Florida Furniture Store Murders - Sitcoms Online Message Boards

Huskerz85 · 01-06-2007, 12:52 AM

I remember this one case and the only reason I remember it, is because we did a somewhat broad overview of it while discussing capital punishment (am a former Criminal Justice Major)

The place was in Florida......the time was anywhere from the mid 60's, to late 70's.....just can't remember. Anyways, one night there was a break in at a Furniture store.....the proprieter and his wife were murdered.....the police arrested the son-in-law of the couple whose name was 'Tommy' something or other......he got put on death row and I think may have gotten his setence commuted or switched. One of the other things I remember....is that there was a judge in this case who seemed to have a grudge or something of that sort against 'Tommy'....

Anyways, if someone knows the case I'm talkin about and knows what happened....by all means, respond

DarkDante · 01-06-2007, 03:51 AM

This case is very very similar to the case of Dr. Jeffrey MacDonald which has been much discussed here.

Tommy Ziegler was a prosperous businessman who owned and operated a furniture store in Florida in the 70s. Authorities claim that on Christmas Eve 1975 Ziegler murdered his wife and his in-laws in the furniture store. Ziegler was subsequently tried, convicted and sentenced to death for this crime.

Ziegler however mantains his innocence and claims that three black men were attempting to rob the store that night and murdered his family in the process. Ziegler was also wounded during the robbery however authorities feel his wounds were not in line with the murders of his family (ie: why kill three people and leave one alive?)

Indeed the people who Ziegler alleged murdered his family were in the store that night but they claim that it was Ziegler who tried to entice them to break into the store after the murders were committed in order to frame them for the crime. They said Ziegler lured them to the location with a promise of picking up some merchandise and while they waited in the car for the merchandise to arrive, Ziegler had them handle the gun used to kill his family in order to frame them for the crime.

Ziegler mantains this is nothing more then a fabrication by the individuals responsible for his families' murder. There is also some evidence to suggest a cover-up by the police department at the time including concealing certain pieces of evidence from Ziegler's defense team which may have helped set him free.

Ziegler's request for DNA testing which may have proven his innocence has so far been denied. However Ziegler has still not been executed and is persuing other methods of proving his innocence.

More info can be found here:

http://wfla.tbo.com/may/dna.htm
http://www.commondreams.org/views04/1228-23.htm

kadrmas15 · 01-09-2007, 02:22 PM

Yes, I believe Tommy Ziegler is innocent and I hope he does win his release someday. Ziegler is 61 now so I hope he can get released and live some free life. Ziegler has been on death row for nearly 30 and a half years. Interesting they havent executed him. Personally, I think the state probably knows he is innocent and is keeping him in prison because it would look bad to release him. There is so much info on this case on the internet. So much info the police covered up and stuff. Just incredible. The judge that was on the case shouldnt have been on there in the first place because him and Ziegler had not got along before the murders. The judge actually overrode the jury when the jury recommended a life sentence. Apperantly back in 76, the jury was actually split 6 to acquitt, 6 to convict and according to a woman who was on that jury the jurors that wanted to acquitt were worn down and bullied around by the jurors that wanted to convict. One by one the jurors that wanted to acquitt, changed their votes. However there was one hold out woman who refused to change her vote. The judge was worried that there would be a mis trial because of her refusal to convict. So the judge called this woman's doctor and told him to put her on valium because she was being uncooperative. Well the woman was under the influence of valium after that and she had never taken it before and she was unable to keep up her demeanor and changed her vote. She to this day believes Ziegler is innocent. Another juror also years after the trial admitted he had been under the influence of valium during the trial as well and that he too believed Ziegler to be innocent.

DarkDante · 01-10-2007, 05:28 PM

I just watched this case again about five minutes ago because its been awhile since I've seen it and I did leave out some important information. Besides his wife and in-laws there was a fourth victim in the Furniture Store Murders, a black man by the name of Charlie Mays. There was also a witness/possible accomplice to the crime by the name of Ed Williams.

On the night of the murder, Williams happened to be in posession of the gun that was used to murder Ziegler's in-laws. The same night, a short time after the murders he turned the weapon over to a police officer he happened upon on the side of the road saying that Tommy Ziegler had given him the gun that evening for "safe keeping".

