The nature of the beast - Sitcoms Online Message Boards

Bootsy Whoosh · 09-21-2001, 06:27 PM

I have an interesting question that I am wrestling with.

The question is: Are animals and humans different in important ways? How or why not? Do you feel humans have a right to certain things that animals do not?

I have to think about this for an animal rights class I am taking. I am finding, that as I do more research, my views are only getting more convoluted and confused. All sides present convincing arguments.

I am interested in hearing what you all think. I am surprised, personally, at how hard these question were to answer when I really started to think about them deeply.

(Disclaimer: I won't throw red paint on you if I see you wearing a fur coat, lol.

)

coily2 · 09-21-2001, 07:36 PM

I don't think that all animals appreciate monogamy like humans do. Sure, some species do, but the vast number of them do not spend their entire life with one mating partner, nor do they repect the family unit like humans do. Even herd animals send their young out after a certain amount of time, especially if their offspring is an alpha. We don't see behavior like that in our society. we value the family unit. While some cultures aren't monogomous, most of them value their offspring. Most would never contimplate mating with their offspring or sending them somewhere else since they pose a threat. Am I making any sense? I think it is hard to convery this thought into words. Basically, I think that "family values" are unique to humans.

Bootsy Whoosh · 09-21-2001, 07:43 PM

Yes, I understand what you are saying coily, and thanks for your response. I hadn't thought about "family values".

JMPolniaczek15 · 09-21-2001, 07:51 PM

Whoohoo! I've been waitng for a topic like this to pop up. I really belive that animals do and should have rights and that they should not be used for meat, fur, experiments, etc. I think that they are our fellow creatures and deserve humane treatment. Animals are a lot more like humans than people realize. They have strong emotional bonds to humans and other animals, and experience very "human" emotions - grief, fear, joy, anxiety, etc. And coily2, I'm going to have to disagree with you. Animals, especially apes, do have a strong family structure. They look after their young, travel together, mourn the death of a family member, and care for their elderly. In short, I think that all animals deserve a lot more respect than they get.

Oh, and good luck with your class, Bootsy!

------------------
"You're old, you're ugly, you live with it!" - Jo
*************************
"Why would you want to be popular? You have to smile and talk to peple and all that stuff!" - Jo
*************************
Rose: So, Jerry, ever dressed up like a horse?
Jerry: No, but thank you for asking!
*************************
"Get back here, you deceitful little Sicilian gecko!" - Dorothy Zbornak
*************************
"I've got PMS and I've got a gun - any questions?" - Jinny Extead
**************************
May God be with the friends and family of those whose lives were lost in this terrible tragedy.

[This message has been edited by JMPolniaczek15 (edited 09-21-2001).]

coily2 · 09-21-2001, 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JMPolniaczek15:
And coily2, I'm going to have to disagree with you. Animals, especially apes, do have a strong family structure. They look after their young, travel together, mourn the death of a family member, and care for their elderly

that's true. I didn't take primates into account as I wrote that. For some reason, I just kept thinking of lions and how they kick their young out of their pride and how imbreeding takes place, etc. This may further the argument that humans are evovled from apes, but that is an entirely different discussion!

Bootsy Whoosh · 09-22-2001, 01:33 AM

Ok....here have been some of my thoughts.

First, I was thinking that humans are different from animals because we have a much greater capacity for cognitive learning and understanding, and because we have morals. But then I wondered, what about human beings that are disabled, that may not have a high cognitive ability, that may not be able to understand society's morals? What about them? Clearly they are human, and clearly there is something about them that sets them apart from animals...but what is it? Seems like I'm barking up the wrong tree with this idea....or....it is the mere potential for these things that sets humans apart?

Then I was thinking that humans don't have instincts. But I think it could be easily argued that humans do have some instincts, but maybe not as many as animals. I think animals rely more on instincts but that humans rely more on learning.

Then I was thinking...researchers say that the great apes laugh, make tools, help each other over obstacles, make up after fighting, lose their tempers, etc. etc. etc. But then I was thinking, what if all animals do these things, but we as humans simply can't perceive it? What if the very nature of the fact that humans and apes are so similar is the only reason we can recognize this behavior in them, since it is so similar to our own behavior?

