that box unless they had a reason for hiding it/destroying it, covering something up?

If Billy Ray's death was an isolated incident I would be more inclined to believe it was suicide. However there is just too much weird stuff going on in this instance for me to be comfortable labeling his death a suicide. It just seems weird to me that he would seem fine, even go out and walk the family dog and then when he was summoned to the Army barracks, he just decides, oh, what the heck I got nothing else to do better go hang myself? Does not add up.

[bell83]

Originally Posted by Mastermind

Okay, now I remember this segment.

1. You don;t think it's bizarre that two officers
a. hung themselves with the same type of chord.
b. knew each other well committ suicide the same way?
c. both had signs of violence on their bodies prior to being hung.
d. Both died after suspicious military behavior- a court martial involving a forgery, a investigation into the
g. both were summoned to barracks before they committed suicide? (wouldn;t they have gone first, then committed suicide after)

2. While I believe that it's possible that the first soldier committed suicide, I think it's too bizarre that the second soldier died while investigating the others death.

3. The fact that the examiner concurred with the first soldiers wife that he may have not written the suicide note i svery curious. When did he write the note to begin with? Directly after he was called up?

4. There is the whole mystery around the forgery-medal fiasco. There may be a whole lot more to that story.

5. The best and most easiest way to fake a suicide is by hanging. That's why it's so common in prisons. All you have to do is choke someone and then tie a rope around them and tie the other end to an object. Easy to do. Heck most investigators won't look that deeply into the case to notice the tell tale signs of strangulation.

6. There is several pieces of evidence surrounding both hangings to suggets that they were staged.

While I do agree that it is most likely not a suicide, I have to disagree with your first reason. 550 cord is a pretty ubiquitious thing in the military. It's incredibly useful for pretty much everything, and it's something a person would more likely have lying around than say, a few feet of rope. As far as the whole medal issue, if his unit deployed to SW Asia, regardless of whether they saw combat, they were eligible for the SW Asia Service Medal they were describing. If they didn't deploy, then they're not. I don't really see how this became an issue. Either they're eligible and get it, or they're not and don't. It shouldn't have even been something they needed to be recommended for, like ARCOM or other actual decorations.

[Mastermind]

It's incredibly useful for pretty much everything, and it's something a person would more likely have lying around than say, a few feet of rope.

Why hang yourself, when you have a gun? Aren't most military suicides via bullet to the head with your own service weapon.

Hanging becomes a very useful fake suicide method considering that nobody has to hear a gun fire.

[synthisislab]

Yeah, I would think a gun would be a much more effective way to commit suicide than hanging yourself with some thin cord only a few feet off the ground. I think the Mike Carmichael's murder just proves that Billy Ray Hargrove was murdered also and by the same perpetrator(s).

[bell83]

Originally Posted by Mastermind

Why hang yourself, when you have a gun? Aren't most military suicides via bullet to the head with your own service weapon.

Hanging becomes a very useful fake suicide method considering that nobody has to hear a gun fire.

No, I absolutely agree with you. I just meant about the "very convenient that they both use the same type of cord." I don't believe they were suicides, either. I definitely think they were staged.

[WishfulDreamer]

I'm going to bump this one. I think Carmichael's death in particular is extremely unlikely to be a suicide. One would not hang oneself against a locker; that's the silliest thing I've ever heard. It's similar to the Keith Warren case, as if he would have done that sophisticated work with the rope if he really wanted to kill himself that way. Sure and I'm Michael Jordan.

[TheCars1986]

Anyone think it's possible that Carmichael became depressed/despondent when he found out that his friend did in fact commit suicide?

[MegtheEgg86]

Originally Posted by TheCars1986

Anyone think it's possible that Carmichael became depressed/despondent when he found out that his friend did in fact commit suicide?

I do, yes.

For the record, I am an officer in the Army Reserve and just finished a year of active duty service. Military suicide awareness is a HUGE thing throughout the DoD right now, due to the rising number of suicides among service members. While the common assumption is that post-traumatic stress from combat service plays the biggest role in military suicides, that's not always the case.

We have a tool in the Army to identify "at-risk" Soldiers so that we as leaders may intervene with resources to help them before they get into any potential trouble. Carmichael and Hargrove had a number of stressors in their lives and careers that would have rendered them "at-risk" today:

1. Korea is not in the continental U.S. (CONUS). OCONUS (Outside CONUS) assignments are more difficult for Soldiers to adapt to and cope with than are CONUS assignments for many reasons: their families are very far away and might be difficult to contact for that reason, money problems might be harder to solve, local cultural differences, etc.

2. Carmichael and Hargrove were very young Sergeants. A paycheck in the grade of E-5 isn't substantial by any stretch and I'm sure it was even less so in recession-era 1992. Both were married and helping support their wives--and Hargrove was about to embark on a divorce, which can also be very costly. I can tell you right now money is the number one thing that consistently crops up as a problem in young Soldiers' lives, especially young married Soldiers. I could literally write volumes on just this alone. It suffices to say, however, that it is a crucial factor in high-risk behavior in service members.