However evidence later surfaced that the gun was in fact purchased by Ed Williams himself several weeks earlier. Willaims alleges he originally purchased the gun for his friend Ziegler (who after the murders turned it over to him). However, there is no way to tell if Ziegler was ever in posession of the weapon as the man who initally sold the weapon only remembered dealing with Ed Williams.

Charlie Mays as well becomes a pivotal focal point in the investigation as authorities believe that Ziegler lured Mays into the store and murdered him and then shot himself so he could frame Mays for the triple homicide as well as the attempt on his own life. The problem with this theory is some conflicting reports by other witnesses who were not called to testify at the Ziegler trial.

Two witnesses claim they saw five suspicious vehicles (not two as reported by the state) parked in front of the furniture store shortly before the murders. They also reported that a man resembling Charlie Mays was walking around the building as if he was casing the store prior to the murders which supports Ziegler's theory that his family was murdered during an interrupted robbery involving Mays and possibly some accomplices.

Finally some of the most disturbing evidence in Ziegler's defense is that at least one witness who was staying at a motel facing the back of the furniture store heard gunshots within the store at the same time a police vehicle was parked outside the store. According to this witness all of this occured at least twenty minutes before Tommy Ziegler himself stumbled out of the store, wounded and attempting to get help for his family.

It should be noted that in my opinion the prosecutor interviewed for this case is one of the most closed minded attorneys ever interviewed on UM leading me to believe how in depth he has actually researched this case beyond the original version of the events the state had stood behind for years. I firmly believe from what I've seen and read that Tommy Ziegler is innocent and was the victim of a pre-meditated setup on the night his family was killed.

This set-up in my opinion involved Charlie Mays, his friend Felton Thomas, Ed Williams and possibly some members of justice department in Ziegler's hometown of Winter Garden, Florida. It has been established that there was quite a bit of bad blood between Ziegler and the judge who sat on the bench for his trial which may have tainted the legal proceedings.

However, I think there is a possibility of some collusion (although the question of motive would still be up in the air...) between Mays, Thomas and Williams in the killing of the Ziegler family. Williams worked for the Ziegler family at the furniture store so he had access to the building where the murders were committed. As I watched the segment the more I became aware of the possibly that this crime could have been orchestrated by Ed Williams to murder the son of one of the wealthiest families in town but their plans may have hit a few snags.

I am not all together convinced that Eunice Ziegler and her parents were the intended victims that night. I believe at least one of the murderers broke into the furniture store and were waiting for Ziegler's arrival at that store that evening along with Felton and Mays to ostensibly pick up a television set that Mays had ordered. I don't think they expected to run into Zeigler's wife or in-laws at the store that night and when they encountered them, they had to be disposed of prior to the arrival of Ziegler.

When Ziegler entered the store a short while later they attempted to murder him as well but he proved a much more formidable foe they they had thought. He wrestled with the men throughout the store and was able to kill one of them in this struggle before being shot himself.

The other murderers then escaped the store leaving Mays behind and Ziegler left for dead. When it was learned that Tommy Ziegler had in fact survived the altercation I believe "plan B" was put into effect which was to frame Ziegler for the murders of his family.

Huskerz85 · 01-10-2007, 06:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkDante

I just watched this case again about five minutes ago because its been awhile since I've seen it and I did leave out some important information. Besides his wife and in-laws there was a fourth victim in the Furniture Store Murders, a black man by the name of Charlie Mays. There was also a witness/possible accomplice to the crime by the name of Ed Williams.

On the night of the murder, Williams happened to be in posession of the gun that was used to murder Ziegler's in-laws. The same night, a short time after the murders he turned the weapon over to a police officer he happened upon on the side of the road saying that Tommy Ziegler had given him the gun that evening for "safe keeping".

However evidence later surfaced that the gun was in fact purchased by Ed Williams himself several weeks earlier. Willaims alleges he originally purchased the gun for his friend Ziegler (who after the murders turned it over to him). However, there is no way to tell if Ziegler was ever in posession of the weapon as the man who initally sold the weapon only remembered dealing with Ed Williams.

Charlie Mays as well becomes a pivotal focal point in the investigation as authorities believe that Ziegler lured Mays into the store and murdered him and then shot himself so he could frame Mays for the triple homicide as well as the attempt on his own life. The problem with this theory is some conflicting reports by other witnesses who were not called to testify at the Ziegler trial.