I am inclined to answer this question that, yes, humans are different from animals in significant ways. But I am not quite sure why. Of course I think that animals should be treated humanely...I mean I want to be a vet, so I love animals....but still...I don't think it's wrong to use animals for food. I am amazed at how hard this question is for me to answer...

One thing that intrigued me....as luck would have it, I had to read 3 articles for my Humanities course and reflect upon "what does it mean to be human" in relation to the articles. One of the articles was about the great apes and about the effort to get great apes classified as something other than "animal", to have their rights protected by law, etc. Among other things, they don't want apes to be used for any kind of medical or scientific experimentation. But one of the researchers at the Yerkes Primate Center in Atlanta said "If being humanlike is the criterion, then of course we humans should always come first."

I found that very interesting. Is this evidence that humans are something more than mere animals? Or is this simply a reflection of human ego?

I hope I am not boring anyone with this. I think it could be an interesting conversation, and I am interested in hearing viewpoints different from my own.

Bootsy Whoosh · 09-22-2001, 01:54 AM

Ok....maybe I am on to something here....I'm thinking that...humans form complex societies. Society is where we get our morals from. (At least that's what I believe....hey, I'm a sociologist, what do you expect?

)

So the thing that sets humans apart from animals is that we form these societies and that we have morals that help to dictate our behavior. Humans obey society's norms and mores, and we have a set of values formed from society and ourselves. And even people who refuse to obey society-at-large's norms, they belong to a subculture which basically a society in and of itself, it is just different from the dominant society.

Animals can also form societies, but I do not think they are as complex. Animals clearly carry out social roles within their societies, but they generally do not willfully break out of their predefined social roles, whereas many humans do. I don't think animals could really be said to have morals, either. In human society, morals are set by the people who have power, whether that power comes from money, wealth, political standing, enforcement of the morals as in police officers, or religion. Animals who have power or domination only cause fear and submission in the others. They do not dictate morals.

I don't know....at least some of this is making some sense to me. Feel free to give me your input, whether you agree or disagree. For this class, right now, really the only question I have to answer is "are humans different from animals in important ways? how or why?" I don't have to address animals rights at this time, I just threw that in because I was interested in hearing what people said, plus since this is an animal rights course, I'm sure we'll be getting to that eventually.

Also, don't think I am against animal rights or anything. The only thing I am exploring right now is whether humans are different and why.

Lynn · 09-22-2001, 03:36 AM

I have not thought about this nearly as much as you have Bootsy, lol. One thing that came to my mind is that humans have a written language and animals do not. Yes, both animals and humans communicate and such, but the written language is unique to humans. Our knowledge can be written down for future generations, it does not have to be personally taught. We can store vast amounts of information in a place other than our brains. This gives humans certain advantages over animals. But does it make humans superior or mean that humans have more rights? I don’t know.

I saw the coolest thing on TV the other day. It sort of pertains to this topic because it shows how animals ARE like humans. Someone was shooting a home video of the elephants in the zoo. A tire had been hung from a rope to give the elephants something to play with and one elephant had managed to get his foot stuck in the tire. He became very frightened and instantly all the other elephants came running over to him to try to help. A couple of the elephants worked trying to get his foot free. Others surrounded him in order to calm and comfort him. They did not stop until his foot came free. I just thought that was really cool.

coily2 · 09-22-2001, 09:55 AM

I also want to add that I feel that animals are superior to humans in the way that they are not as judgemental. In every human society, from the Australian aboriginies (spelled?) to our society here in the US, we often judge each other based on physical appearances such as weight, hair, clothing, etc. We also judge each other on personality, but most humans are guilty of pre-perceived notions on another human based on physical appearance. We try to appease each other's judgements. We are obsessed with the perception of ourselves. I don't think as much of that goes on in the animal world. At least I have never heard of a gorilla starving herself because she thinks her hips are getting a little big. I have seen on Animal Planet and through my work as a volunteer for a cat rescue shelter situations where a less than perfect cat/leopard (maybe blind, maybe missing a tail, maybe walking with a noticable limp) is protected by the community a little more than a healthy cat.

Because it is a fairly logical argument that humans have a greater intellectual capacity than animals, it is absolutly possible that we have been given more reasoning and logic which can turn into judgement.

