New idea about the Kurt McFall case - Sitcoms Online Message Boards

justins5256 · 01-19-2007, 03:11 PM

I finished watching this again recently and something dawned on me. Did anyone else notice that during the re-enactment of the discovery of Kurt's car that the driver's side door was hanging wide open? I'm not sure how accurate UM's re-enactments are but this left me wondering if possibly some winos/bums or maybe even teenagers happened upon Kurt's abandoned car and burglarized it stealing his prized suit of armor and carelessly leaving the beer cans behind in the process. The only problem I can see is that a 20 dollar bill was found in the glove compartment, but it could have been overlooked by a careless thief. Also, the car keys were allegedly found on the seat. Perhaps Kurt intentionally or unintentionally left one of the car's doors unlocked and someone noticed the keys in plain site and took advantage of the situation.

I want to take a moment to say that I know nothing of the group or "cult" that Kurt was allegedly a member of, but from the rituals portrayed on UM and some of the comments made, it seems like the group is benign and benevolent in nature. Would a bunch of guys who sit around holding hands and repeatedly chanting "Hail Earth, mother of all" be involved in a cold blooded murder and cover up of that fact?

Sorry, the murder scenario doesn't wash.

crystaldawn · 01-19-2007, 10:32 PM

Yes it is entirely possible that bums could have been in Kurt's car after having found it abandoned. It probably would have been dark and they may not have seen the money in the glove compartment. I tend to agree that it sounds more plausible that he wasn't murdered. He was experimenting with this strange cult which would make one think he was probably questioning a lot of things in his life, maybe even depressed or suicidal. He could have chosen to climb that cliff and I think he either fell or jumped voluntarily.

DarkDante · 01-19-2007, 10:44 PM

I agree with the two of you and not to try to steal any of Justin's thunder but the exact same thought came to me the last time i watched the segment. Kurt possibly fell to his death just like Gabe said possibly by taking too many chances or maybe just because it was dark and he was in a place he had never been before just fell to his death by accident perhaps by loosing his footing.

Its very possible as Justin said that some teens might have shown up and stashed discarded their empty beer cans and stuff in and around Kurt's car which might have been left open by Kurt himself if he was just intending on taking a quick walk to the side of the cliff.

justins5256 · 01-20-2007, 01:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crystaldawn

probably questioning a lot of things in his life, maybe even depressed or suicidal.

and that comment made me think of the drawings of "violent fantasies" found in Kurt's room by his father. I'm guessing this is yet another instance of a parent who either can't accept or understand the reasons for their child's death so they cope by conjuring up scenarios that are often compelling but ultimately can not be supported by hard evidence.

DarkDante · 01-20-2007, 08:03 PM

Here are some interesting links relating to the case that some of you might find interesting if not amusing:

Remember Hilary Powers, the SCA leader who was interviewed in full medieval garb? - She has penned several columns under her "SCA name", "Hilary of Serendip"

Sorry (seriously now) the link can be found here: http://history.westkingdom.org/HilaryColumns/index.htm

Crystaldawn since you are an avid baker perhaps you would like to try to attempt to make "Hilary Cake" for your next family gathering - the link can be found here: http://history.westkingdom.org/Hilar...s/Column33.htm

Finally in some type of perverse tribute to Kurt McFall I present to the group this current events article that I found on the main page of Yahoo this afternoon: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070120/...arbook_lawsuit

LOL!

Later.

wiseguy182 · 04-09-2007, 06:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by justins5256

I want to take a moment to say that I know nothing of the group or "cult" that Kurt was allegedly a member of, but from the rituals portrayed on UM and some of the comments made, it seems like the group is benign and benevolent in nature. Would a bunch of guys who sit around holding hands and repeatedly chanting "Hail Earth, mother of all" be involved in a cold blooded murder and cover up of that fact?

Sorry, the murder scenario doesn't wash.

Yeah, I agree. Hillary and Korrodic(sp?) seem pretty harmless to me. They also seemed really genuine when they said they didn't know anything of Kurt's death. Korrodic had an interesting point: he said that, if anything, his group taught individuality.

However, I'm not totally convinced Kurt wasn't murdered. When he was found dead, he wasn't wearing any shoes or socks. I find it hard to believe somebody would go rock climbing on pointy rocks without any shoes on.