Two witnesses claim they saw five suspicious vehicles (not two as reported by the state) parked in front of the furniture store shortly before the murders. They also reported that a man resembling Charlie Mays was walking around the building as if he was casing the store prior to the murders which supports Ziegler's theory that his family was murdered during an interrupted robbery involving Mays and possibly some accomplices.

Finally some of the most disturbing evidence in Ziegler's defense is that at least one witness who was staying at a motel facing the back of the furniture store heard gunshots within the store at the same time a police vehicle was parked outside the store. According to this witness all of this occured at least twenty minutes before Tommy Ziegler himself stumbled out of the store, wounded and attempting to get help for his family.

It should be noted that in my opinion the prosecutor interviewed for this case is one of the most closed minded attorneys ever interviewed on UM leading me to believe how in depth he has actually researched this case beyond the original version of the events the state had stood behind for years. I firmly believe from what I've seen and read that Tommy Ziegler is innocent and was the victim of a pre-meditated setup on the night his family was killed.

This set-up in my opinion involved Charlie Mays, his friend Felton Thomas, Ed Williams and possibly some members of justice department in Ziegler's hometown of Winter Garden, Florida. It has been established that there was quite a bit of bad blood between Ziegler and the judge who sat on the bench for his trial which may have tainted the legal proceedings.

However, I think there is a possibility of some collusion (although the question of motive would still be up in the air...) between Mays, Thomas and Williams in the killing of the Ziegler family. Williams worked for the Ziegler family at the furniture store so he had access to the building where the murders were committed. As I watched the segment the more I became aware of the possibly that this crime could have been orchestrated by Ed Williams to murder the son of one of the wealthiest families in town but their plans may have hit a few snags.

I am not all together convinced that Eunice Ziegler and her parents were the intended victims that night. I believe at least one of the murderers broke into the furniture store and were waiting for Ziegler's arrival at that store that evening along with Felton and Mays to ostensibly pick up a television set that Mays had ordered. I don't think they expected to run into Zeigler's wife or in-laws at the store that night and when they encountered them, they had to be disposed of prior to the arrival of Ziegler.

When Ziegler entered the store a short while later they attempted to murder him as well but he proved a much more formidable foe they they had thought. He wrestled with the men throughout the store and was able to kill one of them in this struggle before being shot himself.

The other murderers then escaped the store leaving Mays behind and Ziegler left for dead. When it was learned that Tommy Ziegler had in fact survived the altercation I believe "plan B" was put into effect which was to frame Ziegler for the murders of his family.

I agree with this all the way and think that the FBI should look closely at how this case was handled before someone pardons Ziegler and/or clears him of all charges......

BuffaloBill · 01-10-2007, 08:50 PM

Let's see judge cullusion in the case, the judge blatenly tampers with the jury,
the judge it permitted on the stand when he was a previously an adversary of the defendent, prosecution hiding evidence that would have freed the defendent. Serveral jurors to THIS DAY swearing Zeigler is innocent. I think a caveman can draw the same conclusion on this case. The REAL unsolved mystery should be not that who committed this crime, but how the judge was allowed to get away with these attracities in a modern day trail. Kadrmus15
that's a great point you raise that they havent executed him yet. I think that could be the most dambing evidence of all the he is innocent. What other cases can anyone think of where a person has been on death row going 4 DECADES ?

kadrmas15 · 01-10-2007, 09:00 PM

Yes the witness at the hotel said they saw a police vehicle parked outside the store with a police man standing outside of the police car with his gun pointed towards the furniture store BEFORE shots were fired inside the store. Apperantly when the witness who I believe was a young teen at the time and his family went to the police with their story they were told their tesitmony was not needed and that they would get a free trip to Florida if they kept their noses out of the case.

The police chief of a nearby town was seen in uniform and on duty drinking coffee in a cafe across the street from Ziegler's furniture store which was in a different jurisdiction from the police chief. Why was the police chief there? The judge who shouldnt even have been on the case in the first place overrode the jury's recommendation for a life sentence and sentenced Ziegler to death and it is almost unheard of in Florida for a judge to override a jury's recommendation.

Apperantly several months before the murders Ziegler and the judge had been on opposite sides of a dispute. The dispute involved a black business owner and another business owner who was white. The white business owner was trying to get the black business owner shut down because he was cutting in on his business and becauseh e didnt like black people. The judge was a character witness for the white man while Ziegler fought for and was a character witness for the black man. Because in large part of Ziegler's efforts the black business owner was allowed to keep his business. Supposedly members of the establishment in Ziegler's town and county which was Orange county, Florida were furious at him for what he did.