3. The "Desert Storm medal" issue. Far more units were mobilized for the Gulf War than were needed, and shortly after arriving in country many of those units were demobilized without participating in operations. This seems to be what happened to Carmichael and Hargrove's unit. They wouldn't have even received an Overseas Service Ribbon if they hadn't been there past 30 days, and that can be a huge blow to a Soldier's ego. I think, however, what they were trying to obtain was a Kuwait Liberation Medal--which they wouldn't have been eligible for if they didn't spend enough time in theater. That can be a reason to grow angry, depressed, and/or despondent.

I can also say that if one of my Soldiers had forged my signature on an award recommendation, he/she would without question receive an Article 15 (nonjudicial punishment). And if he/she were a Sergeant--a noncommissioned officer who should know a whole hell of a lot better than forgery--he/she would go back to Specialist--no question, no discussion.

In any event, job dissatisfaction ("I'm a Soldier and deployed, but didn't get an award"), negative encounters with superiors, and possible official reprimands also contribute to high-risk behavior.

4. Hargrove's marital problems, which were touched on in the segment.

5. Hargrove's subsequent death is a huge factor for Carmichael. The death of a close friend or loved one is enough to put a Soldier on limited duty today.


Regardless of the manner of death, there IS a lot of evidence to suggest the two were at risk for suicidal or reckless behavior that might not have been recognized in the military of the early '90s.

http://www.docstoc.com/docs/43063278...MENT-CHECKLIST

[radiohead33]

Originally Posted by MegtheEgg86

I do, yes.

For the record, I am an officer in the Army Reserve and just finished a year of active duty service. Military suicide awareness is a HUGE thing throughout the DoD right now, due to the rising number of suicides among service members. While the common assumption is that post-traumatic stress from combat service plays the biggest role in military suicides, that's not always the case.

We have a tool in the Army to identify "at-risk" Soldiers so that we as leaders may intervene with resources to help them before they get into any potential trouble. Carmichael and Hargrove had a number of stressors in their lives and careers that would have rendered them "at-risk" today:

1. Korea is not in the continental U.S. (CONUS). OCONUS (Outside CONUS) assignments are more difficult for Soldiers to adapt to and cope with than are CONUS assignments for many reasons: their families are very far away and might be difficult to contact for that reason, money problems might be harder to solve, local cultural differences, etc.

2. Carmichael and Hargrove were very young Sergeants. A paycheck in the grade of E-5 isn't substantial by any stretch and I'm sure it was even less so in recession-era 1992. Both were married and helping support their wives--and Hargrove was about to embark on a divorce, which can also be very costly. I can tell you right now money is the number one thing that consistently crops up as a problem in young Soldiers' lives, especially young married Soldiers. I could literally write volumes on just this alone. It suffices to say, however, that it is a crucial factor in high-risk behavior in service members.

3. The "Desert Storm medal" issue. Far more units were mobilized for the Gulf War than were needed, and shortly after arriving in country many of those units were demobilized without participating in operations. This seems to be what happened to Carmichael and Hargrove's unit. They wouldn't have even received an Overseas Service Ribbon if they hadn't been there past 30 days, and that can be a huge blow to a Soldier's ego. I think, however, what they were trying to obtain was a Kuwait Liberation Medal--which they wouldn't have been eligible for if they didn't spend enough time in theater. That can be a reason to grow angry, depressed, and/or despondent.

I can also say that if one of my Soldiers had forged my signature on an award recommendation, he/she would without question receive an Article 15 (nonjudicial punishment). And if he/she were a Sergeant--a noncommissioned officer who should know a whole hell of a lot better than forgery--he/she would go back to Specialist--no question, no discussion.

In any event, job dissatisfaction ("I'm a Soldier and deployed, but didn't get an award"), negative encounters with superiors, and possible official reprimands also contribute to high-risk behavior.

4. Hargrove's marital problems, which were touched on in the segment.

5. Hargrove's subsequent death is a huge factor for Carmichael. The death of a close friend or loved one is enough to put a Soldier on limited duty today.


Regardless of the manner of death, there IS a lot of evidence to suggest the two were at risk for suicidal or reckless behavior that might not have been recognized in the military of the early '90s.

http://www.docstoc.com/docs/43063278...MENT-CHECKLIST

You keep referencing high risk behavior, which is inappriopriate in this case, because there is no evidence either of them were drinking or on drugs. He forged a document, plain and simple, thats about as high risk as it got. I see no evidence of any other high risk behavior engaged in by either

Secondly when did he have time to write the note?

Third, there is no explanation for the box with all the information in it to be missing, other than it was a coverup and it was destroyed, thus it was murder. Thats the only and sole explanation for the box being missing.

Seems to me, a likely scenario possibly was that the first guy, someone or several soldiers saw him walking his dog and not going to the base or wherever he was supposed to be going. He gave a struggle, and the others tried to subdue him and he hit a rock on the ground or fell too hard on the ground. The soldiers were worried and staged the suicide.

The second guy I think found out about what happened, that it was murder and was tenacious enough, shown and proven by his gung ho I will find those guys attitude, and the military wanted to protect its own and had him offed, and staged the scene, took the box and destroyed it.