Chris Billings · 04-09-2007, 06:49 AM

I agree with the group consensus, that Kurt was not a murder victim.

I am however confused about one thing. Was the group Kurt belonged to strictly a medieval/renaissance faire type club or did they also have some ties with the occult/satanism?

Christopher

baton_man · 04-09-2007, 07:11 PM

Korrodic seems a little creepy to me. I have to wonder why he has a kid staying at his house. He kinda reminds me of Michael Jackson

DarkDante · 04-10-2007, 12:00 AM

Well you have to remember that Kurt McFall really wasn't "a kid" - he was seventeen years old and from what I can tell from the segment actually seemed like a pretty mature kid. Whether we agree with his choice of religion or not he didn't seem like the kind of kid who just wanted to go through life going to proms and parties but wanted to branch out and explore who he was.

So Korrodic was I would say in his late twenties-early thirties at the time that Kurt McFall died and Kurt was visiting him for the weekend. I don't see anything wrong with that at all. Kurt was a member of Korrodic's pagan religion group and perhaps looked at Korrodic as a mentor or a friend and went up to visit him for the weekend perhaps attending some meetings regarding Pagan religion (we never learn exactly why Kurt was visiting Korrodic) and Korrodic offered Kurt McFall his home so that Kurt wouldn't have to spend money for a hotel room for the weekend which can be a pretty hefty expense for a seventeen year old.

As to whether Korrodic's group was a Satanic cult - thats subjective at best. Pagan religion doesn't necessarily have to involve occult aspects although on the other hand they certainly can as well. Whether Korrodic's group was into Satanisim or not is certainly one of the questions that is unanswered in this segment but I feel that Korrodic himself comes off as extremely credible in this segment and I feel is the victim of a lot of the stereotyping of the time period where people really were very willing to say someone was in a cult or into Satanisim just based on for example, the type of music they listened to. So no I personally don't feel Korrodic was a Satanist.

I actually do feel however that Kurt McFall's friend is a classic example of an unreliable witness or unreliable narrator. His accusations seem to be totally unfounded in that if he feared that much for his friend's life why didn't he alert Kurt's father himself before Kurt died. In addition if Kurt McFall was in that much fear of his own life why did he himself not alert his father let alone venture out to spend the weekend with the leader of the cult whom others allege were plotting to destroy him.

In addition I find a lot of Kurt's friends statements to be very naive such as "Kurt's interest in medieval religion can be compared to a drug addiction where he first studied with an interest in that religion to later adopting that religion as his own".

My response to that would be: What the hell is wrong with that? - I mean I may have no interest in Pagan religion but we do live in a free country and lots of people persue offbeat interests that others don't understand or would find to be boring/strange but does that make them junkies or bad people? - If Kurt McFall wanted to persue this interest in Pagan religion then I say good for him, at least he wasn't sitting at home playing Nintendo like this joker probably was doing.

Finally his comment about "Kurt lost a lot of his friends due to his association with this religion" - Duh! teenagers are generally conformists (even though most of them will never admit it) and those who march to their own beat are viewed as outcasts. Kurt was willing to branch out beyond his clique of friends and "grow up" these kids obviously weren't as adventurous. So they shunned Kurt because they didn't understand why he was branching out beyond them.

Its very similar to the Adam Hecdt case in that a person who sought to transcend the norms in which he was brought up in, in order to gain a greater life experience is viewed as strange or outcasted by the very people who should be most supportive of his willingness to grow and change.

wiseguy182 · 04-10-2007, 06:35 AM

Some good points there Dante.

I'm in the minority here, but I believe Kurt could have been murdered. As I mentioned above, I don't think that Korrodic is evil. Different, yes. Evil, no. However, Kurt could have been murdered by someone else. He was out in the middle of the night by himself, at age 17, in a big city in the most populated state in the union, so in that circumstance, foul play wouldn't be all that hard to believe.

I also mentioned above that it would be unlikely for someone to go out rock climbing with no shoes on. Correct me if I'm wrong, but there's no telling how pointy the rocks can get up there.