The Orange County Sheriff's Department which does not have a clean history botched the case and destroyed and mishandled key evidence. This case reeks of corruption and prosecutor and judge misconduct. Ziegler should have never even been charged let alone tried and convicted. I am seriously considering writing to Tommy Ziegler just to let him know I support him and believe in his innocence.

Ziegler has been on death row since 1976 and is the 8th longest serving death row inmate in Florida. Ziegler has had a federal stay of execution since 1986. I even think the state of Florida probably thinks Ziegler is innocent but doesnt want to release him because it would make the state look bad.

Lets not forget that the police chief out of his jurisdiction wrote the first police report and then this was kept out of the trial. At the trial this same police chief was a witness for the prosecution and contradicted his own police report several times AKA he lied on the stand.

SP4CE INV4DERZ · 01-10-2007, 11:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kadrmas15

Yes, I believe Tommy Ziegler is innocent.

I am just curious, are there any final appeal cases you think are guilty? I'm not sure about this one tho, it's not one of my favs, however I do think he was most likely innocent from watching the case once or twice.

kadrmas15 · 01-11-2007, 12:02 AM

Well Space Invaderz I seemed to sense some dissent in your attitude. I am one that just tends to side with the defendents in cases like this after I look at all the facts. I happen to think Dr. MacDonald and Tommy Ziegler are innocent that does not mean I think literally that anyone that says "I'm innocent" is innocent. I look at the facts and come off with my own judgement. At least you think Ziegler is probably innocent. There have been some where I think the person probably did it. Tim McCluer was probably one where I thought he may have done it. However the evidence was not there and because of this he was never charged. I believe Mark Nichols and Paul Pollis probably killed their wives. But in terms of people that were already in prison trying to clear their names I believe Dr. MacDonald and Tommy Ziegler to be innocent and I also believed Larry Race to be innocent. Stuart Heaton I had a little more doubt about but he is probably innocent too. But Heaton was probably the one where I was most doubtful of his innocent. Basically what I am wondering is why it bothers you so much that I think that there might actually be innocent people in prison?

SP4CE INV4DERZ · 01-11-2007, 12:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kadrmas15

Well Space Invaderz I seemed to sense some dissent in your attitude. I am one that just tends to side with the defendents in cases like this after I look at all the facts. I happen to think Dr. MacDonald and Tommy Ziegler are innocent that does not mean I think literally that anyone that says "I'm innocent" is innocent. I look at the facts and come off with my own judgement. At least you think Ziegler is probably innocent. There have been some where I think the person probably did it. Tim McCluer was probably one where I thought he may have done it. However the evidence was not there and because of this he was never charged. I believe Mark Nichols and Paul Pollis probably killed their wives. But in terms of people that were already in prison trying to clear their names I believe Dr. MacDonald and Tommy Ziegler to be innocent and I also believed Larry Race to be innocent. Stuart Heaton I had a little more doubt about but he is probably innocent too. But Heaton was probably the one where I was most doubtful of his innocent. Basically what I am wondering is why it bothers you so much that I think that there might actually be innocent people in prison?

Gee, like I said I was just curious.
Here we go again, more of you bringing Race and MacDonald to the convo. So you think they are innocent? OMG I haven't read that yet

kadrmas15 · 01-11-2007, 12:32 AM

Haha, well Space Invaderz I am glad to see you have a sense of humor at least. Sorry I did come off a little snappy to you in my response above. To answer your question I believe Ziegler is innocent. Even you sounded like you were leaning that way. At the very least even you would admit that the judge had no business in that case considering his personal dislike of Mr. Ziegler and his jury tampering and other things. The case just stunk.

SP4CE INV4DERZ · 01-11-2007, 12:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kadrmas15

Haha, well Space Invaderz I am glad to see you have a sense of humor at least. Sorry I did come off a little snappy to you in my response above. To answer your question I believe Ziegler is innocent. Even you sounded like you were leaning that way. At the very least even you would admit that the judge had no business in that case considering his personal dislike of Mr. Ziegler and his jury tampering and other things. The case just stunk.