I've actually been thinking about this subject for a little bit, myself Bootsy. About a month ago, I had to put my dog to sleep. I asked a friend of mine who is a born again Christian and is always trying to convert me if he thinks my dog will go to heaven. He said no, because dogs don't have souls in the same capacity that humans do. I disagree with this, but it got me thinking. Christianity believes that you go to heaven based on faith. Are animals capable of a spirtual understanding? Even more so, are animals capable of a choice between good and evil, such as humans are? Is stealing food from each other in the animal kingdom a sin, or is it just a survival instinct? Is there a difference? I don't know. I can talk myself in circles about this all day long.

Bootsy Whoosh · 09-22-2001, 12:23 PM

Thanks coily2 and Lynn, you both brought up some very interesting points that I hadn't thought of before. Actually, I had thought about the fact that animals aren't judgemental. See that's what interesting about this question....it's just about if there are differences, not whether humans are superior or not. Because I think animals are "superior" when it comes to not judging. And that was very interesting what you brought up about can animals have a spiritual understanding! And how we write things down for future generations. Good good stuff, I'm getting so excited, I feel almost smart now instead of so confused like I was earlier! Thanks everyone! Feel free to add more if you think of anything.

[This message has been edited by Bootsy Whoosh (edited 09-22-2001).]

JMPolniaczek15 · 09-22-2001, 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bootsy Whoosh:

Then I was thinking...researchers say that the great apes laugh, make tools, help each other over obstacles, make up after fighting, lose their tempers, etc. etc. etc. But then I was thinking, what if all animals do these things, but we as humans simply can't perceive it? What if the very nature of the fact that humans and apes are so similar is the only reason we can recognize this behavior in them, since it is so similar to our own behavior?

You've brought up a good point there, Bootsy.

------------------
"You're old, you're ugly, you live with it!" - Jo
*************************
"Why would you want to be popular? You have to smile and talk to peple and all that stuff!" - Jo
*************************
Rose: So, Jerry, ever dressed up like a horse?
Jerry: No, but thank you for asking!
*************************
"Get back here, you deceitful little Sicilian gecko!" - Dorothy Zbornak
*************************
"I've got PMS and I've got a gun - any questions?" - Jinny Extead
**************************
May God be with the friends and family of those whose lives were lost in this terrible tragedy.

09-21-2001, 06:27 PM	#1
Bootsy Whoosh Storms abrewin'... Senior Member Join Date: May 16, 2001 Location: The Alpha Quadrant, Sector 001 Posts: 2,104	The nature of the beast I have an interesting question that I am wrestling with. The question is: Are animals and humans different in important ways? How or why not? Do you feel humans have a right to certain things that animals do not? I have to think about this for an animal rights class I am taking. I am finding, that as I do more research, my views are only getting more convoluted and confused. All sides present convincing arguments. I am interested in hearing what you all think. I am surprised, personally, at how hard these question were to answer when I really started to think about them deeply. (Disclaimer: I won't throw red paint on you if I see you wearing a fur coat, lol. )

09-21-2001, 07:36 PM	#2
coily2 Member Forum Regular Join Date: Dec 28, 2000 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 969	I don't think that all animals appreciate monogamy like humans do. Sure, some species do, but the vast number of them do not spend their entire life with one mating partner, nor do they repect the family unit like humans do. Even herd animals send their young out after a certain amount of time, especially if their offspring is an alpha. We don't see behavior like that in our society. we value the family unit. While some cultures aren't monogomous, most of them value their offspring. Most would never contimplate mating with their offspring or sending them somewhere else since they pose a threat. Am I making any sense? I think it is hard to convery this thought into words. Basically, I think that "family values" are unique to humans.

09-21-2001, 07:43 PM	#3
Bootsy Whoosh Storms abrewin'... Senior Member Join Date: May 16, 2001 Location: The Alpha Quadrant, Sector 001 Posts: 2,104	Yes, I understand what you are saying coily, and thanks for your response. I hadn't thought about "family values".