In addition, I realized something else just now that makes me believe Kurt didn't commit suicide or died accidentally. In the segment, his body is laying at a perfect angle, and his body is completely streched out. This could be another one of those UM re-enactment errors. But if the re-enactment is correct, his body is at either a 90, 180, 270 or 360 degree angle. (I couldn't tell which direction his body was). The odds of that are 1 in 90. Highly unlikely. Furthermore, what are the odds his body would be completely streched out? The segment didn't specify where his cuts and abrasions were, but if somebody fell like it was speculated that he did, I think odds would have it that he would either be curled up, clutching one of the areas he was hurt or both.

The main two theories are that he fell off the rocks or drowned. The most popular idea is falling off the rocks which would explain the cuts and abrasions. However, I believe it took 2 or 3 days for his body to be discovered. If he had fallen off the rocks, how come nobody noticed it. Had he been in the water, it is possible no one might have noticed him. Furthermore, the lifeguard that found him said that his body was pale, which would coincide with being in the water for an extended part of time. Unless Kurt's body was naturally very pale.

But, going back to his body being at a perfect angle, the odds are still 1 in 90 that it would be found that way. This leads me to believe he had been layed out there by someone. My theory is that someone pushed him off, but then decided that a drowning might look less suspicious, and attempted to make it seem like an accidental drowning.

It was speculated that Kurt might have gone for a swim. But the only thing he was wearing when his body was found was jeans. I kind of doubt he would have gone swimming in jeans, and he apparently had no change of clothes in the car.

This just doesn't add up, any additional thoughts?

Eire · 04-10-2007, 09:53 AM

Allow me to offer some insight into Pagans and the SCA. It's not unusual for Pagans to be involved in the SCA which is mostly just a group of medieval re-inactors like those Civil War buffs. I'm Pagan and a past member of the SCA. I didn't like it, but that's because I prefer indoor pluming and warm water, camping in a tent and worrying about wherther my clothes are "period" or not doesn't appeal to me. The SCA isn't a sinister group or a Satan worshiping one. In fact, each event has several church tents set up for differing Christian faiths. Paganism and Satanism are two entirely different things. Satanists don't even worship Satan, Pagans don't believe in him. Without knowing which particular branch of Paganism these folks practiced, I can't even speculate as to what they would do during a typical ritual or a typical meeting. Most of mine have been a bunch of people sitting around discussing different beliefs, what people believed in the past and what we thought about certain subjects. In fact, most people would be bored to tears at a typical meeting. Occult aspects sometimes come up, but it's not something we do all the time. Ritual is, but that's more like a mass in the Catholic church than any sort of sinister thing. We aren't calling demons for the depths of a place we don't believe on a typical Saturday night is what I'm saying. Like any group, you'll have your weird, out there Pagans and SCA members, but they're the exception and not the rule.

I understand that many of these shows were produced and taped during a time when Paganism and things like the SCA were alien to lots of people and quite misunderstood, but one thinig I've never cared for about UM is the sensationalistic turn they would take in cases like this one. Of course, that was the rule of the day. There's a much more mundane explaination for this young man's death. I'm leaning towards accident myself, but it could have been suicide or murder. If it was murder, I doubt the people behind it were Pagans in the SCA.

Sorry for my mini soap box jump there. I don't mean to offend, just to shed a bit of light.

Chris Billings · 04-11-2007, 01:17 AM

Thanks for the info Eire, very informative for someone like me who knows little about the differences between satanism, paganism and SCA.

As for UM and sensational stories, they do tend to feature them. Murder and suicide afterall are everyday occurences but toss in a little witchcraft or devil worship (people wearing black robes, standing in front of an altar is a sure fire way to get public attention) and you have something special.

Christopher

kadrmas15 · 04-12-2007, 02:38 AM

I actually think it is likely that Kurt McFall was murdered. I am in the minority on that but I do believe it is very possible he could have been beaten and pushed or thrown from the cliff. IT is also possible that he was beaten and then taken to the bottom of the cliff where he was drowned and then laid out. Of course it is also possible that he slipped or accidently fell off the cliff.

I dont think Korrodick killed Kurt or had anything to do with his death. I do think the guy was an odd character but that certainly doesnt make him a murderer.

I would be curious to see the San Francisco police department files on this case. I do think that Kurt's father Tom McFall was on the right track with the murder thing, however I think he tended to view things too much in the conspiracy theory mode of thinking. Like with Kurt's car, I think it is likely as others have said here, that a bunch of street bums or some drunks stumbled onto the abandoned car and went through it looking to rip off some stuff.