I don't really know about Ziegler, I don't think the guy is guilty but I'm not sure I remember it a great deal for whatever reason it's not one of my favs. So I don't watch it alot but if what you say is true about the judge and the jury tampering and what not, then it does indeed stink. Perhaps I'll re-watch it soon and see.

DarkDante · 01-11-2007, 12:54 AM

It should be noted that before UM took on a "Final Appeal" case they usually made the subject submit to a polygraph test and it is also likely that they conducted their own research on the appellant before taking on the case.

They did not pluck these cases out of the air or sought to lend a voice to anyone who cried "I'm innocent". The cases they sought out to profile for their "Final Appeal" segment were mired in controversy which is quite obvious given the plethora of varying opinions we see on this site.

To be even-handed though in my opinion once UM decided to take on a "Final Appeals" case they usually tended to lean more towards the subjects' innocence then his guilt trying to portray the subject in the best possible light. In some cases overzealous investigators and prosecutors also did not help their cause at all by coming off as very cold and unemotional in these segments.

Being married to a district attorney, I am aware that in that line of work you have to mantain a somewhat stoic demeanor. However, on a television program sometimes that type of attitude alienates the viewer. I can think of at least two cases (Tommy Ziegler and Glen Consagra) where the comments of the prosecutor totally rubbed me the wrong way and really had me thinking that this guy truly can't see the forest from the trees.

To wrap this up I think that the "Final Appeal" segments are among the best produced segments of the entire series. I think I have most of them on videotape and from what I've seen, I'd say 75% of the cases the subject may have gotten a raw deal. I'm not saying all of the subjects of these cases are innocent but UM did amass an impressive record of choosing "Final Appeals" cases that shortly after they were aired on UM, the inital guilty verdict was overturned.

That being said I would say based on probability alone, there is enough reasonable doubt in most of these cases to at least grant the subject a new trial if not out and out convinced me that the subject is innocent.

kadrmas15 · 01-11-2007, 12:56 AM

Well Space Invaderz the segment is good b ut I would also recommend you type in the words Tommy Ziegler into any search engine and you can find tons of info on this case. You will see how dirty this case is. Even someone that thought he was guilty would admit the case was not properly handled. That alone should get him a re-trial.

kadrmas15 · 01-11-2007, 12:58 AM

I couldnt agree with you more DD. The biggest problem with the prosecutors in those segments is they came off sounding like Nancy Grace. I mean just assuming that if someone is charged that they are automatically guilty and that there is no way they could have been wrong and in some cases basically saying they didnt care if they might b e wrong.

01-06-2007, 12:52 AM	#1
Huskerz85 Member Forum Regular Join Date: Dec 31, 2006 Location: Westeros Posts: 740	Florida Furniture Store Murders I remember this one case and the only reason I remember it, is because we did a somewhat broad overview of it while discussing capital punishment (am a former Criminal Justice Major) The place was in Florida......the time was anywhere from the mid 60's, to late 70's.....just can't remember. Anyways, one night there was a break in at a Furniture store.....the proprieter and his wife were murdered.....the police arrested the son-in-law of the couple whose name was 'Tommy' something or other......he got put on death row and I think may have gotten his setence commuted or switched. One of the other things I remember....is that there was a judge in this case who seemed to have a grudge or something of that sort against 'Tommy'.... Anyways, if someone knows the case I'm talkin about and knows what happened....by all means, respond

01-06-2007, 03:51 AM	#2
DarkDante Member Senior Member Join Date: Jul 27, 2002 Posts: 1,569	This case is very very similar to the case of Dr. Jeffrey MacDonald which has been much discussed here. Tommy Ziegler was a prosperous businessman who owned and operated a furniture store in Florida in the 70s. Authorities claim that on Christmas Eve 1975 Ziegler murdered his wife and his in-laws in the furniture store. Ziegler was subsequently tried, convicted and sentenced to death for this crime. Ziegler however mantains his innocence and claims that three black men were attempting to rob the store that night and murdered his family in the process. Ziegler was also wounded during the robbery however authorities feel his wounds were not in line with the murders of his family (ie: why kill three people and leave one alive?) Indeed the people who Ziegler alleged murdered his family were in the store that night but they claim that it was Ziegler who tried to entice them to break into the store after the murders were committed in order to frame them for the crime. They said Ziegler lured them to the location with a promise of picking up some merchandise and while they waited in the car for the merchandise to arrive, Ziegler had them handle the gun used to kill his family in order to frame them for the crime. Ziegler mantains this is nothing more then a fabrication by the individuals responsible for his families' murder. There is also some evidence to suggest a cover-up by the police department at the time including concealing certain pieces of evidence from Ziegler's defense team which may have helped set him free. Ziegler's request for DNA testing which may have proven his innocence has so far been denied. However Ziegler has still not been executed and is persuing other methods of proving his innocence. More info can be found here: http://wfla.tbo.com/may/dna.htm http://www.commondreams.org/views04/1228-23.htm