09-21-2001, 07:51 PM	#4
JMPolniaczek15 Member Forum Regular Join Date: May 16, 2001 Location: Amongst the cornfields in Indiana... Posts: 706	Whoohoo! I've been waitng for a topic like this to pop up. I really belive that animals do and should have rights and that they should not be used for meat, fur, experiments, etc. I think that they are our fellow creatures and deserve humane treatment. Animals are a lot more like humans than people realize. They have strong emotional bonds to humans and other animals, and experience very "human" emotions - grief, fear, joy, anxiety, etc. And coily2, I'm going to have to disagree with you. Animals, especially apes, do have a strong family structure. They look after their young, travel together, mourn the death of a family member, and care for their elderly. In short, I think that all animals deserve a lot more respect than they get. Oh, and good luck with your class, Bootsy! ------------------ "You're old, you're ugly, you live with it!" - Jo *********************** "Why would you want to be popular? You have to smile and talk to peple and all that stuff!" - Jo ********************* Rose: So, Jerry, ever dressed up like a horse? Jerry: No, but thank you for asking! ********************* "Get back here, you deceitful little Sicilian gecko!" - Dorothy Zbornak ********************* "I've got PMS and I've got a gun - any questions?" - Jinny Extead ************************ May God be with the friends and family of those whose lives were lost in this terrible tragedy. [This message has been edited by JMPolniaczek15 (edited 09-21-2001).]

09-22-2001, 01:33 AM	#6
Bootsy Whoosh Storms abrewin'... Senior Member Join Date: May 16, 2001 Location: The Alpha Quadrant, Sector 001 Posts: 2,104	Ok....here have been some of my thoughts. First, I was thinking that humans are different from animals because we have a much greater capacity for cognitive learning and understanding, and because we have morals. But then I wondered, what about human beings that are disabled, that may not have a high cognitive ability, that may not be able to understand society's morals? What about them? Clearly they are human, and clearly there is something about them that sets them apart from animals...but what is it? Seems like I'm barking up the wrong tree with this idea....or....it is the mere potential for these things that sets humans apart? Then I was thinking that humans don't have instincts. But I think it could be easily argued that humans do have some instincts, but maybe not as many as animals. I think animals rely more on instincts but that humans rely more on learning. Then I was thinking...researchers say that the great apes laugh, make tools, help each other over obstacles, make up after fighting, lose their tempers, etc. etc. etc. But then I was thinking, what if all animals do these things, but we as humans simply can't perceive it? What if the very nature of the fact that humans and apes are so similar is the only reason we can recognize this behavior in them, since it is so similar to our own behavior? I am inclined to answer this question that, yes, humans are different from animals in significant ways. But I am not quite sure why. Of course I think that animals should be treated humanely...I mean I want to be a vet, so I love animals....but still...I don't think it's wrong to use animals for food. I am amazed at how hard this question is for me to answer... One thing that intrigued me....as luck would have it, I had to read 3 articles for my Humanities course and reflect upon "what does it mean to be human" in relation to the articles. One of the articles was about the great apes and about the effort to get great apes classified as something other than "animal", to have their rights protected by law, etc. Among other things, they don't want apes to be used for any kind of medical or scientific experimentation. But one of the researchers at the Yerkes Primate Center in Atlanta said "If being humanlike is the criterion, then of course we humans should always come first." I found that very interesting. Is this evidence that humans are something more than mere animals? Or is this simply a reflection of human ego? I hope I am not boring anyone with this. I think it could be an interesting conversation, and I am interested in hearing viewpoints different from my own.

09-22-2001, 01:54 AM	#7
Bootsy Whoosh Storms abrewin'... Senior Member Join Date: May 16, 2001 Location: The Alpha Quadrant, Sector 001 Posts: 2,104	Ok....maybe I am on to something here....I'm thinking that...humans form complex societies. Society is where we get our morals from. (At least that's what I believe....hey, I'm a sociologist, what do you expect? ) So the thing that sets humans apart from animals is that we form these societies and that we have morals that help to dictate our behavior. Humans obey society's norms and mores, and we have a set of values formed from society and ourselves. And even people who refuse to obey society-at-large's norms, they belong to a subculture which basically a society in and of itself, it is just different from the dominant society. Animals can also form societies, but I do not think they are as complex. Animals clearly carry out social roles within their societies, but they generally do not willfully break out of their predefined social roles, whereas many humans do. I don't think animals could really be said to have morals, either. In human society, morals are set by the people who have power, whether that power comes from money, wealth, political standing, enforcement of the morals as in police officers, or religion. Animals who have power or domination only cause fear and submission in the others. They do not dictate morals. I don't know....at least some of this is making some sense to me. Feel free to give me your input, whether you agree or disagree. For this class, right now, really the only question I have to answer is "are humans different from animals in important ways? how or why?" I don't have to address animals rights at this time, I just threw that in because I was interested in hearing what people said, plus since this is an animal rights course, I'm sure we'll be getting to that eventually. Also, don't think I am against animal rights or anything. The only thing I am exploring right now is whether humans are different and why.