A very strange case and we will probably never find out what really happened.

01-19-2007, 03:11 PM	#1
justins5256 Member Forum 3000 Club Member Join Date: Aug 08, 2002 Posts: 3,866	New idea about the Kurt McFall case I finished watching this again recently and something dawned on me. Did anyone else notice that during the re-enactment of the discovery of Kurt's car that the driver's side door was hanging wide open? I'm not sure how accurate UM's re-enactments are but this left me wondering if possibly some winos/bums or maybe even teenagers happened upon Kurt's abandoned car and burglarized it stealing his prized suit of armor and carelessly leaving the beer cans behind in the process. The only problem I can see is that a 20 dollar bill was found in the glove compartment, but it could have been overlooked by a careless thief. Also, the car keys were allegedly found on the seat. Perhaps Kurt intentionally or unintentionally left one of the car's doors unlocked and someone noticed the keys in plain site and took advantage of the situation. I want to take a moment to say that I know nothing of the group or "cult" that Kurt was allegedly a member of, but from the rituals portrayed on UM and some of the comments made, it seems like the group is benign and benevolent in nature. Would a bunch of guys who sit around holding hands and repeatedly chanting "Hail Earth, mother of all" be involved in a cold blooded murder and cover up of that fact? Sorry, the murder scenario doesn't wash.

01-20-2007, 08:03 PM	#5
DarkDante Member Senior Member Join Date: Jul 27, 2002 Posts: 1,569	While admittedly NOT an update to the McFall case Here are some interesting links relating to the case that some of you might find interesting if not amusing: Remember Hilary Powers, the SCA leader who was interviewed in full medieval garb? - She has penned several columns under her "SCA name", "Hilary of Serendip" Sorry (seriously now) the link can be found here: http://history.westkingdom.org/HilaryColumns/index.htm Crystaldawn since you are an avid baker perhaps you would like to try to attempt to make "Hilary Cake" for your next family gathering - the link can be found here: http://history.westkingdom.org/Hilar...s/Column33.htm Finally in some type of perverse tribute to Kurt McFall I present to the group this current events article that I found on the main page of Yahoo this afternoon: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070120/...arbook_lawsuit LOL! Later.

01-19-2007, 10:32 PM	#2
crystaldawn Member Forum 4000 Club Member Join Date: Dec 17, 2002 Location: Illinois Posts: 4,261	Yes it is entirely possible that bums could have been in Kurt's car after having found it abandoned. It probably would have been dark and they may not have seen the money in the glove compartment. I tend to agree that it sounds more plausible that he wasn't murdered. He was experimenting with this strange cult which would make one think he was probably questioning a lot of things in his life, maybe even depressed or suicidal. He could have chosen to climb that cliff and I think he either fell or jumped voluntarily.

01-19-2007, 10:44 PM	#3
DarkDante Member Senior Member Join Date: Jul 27, 2002 Posts: 1,569	I agree with the two of you and not to try to steal any of Justin's thunder but the exact same thought came to me the last time i watched the segment. Kurt possibly fell to his death just like Gabe said possibly by taking too many chances or maybe just because it was dark and he was in a place he had never been before just fell to his death by accident perhaps by loosing his footing. Its very possible as Justin said that some teens might have shown up and stashed discarded their empty beer cans and stuff in and around Kurt's car which might have been left open by Kurt himself if he was just intending on taking a quick walk to the side of the cliff.

04-09-2007, 06:49 AM	#7
Chris Billings Member Frequent Poster Join Date: Feb 21, 2004 Location: CA Posts: 192	I agree with the group consensus, that Kurt was not a murder victim. I am however confused about one thing. Was the group Kurt belonged to strictly a medieval/renaissance faire type club or did they also have some ties with the occult/satanism? Christopher

04-09-2007, 07:11 PM	#8
baton_man Member Occasional Poster Join Date: Oct 27, 2006 Location: maryland Posts: 68	Korrodic seems a little creepy to me. I have to wonder why he has a kid staying at his house. He kinda reminds me of Michael Jackson