01-09-2007, 02:22 PM	#3
kadrmas15 Retired from Board 03/03/11 Senior Member Join Date: Mar 11, 2006 Location: Minnesota Posts: 1,910	Yes, I believe Tommy Ziegler is innocent and I hope he does win his release someday. Ziegler is 61 now so I hope he can get released and live some free life. Ziegler has been on death row for nearly 30 and a half years. Interesting they havent executed him. Personally, I think the state probably knows he is innocent and is keeping him in prison because it would look bad to release him. There is so much info on this case on the internet. So much info the police covered up and stuff. Just incredible. The judge that was on the case shouldnt have been on there in the first place because him and Ziegler had not got along before the murders. The judge actually overrode the jury when the jury recommended a life sentence. Apperantly back in 76, the jury was actually split 6 to acquitt, 6 to convict and according to a woman who was on that jury the jurors that wanted to acquitt were worn down and bullied around by the jurors that wanted to convict. One by one the jurors that wanted to acquitt, changed their votes. However there was one hold out woman who refused to change her vote. The judge was worried that there would be a mis trial because of her refusal to convict. So the judge called this woman's doctor and told him to put her on valium because she was being uncooperative. Well the woman was under the influence of valium after that and she had never taken it before and she was unable to keep up her demeanor and changed her vote. She to this day believes Ziegler is innocent. Another juror also years after the trial admitted he had been under the influence of valium during the trial as well and that he too believed Ziegler to be innocent.

01-10-2007, 05:28 PM	#4
DarkDante Member Senior Member Join Date: Jul 27, 2002 Posts: 1,569	I just watched this case again about five minutes ago because its been awhile since I've seen it and I did leave out some important information. Besides his wife and in-laws there was a fourth victim in the Furniture Store Murders, a black man by the name of Charlie Mays. There was also a witness/possible accomplice to the crime by the name of Ed Williams. On the night of the murder, Williams happened to be in posession of the gun that was used to murder Ziegler's in-laws. The same night, a short time after the murders he turned the weapon over to a police officer he happened upon on the side of the road saying that Tommy Ziegler had given him the gun that evening for "safe keeping". However evidence later surfaced that the gun was in fact purchased by Ed Williams himself several weeks earlier. Willaims alleges he originally purchased the gun for his friend Ziegler (who after the murders turned it over to him). However, there is no way to tell if Ziegler was ever in posession of the weapon as the man who initally sold the weapon only remembered dealing with Ed Williams. Charlie Mays as well becomes a pivotal focal point in the investigation as authorities believe that Ziegler lured Mays into the store and murdered him and then shot himself so he could frame Mays for the triple homicide as well as the attempt on his own life. The problem with this theory is some conflicting reports by other witnesses who were not called to testify at the Ziegler trial. Two witnesses claim they saw five suspicious vehicles (not two as reported by the state) parked in front of the furniture store shortly before the murders. They also reported that a man resembling Charlie Mays was walking around the building as if he was casing the store prior to the murders which supports Ziegler's theory that his family was murdered during an interrupted robbery involving Mays and possibly some accomplices. Finally some of the most disturbing evidence in Ziegler's defense is that at least one witness who was staying at a motel facing the back of the furniture store heard gunshots within the store at the same time a police vehicle was parked outside the store. According to this witness all of this occured at least twenty minutes before Tommy Ziegler himself stumbled out of the store, wounded and attempting to get help for his family. It should be noted that in my opinion the prosecutor interviewed for this case is one of the most closed minded attorneys ever interviewed on UM leading me to believe how in depth he has actually researched this case beyond the original version of the events the state had stood behind for years. I firmly believe from what I've seen and read that Tommy Ziegler is innocent and was the victim of a pre-meditated setup on the night his family was killed. This set-up in my opinion involved Charlie Mays, his friend Felton Thomas, Ed Williams and possibly some members of justice department in Ziegler's hometown of Winter Garden, Florida. It has been established that there was quite a bit of bad blood between Ziegler and the judge who sat on the bench for his trial which may have tainted the legal proceedings. However, I think there is a possibility of some collusion (although the question of motive would still be up in the air...) between Mays, Thomas and Williams in the killing of the Ziegler family. Williams worked for the Ziegler family at the furniture store so he had access to the building where the murders were committed. As I watched the segment the more I became aware of the possibly that this crime could have been orchestrated by Ed Williams to murder the son of one of the wealthiest families in town but their plans may have hit a few snags. I am not all together convinced that Eunice Ziegler and her parents were the intended victims that night. I believe at least one of the murderers broke into the furniture store and were waiting for Ziegler's arrival at that store that evening along with Felton and Mays to ostensibly pick up a television set that Mays had ordered. I don't think they expected to run into Zeigler's wife or in-laws at the store that night and when they encountered them, they had to be disposed of prior to the arrival of Ziegler. When Ziegler entered the store a short while later they attempted to murder him as well but he proved a much more formidable foe they they had thought. He wrestled with the men throughout the store and was able to kill one of them in this struggle before being shot himself. The other murderers then escaped the store leaving Mays behind and Ziegler left for dead. When it was learned that Tommy Ziegler had in fact survived the altercation I believe "plan B" was put into effect which was to frame Ziegler for the murders of his family.