09-22-2001, 03:36 AM	#8
Lynn Member Forum Regular Join Date: Apr 07, 2001 Location: Denver, Colorado Posts: 744	I have not thought about this nearly as much as you have Bootsy, lol. One thing that came to my mind is that humans have a written language and animals do not. Yes, both animals and humans communicate and such, but the written language is unique to humans. Our knowledge can be written down for future generations, it does not have to be personally taught. We can store vast amounts of information in a place other than our brains. This gives humans certain advantages over animals. But does it make humans superior or mean that humans have more rights? I don’t know. I saw the coolest thing on TV the other day. It sort of pertains to this topic because it shows how animals ARE like humans. Someone was shooting a home video of the elephants in the zoo. A tire had been hung from a rope to give the elephants something to play with and one elephant had managed to get his foot stuck in the tire. He became very frightened and instantly all the other elephants came running over to him to try to help. A couple of the elephants worked trying to get his foot free. Others surrounded him in order to calm and comfort him. They did not stop until his foot came free. I just thought that was really cool.

09-22-2001, 09:55 AM	#9
coily2 Member Forum Regular Join Date: Dec 28, 2000 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 969	I also want to add that I feel that animals are superior to humans in the way that they are not as judgemental. In every human society, from the Australian aboriginies (spelled?) to our society here in the US, we often judge each other based on physical appearances such as weight, hair, clothing, etc. We also judge each other on personality, but most humans are guilty of pre-perceived notions on another human based on physical appearance. We try to appease each other's judgements. We are obsessed with the perception of ourselves. I don't think as much of that goes on in the animal world. At least I have never heard of a gorilla starving herself because she thinks her hips are getting a little big. I have seen on Animal Planet and through my work as a volunteer for a cat rescue shelter situations where a less than perfect cat/leopard (maybe blind, maybe missing a tail, maybe walking with a noticable limp) is protected by the community a little more than a healthy cat. Because it is a fairly logical argument that humans have a greater intellectual capacity than animals, it is absolutly possible that we have been given more reasoning and logic which can turn into judgement. I've actually been thinking about this subject for a little bit, myself Bootsy. About a month ago, I had to put my dog to sleep. I asked a friend of mine who is a born again Christian and is always trying to convert me if he thinks my dog will go to heaven. He said no, because dogs don't have souls in the same capacity that humans do. I disagree with this, but it got me thinking. Christianity believes that you go to heaven based on faith. Are animals capable of a spirtual understanding? Even more so, are animals capable of a choice between good and evil, such as humans are? Is stealing food from each other in the animal kingdom a sin, or is it just a survival instinct? Is there a difference? I don't know. I can talk myself in circles about this all day long.

09-22-2001, 12:23 PM	#10
Bootsy Whoosh Storms abrewin'... Senior Member Join Date: May 16, 2001 Location: The Alpha Quadrant, Sector 001 Posts: 2,104	Thanks coily2 and Lynn, you both brought up some very interesting points that I hadn't thought of before. Actually, I had thought about the fact that animals aren't judgemental. See that's what interesting about this question....it's just about if there are differences, not whether humans are superior or not. Because I think animals are "superior" when it comes to not judging. And that was very interesting what you brought up about can animals have a spiritual understanding! And how we write things down for future generations. Good good stuff, I'm getting so excited, I feel almost smart now instead of so confused like I was earlier! Thanks everyone! Feel free to add more if you think of anything. [This message has been edited by Bootsy Whoosh (edited 09-22-2001).]