04-10-2007, 12:00 AM	#9
DarkDante Member Senior Member Join Date: Jul 27, 2002 Posts: 1,569	Well you have to remember that Kurt McFall really wasn't "a kid" - he was seventeen years old and from what I can tell from the segment actually seemed like a pretty mature kid. Whether we agree with his choice of religion or not he didn't seem like the kind of kid who just wanted to go through life going to proms and parties but wanted to branch out and explore who he was. So Korrodic was I would say in his late twenties-early thirties at the time that Kurt McFall died and Kurt was visiting him for the weekend. I don't see anything wrong with that at all. Kurt was a member of Korrodic's pagan religion group and perhaps looked at Korrodic as a mentor or a friend and went up to visit him for the weekend perhaps attending some meetings regarding Pagan religion (we never learn exactly why Kurt was visiting Korrodic) and Korrodic offered Kurt McFall his home so that Kurt wouldn't have to spend money for a hotel room for the weekend which can be a pretty hefty expense for a seventeen year old. As to whether Korrodic's group was a Satanic cult - thats subjective at best. Pagan religion doesn't necessarily have to involve occult aspects although on the other hand they certainly can as well. Whether Korrodic's group was into Satanisim or not is certainly one of the questions that is unanswered in this segment but I feel that Korrodic himself comes off as extremely credible in this segment and I feel is the victim of a lot of the stereotyping of the time period where people really were very willing to say someone was in a cult or into Satanisim just based on for example, the type of music they listened to. So no I personally don't feel Korrodic was a Satanist. I actually do feel however that Kurt McFall's friend is a classic example of an unreliable witness or unreliable narrator. His accusations seem to be totally unfounded in that if he feared that much for his friend's life why didn't he alert Kurt's father himself before Kurt died. In addition if Kurt McFall was in that much fear of his own life why did he himself not alert his father let alone venture out to spend the weekend with the leader of the cult whom others allege were plotting to destroy him. In addition I find a lot of Kurt's friends statements to be very naive such as "Kurt's interest in medieval religion can be compared to a drug addiction where he first studied with an interest in that religion to later adopting that religion as his own". My response to that would be: What the hell is wrong with that? - I mean I may have no interest in Pagan religion but we do live in a free country and lots of people persue offbeat interests that others don't understand or would find to be boring/strange but does that make them junkies or bad people? - If Kurt McFall wanted to persue this interest in Pagan religion then I say good for him, at least he wasn't sitting at home playing Nintendo like this joker probably was doing. Finally his comment about "Kurt lost a lot of his friends due to his association with this religion" - Duh! teenagers are generally conformists (even though most of them will never admit it) and those who march to their own beat are viewed as outcasts. Kurt was willing to branch out beyond his clique of friends and "grow up" these kids obviously weren't as adventurous. So they shunned Kurt because they didn't understand why he was branching out beyond them. Its very similar to the Adam Hecdt case in that a person who sought to transcend the norms in which he was brought up in, in order to gain a greater life experience is viewed as strange or outcasted by the very people who should be most supportive of his willingness to grow and change.

04-10-2007, 06:35 AM	#10
wiseguy182 Member Forum Veteran Join Date: Apr 11, 2006 Location: Wendy's salad bar Posts: 7,030	Some good points there Dante. I'm in the minority here, but I believe Kurt could have been murdered. As I mentioned above, I don't think that Korrodic is evil. Different, yes. Evil, no. However, Kurt could have been murdered by someone else. He was out in the middle of the night by himself, at age 17, in a big city in the most populated state in the union, so in that circumstance, foul play wouldn't be all that hard to believe. I also mentioned above that it would be unlikely for someone to go out rock climbing with no shoes on. Correct me if I'm wrong, but there's no telling how pointy the rocks can get up there. In addition, I realized something else just now that makes me believe Kurt didn't commit suicide or died accidentally. In the segment, his body is laying at a perfect angle, and his body is completely streched out. This could be another one of those UM re-enactment errors. But if the re-enactment is correct, his body is at either a 90, 180, 270 or 360 degree angle. (I couldn't tell which direction his body was). The odds of that are 1 in 90. Highly unlikely. Furthermore, what are the odds his body would be completely streched out? The segment didn't specify where his cuts and abrasions were, but if somebody fell like it was speculated that he did, I think odds would have it that he would either be curled up, clutching one of the areas he was hurt or both. The main two theories are that he fell off the rocks or drowned. The most popular idea is falling off the rocks which would explain the cuts and abrasions. However, I believe it took 2 or 3 days for his body to be discovered. If he had fallen off the rocks, how come nobody noticed it. Had he been in the water, it is possible no one might have noticed him. Furthermore, the lifeguard that found him said that his body was pale, which would coincide with being in the water for an extended part of time. Unless Kurt's body was naturally very pale. But, going back to his body being at a perfect angle, the odds are still 1 in 90 that it would be found that way. This leads me to believe he had been layed out there by someone. My theory is that someone pushed him off, but then decided that a drowning might look less suspicious, and attempted to make it seem like an accidental drowning. It was speculated that Kurt might have gone for a swim. But the only thing he was wearing when his body was found was jeans. I kind of doubt he would have gone swimming in jeans, and he apparently had no change of clothes in the car. This just doesn't add up, any additional thoughts?