01-10-2007, 08:50 PM	#6
BuffaloBill Member Frequent Poster Join Date: Mar 07, 2004 Location: Cheektowaga(Buffalo),NY Posts: 439	Let's see judge cullusion in the case, the judge blatenly tampers with the jury, the judge it permitted on the stand when he was a previously an adversary of the defendent, prosecution hiding evidence that would have freed the defendent. Serveral jurors to THIS DAY swearing Zeigler is innocent. I think a caveman can draw the same conclusion on this case. The REAL unsolved mystery should be not that who committed this crime, but how the judge was allowed to get away with these attracities in a modern day trail. Kadrmus15 that's a great point you raise that they havent executed him yet. I think that could be the most dambing evidence of all the he is innocent. What other cases can anyone think of where a person has been on death row going 4 DECADES ?

01-10-2007, 09:00 PM	#7
kadrmas15 Retired from Board 03/03/11 Senior Member Join Date: Mar 11, 2006 Location: Minnesota Posts: 1,910	Yes the witness at the hotel said they saw a police vehicle parked outside the store with a police man standing outside of the police car with his gun pointed towards the furniture store BEFORE shots were fired inside the store. Apperantly when the witness who I believe was a young teen at the time and his family went to the police with their story they were told their tesitmony was not needed and that they would get a free trip to Florida if they kept their noses out of the case. The police chief of a nearby town was seen in uniform and on duty drinking coffee in a cafe across the street from Ziegler's furniture store which was in a different jurisdiction from the police chief. Why was the police chief there? The judge who shouldnt even have been on the case in the first place overrode the jury's recommendation for a life sentence and sentenced Ziegler to death and it is almost unheard of in Florida for a judge to override a jury's recommendation. Apperantly several months before the murders Ziegler and the judge had been on opposite sides of a dispute. The dispute involved a black business owner and another business owner who was white. The white business owner was trying to get the black business owner shut down because he was cutting in on his business and becauseh e didnt like black people. The judge was a character witness for the white man while Ziegler fought for and was a character witness for the black man. Because in large part of Ziegler's efforts the black business owner was allowed to keep his business. Supposedly members of the establishment in Ziegler's town and county which was Orange county, Florida were furious at him for what he did. The Orange County Sheriff's Department which does not have a clean history botched the case and destroyed and mishandled key evidence. This case reeks of corruption and prosecutor and judge misconduct. Ziegler should have never even been charged let alone tried and convicted. I am seriously considering writing to Tommy Ziegler just to let him know I support him and believe in his innocence. Ziegler has been on death row since 1976 and is the 8th longest serving death row inmate in Florida. Ziegler has had a federal stay of execution since 1986. I even think the state of Florida probably thinks Ziegler is innocent but doesnt want to release him because it would make the state look bad. Lets not forget that the police chief out of his jurisdiction wrote the first police report and then this was kept out of the trial. At the trial this same police chief was a witness for the prosecution and contradicted his own police report several times AKA he lied on the stand.

01-11-2007, 12:02 AM	#9
kadrmas15 Retired from Board 03/03/11 Senior Member Join Date: Mar 11, 2006 Location: Minnesota Posts: 1,910	Well Space Invaderz I seemed to sense some dissent in your attitude. I am one that just tends to side with the defendents in cases like this after I look at all the facts. I happen to think Dr. MacDonald and Tommy Ziegler are innocent that does not mean I think literally that anyone that says "I'm innocent" is innocent. I look at the facts and come off with my own judgement. At least you think Ziegler is probably innocent. There have been some where I think the person probably did it. Tim McCluer was probably one where I thought he may have done it. However the evidence was not there and because of this he was never charged. I believe Mark Nichols and Paul Pollis probably killed their wives. But in terms of people that were already in prison trying to clear their names I believe Dr. MacDonald and Tommy Ziegler to be innocent and I also believed Larry Race to be innocent. Stuart Heaton I had a little more doubt about but he is probably innocent too. But Heaton was probably the one where I was most doubtful of his innocent. Basically what I am wondering is why it bothers you so much that I think that there might actually be innocent people in prison?

01-11-2007, 12:32 AM	#11
kadrmas15 Retired from Board 03/03/11 Senior Member Join Date: Mar 11, 2006 Location: Minnesota Posts: 1,910	Haha, well Space Invaderz I am glad to see you have a sense of humor at least. Sorry I did come off a little snappy to you in my response above. To answer your question I believe Ziegler is innocent. Even you sounded like you were leaning that way. At the very least even you would admit that the judge had no business in that case considering his personal dislike of Mr. Ziegler and his jury tampering and other things. The case just stunk.

01-11-2007, 12:54 AM	#13
DarkDante Member Senior Member Join Date: Jul 27, 2002 Posts: 1,569	It should be noted that before UM took on a "Final Appeal" case they usually made the subject submit to a polygraph test and it is also likely that they conducted their own research on the appellant before taking on the case. They did not pluck these cases out of the air or sought to lend a voice to anyone who cried "I'm innocent". The cases they sought out to profile for their "Final Appeal" segment were mired in controversy which is quite obvious given the plethora of varying opinions we see on this site. To be even-handed though in my opinion once UM decided to take on a "Final Appeals" case they usually tended to lean more towards the subjects' innocence then his guilt trying to portray the subject in the best possible light. In some cases overzealous investigators and prosecutors also did not help their cause at all by coming off as very cold and unemotional in these segments. Being married to a district attorney, I am aware that in that line of work you have to mantain a somewhat stoic demeanor. However, on a television program sometimes that type of attitude alienates the viewer. I can think of at least two cases (Tommy Ziegler and Glen Consagra) where the comments of the prosecutor totally rubbed me the wrong way and really had me thinking that this guy truly can't see the forest from the trees. To wrap this up I think that the "Final Appeal" segments are among the best produced segments of the entire series. I think I have most of them on videotape and from what I've seen, I'd say 75% of the cases the subject may have gotten a raw deal. I'm not saying all of the subjects of these cases are innocent but UM did amass an impressive record of choosing "Final Appeals" cases that shortly after they were aired on UM, the inital guilty verdict was overturned. That being said I would say based on probability alone, there is enough reasonable doubt in most of these cases to at least grant the subject a new trial if not out and out convinced me that the subject is innocent.

01-11-2007, 12:56 AM	#14
kadrmas15 Retired from Board 03/03/11 Senior Member Join Date: Mar 11, 2006 Location: Minnesota Posts: 1,910	Well Space Invaderz the segment is good b ut I would also recommend you type in the words Tommy Ziegler into any search engine and you can find tons of info on this case. You will see how dirty this case is. Even someone that thought he was guilty would admit the case was not properly handled. That alone should get him a re-trial.

01-11-2007, 12:58 AM	#15
kadrmas15 Retired from Board 03/03/11 Senior Member Join Date: Mar 11, 2006 Location: Minnesota Posts: 1,910	I couldnt agree with you more DD. The biggest problem with the prosecutors in those segments is they came off sounding like Nancy Grace. I mean just assuming that if someone is charged that they are automatically guilty and that there is no way they could have been wrong and in some cases basically saying they didnt care if they might b e wrong.