04-10-2007, 09:53 AM	#11
Eire Member Occasional Poster Join Date: Mar 05, 2007 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 85	Allow me to offer some insight into Pagans and the SCA. It's not unusual for Pagans to be involved in the SCA which is mostly just a group of medieval re-inactors like those Civil War buffs. I'm Pagan and a past member of the SCA. I didn't like it, but that's because I prefer indoor pluming and warm water, camping in a tent and worrying about wherther my clothes are "period" or not doesn't appeal to me. The SCA isn't a sinister group or a Satan worshiping one. In fact, each event has several church tents set up for differing Christian faiths. Paganism and Satanism are two entirely different things. Satanists don't even worship Satan, Pagans don't believe in him. Without knowing which particular branch of Paganism these folks practiced, I can't even speculate as to what they would do during a typical ritual or a typical meeting. Most of mine have been a bunch of people sitting around discussing different beliefs, what people believed in the past and what we thought about certain subjects. In fact, most people would be bored to tears at a typical meeting. Occult aspects sometimes come up, but it's not something we do all the time. Ritual is, but that's more like a mass in the Catholic church than any sort of sinister thing. We aren't calling demons for the depths of a place we don't believe on a typical Saturday night is what I'm saying. Like any group, you'll have your weird, out there Pagans and SCA members, but they're the exception and not the rule. I understand that many of these shows were produced and taped during a time when Paganism and things like the SCA were alien to lots of people and quite misunderstood, but one thinig I've never cared for about UM is the sensationalistic turn they would take in cases like this one. Of course, that was the rule of the day. There's a much more mundane explaination for this young man's death. I'm leaning towards accident myself, but it could have been suicide or murder. If it was murder, I doubt the people behind it were Pagans in the SCA. Sorry for my mini soap box jump there. I don't mean to offend, just to shed a bit of light.

04-11-2007, 01:17 AM	#12
Chris Billings Member Frequent Poster Join Date: Feb 21, 2004 Location: CA Posts: 192	Thanks for the info Eire, very informative for someone like me who knows little about the differences between satanism, paganism and SCA. As for UM and sensational stories, they do tend to feature them. Murder and suicide afterall are everyday occurences but toss in a little witchcraft or devil worship (people wearing black robes, standing in front of an altar is a sure fire way to get public attention) and you have something special. Christopher

04-12-2007, 02:38 AM	#13
kadrmas15 Retired from Board 03/03/11 Senior Member Join Date: Mar 11, 2006 Location: Minnesota Posts: 1,910	I actually think it is likely that Kurt McFall was murdered. I am in the minority on that but I do believe it is very possible he could have been beaten and pushed or thrown from the cliff. IT is also possible that he was beaten and then taken to the bottom of the cliff where he was drowned and then laid out. Of course it is also possible that he slipped or accidently fell off the cliff. I dont think Korrodick killed Kurt or had anything to do with his death. I do think the guy was an odd character but that certainly doesnt make him a murderer. I would be curious to see the San Francisco police department files on this case. I do think that Kurt's father Tom McFall was on the right track with the murder thing, however I think he tended to view things too much in the conspiracy theory mode of thinking. Like with Kurt's car, I think it is likely as others have said here, that a bunch of street bums or some drunks stumbled onto the abandoned car and went through it looking to rip off some stuff. A very strange case and we will probably never find out what really happened.